Zigzag Idiot and the ladder of Objective Reason

[DrewNows]

@Zigzag Idiot hmm ?  I was asking about how Leo and gurd each resonate with you personally (see the edit) 

i will however gladly watch the video there. 

The speaker isn’t anything special in how the sharing of all his opinions haha but whatever. 

strange at the end talking about if you don’t eat your egg someone else will ?‍♂️

But I love the talk on negative imagination ? 

Edited June 2, 2019 by DrewNows

[Zigzag Idiot]

 

@DrewNows There's an allegory in Shamanism about an entity referred to by different names - the indescribable force, the Eagle or the big bird in the sky which feeds on our awareness/consciousness. In the allegory it is said that when we begin to split our attention and observe ourselves (Witness consciousness) , that this makes our awareness unpalatable to the Eagle and afterward being left alone by this great force our awareness then begins to accumulate which has the effect of producing realizations never before experienced. This is what I relate Martin Butlers reference to someone else eating our egg. The egg is one's shadow ( personality/life experience) which when digested by ourselves causes one's frame of reference to grow in scope.

Regarding how Leo and Gurdjieff resonate with me personally-- The things I began listing about the Work translated and given through Gurdjieff are ideas which through personal verification has become very meaningful ideas to me. Leo refers to Ouspensky more than Gurdjieff but it's all pretty much the same Teaching. I haven't read a lot of Ralston and others but I see Leo taking bits here and there from different people/traditions which fit together which also gives it the taste of Ken Wilber's integral approach. I'm probably still short changing you on how I resonate personally with each. Maybe later I'll be able to better elaborate.

[DrewNows]

I didn’t have any expectations, thanks for sharing!

Interesting allegory. Glad to have Gurdjieff as a source 

[mandyjw]

14 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

                                                                                      Developing Will

To work on ones own capacity to do something just for the hell of it. To not need a reason and logic or emotion for initiating an act. This has been a practice of mine in the past coming from neoshamanic approach. They're called "not doing" exercises. In addition to helping develop Will, most of these practices also attack self importance.

• Each time you arrive home walk around the house three times before you enter.
• Spend a lot of time creating a piece of art. Destroy it as soon as it's finished.
• Load all your dishes, plates, bowls, glasses into the car and take them for a Sunday drive. Maybe even deliver a historical narrative concerning local landmarks as you drive past. It's no small feat to get everyone situated to where there are no rattles and everyone is secure.
• Intentionally say something stupid and shallow in a group of people. Role play an ignorant fool,,,
• Spend the first half of the day agreeing with everyone and the second half the day disagreeing with everyone.

 

 

 

I found this incredibly amusing and also how I've kind of always wanted to live my life, but I've always thought it was an indulgence of my lower self and my not taking life seriously enough, or at times I even thought it was a mental illness. 

[Zigzag Idiot]

 

@mandyjw I agree. They're hilarious notions. The awful state of mind I was enduring at the time was benifitted by the the absurdity of doing these. For those who don't have the luxury of time to devote, there are less time consuming ones. All but one of these practices came out of this book.

[Shin]

I always think your avatar is a stormtropper.

That has to be said

[Zigzag Idiot]

? It's a still shot taken out of a short piece of an old 8mm home movie. It shows me sitting in front of my father as we ride up the hill. Then he gets off the horse and just leaves me up on it by myself. I'll have to find a way to share some time. ? 

[DrewNows]

14 minutes ago, Shin said:

I always think your avatar is a stormtropper.

That has to be said

OMG i am guilty of this as well 

[Shin]

8 minutes ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

? It's a still shot taken out of a short piece of an old 8mm home movie. It shows me sitting in front of my father as we ride up the hill. Then he gets off the horse and just leaves me up on it by myself. I'll have to find a way to share some time. ? 

That's a lot of "I"

Have you done your Survival homework little devil ?

[now is forever]

what? it’s really cute - you where a really cute child @Zigzag Idiot

[Zigzag Idiot]

9 hours ago, Shin said:

That's a lot of "I"

Have you done your Survival homework little devil ?

Dont worry, I have a pronoun use permit thats good for 14 more years.

I've been pondering on the homework some all week. Have had a few ideas,,, a couple of them turned inside out.

[Zigzag Idiot]

@now is forever @Shin @DrewNows

StormTrooper summertime lunch replacement drink.

6-8 ounces of water

2 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar

1 tablespoon of lemon juice.

1 tea spoon of honey

1/2 teaspoon of cinnamon                        Adjust any ingredient as desired 

Edited June 3, 2019 by Zigzag Idiot

[Zigzag Idiot]

In an evolutionary sense, we're in a tight spot. We're out of control. With our delicate human bodies that don't stand up to nature like other animals, nature made us oversexed for survival as a species.

Some of us can't sit still. If we had tails we could dissipate the extra chi energy naturally like cats and dogs. Instead, the chi energy accumulates and circulates, feeds and pollutes the newly developed neocortex and frontal lobes with imagination resulting in the subjectivity of our spiritual sleep.

I don't know if this is true. I just made it up, partly. It's partly true anyhow.

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

        Im going to make a case for assigning value to the instinctive center that is equal to the intellectual and emotional center.   

I remember Leo mentioning in his last video how intellegent the instinctive centers are.  I think his comment was in reference to the function of the body and autonomic nervous system. 

 A bird building a nest is also a good example of the intelligence of this center. This innate knowledge that is carried in each specific species with their different kinds of nests. 

The speed of the nervous system and the animal instincts are another consideration. This is seen in car wrecks and disasters of various kinds. Or in a close call traffic incident when our animal instinct will suddenly make the fine adjustments necessary to steer the car through a gap of debree that has two inches to spare on each side at 60 mph. It happens faster than we can think. It is also faster than emotions. In the case of the near miss, we don't get scared or mad until we get down the road just a little.  If the debris in the road was caused by humans only after the fact do we start thing what we're going to say to the son-of-a-bitch that's responsible!!

The emotions are so much quicker than the intellect, that's why are temper gets us in trouble or makes a fool out of us. Having sensation in body awareness is a natural tool for counter balancing and balancing the intellectual emotional complex

   

The Belly Quality of Basic Trust

The presence of basic trust indicates that you have the innate sense that life is fundamentally benevolent, and that that benevolence exists independent of you and your actions. You will have this sense to the extent that your grounding in the universe has not been disturbed. The relative presence or absence of basic trust is a belly quality, something one’s whole being is either grounded in or not. The disturbance of basic trust is a significant factor in ego development because the perspective of ego is diametrically opposed to the sense of basic trust. The ego’s perspective arises out of a lack of this trust. It is based on distrust, on paranoia, on fear, on the conviction that you’re not going to be adequately taken care of and that the universe is not there to hold and take care of you in the ways that you need. This conviction causes you to believe that you have to engage in all kinds of manipulations and games to get your needs met and to make things work out. 

Facets of Unity, pg. 25    

Distinguishing Physical Sensation from Essential Substance

The capacity to sense oneself must become so refined that the individual can discriminate between physical sensation and the sensation of essential substance. It is not enough that the mind be quiet. It is also necessary for the body to be sensitive. The mind can be quiet while the body is deadened. The body has to be awakened so that the center of sensing, the belly center, can be activated. The belly center, or what Gurdjieff called the physical center, is the center of sensing for all parts of the body. Its deepest function is the subtle sensing, the sensing of essential presence, that the Sufis call the organ for touch. Touch is, in a sense, the most intimate of the physical senses. The skin must be directly against an object to touch it. There is no intermediary medium, like sound for hearing or light for seeing. So this subtle capacity is a very intimate one. Accurately speaking, it is sensing essence by being essence. It is the most direct way of perception. This capacity of touch, connected with the belly center, is very intimately connected with the embodiment of essence. It is the body center; its mode of perception is embodiment. Here, perception as touch, and being, are the same act. So this capacity is the most important one. 

Essence with the Elixir of Enlightenment, pg. 130

 

Maybe more later. I'm sleepy.                                           

[tsuki]

In general, I agree with you. I would say, however, that instinct and intuition are trans-personal forms of intelligence.
They are an interface between the personal and trans-personal experience. I wanted to talk about this in today's video.

In the beginning of my latest video, I was saying that the intellect is driven by intuition while the body is driven by instinct.
They are definitely a form of intelligence far quicker and superior, but more crude than personal.

Edited June 7, 2019 by tsuki

[Zigzag Idiot]

 

 

 

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

I don't know about eternity. I've not had any experience about it.

I understand infinity to some degree because I've had an experience about it. 

it's not that I don't believe those who say with certainty that soul is eternal. I've just not realized it. Conceptually, I can envision 'Existence' as possibly being eternal. But soul and existence are two different things. Maybe they're not and possibly that would resolve the disparity for me. I've assumed most of my life that we each are a soul who is eternal. Pondering on it though, revealed some assumptions that went unnoticed in the past. The Teaching Gurdjieff gave that most are born with only a  possibility of developing a soul makes a lot of sense in some ways, as horrible as that idea sounds.

Centers and chakras can be confusing. They are two different things which sometimes are the same thing but most of the time they are not quite the same thing. The 3 transpersonal chakras are sometimes said to be around the knees, feet, and above the head. I think some traditions suggests maybe even dozens mini chakras that have specific locations in the body.

 

There are three centers.  No, there are four. No, actually there are five. When the belly or instinctIve center is subdivided into three as some do. That makes five.

Hara or belly center divided by three--

The instinctive with autonomic nervous system and controlling bodily functions and processes. 

The instinctive/moving part (all learned movements like the ability to walk.)

The sexual center. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2019 by Zigzag Idiot
Belly center not chakra - 4th line up

[Zigzag Idiot]

                                       Processing the worst of the shadow with a Psychotherapist 

In January of 2015 I was invited to a small group who were starting at the beginning of A Course IN MIRACLES. It was led by a  Psychotherapist who had discovered ACIM in years past. This was his 5th or 6th time to go through it. I never had even looked at the text until that first meeting. I knew within few minutes that I was interested. 

Each week I drove 1 1/2 hours one way to go to the meetings. After about a month, I told Jim, the group organizer/Psychotherapist that I would like to schedule a weekly appointment to do some shadow work. For the first couple of appointments I just dumped everything I could bring out of my shadow. Traumas from childhood onward. Humiliations, hatreds, betrayals etc.,, Anthing that I could remember but wish I could forget or the worst of it, I told him.

I knew he had been a therapist for years. So, I didn't hold back figuring he had heard it all. After about 6-8 weeks I felt that all I was doing at that point was needlessly stirring up emotional things. It felt good to just dump all that stuff on him and get his feedback and be done with it. If this idea appeals to you, I recommend it. Just find a therapist you feel ok with.

Jim doesn't believe in all the new pharma. Says it's just a money maker needlessly perpetrated by big pharmaceuticals. I was on Paxil from about 2000 -2010 and quit them on my own. So I understand a little from different perspectives but I really feel the same as he does. Mostly because of him,,, A Professional in the field of psychotherapy.

 

He sends out an email mini Column every week that I still subscribe to. This is it from last week.

The Impossible Dream
by Dr. Jim Rosen
©2019 Dr. Jim Rosen
 

    When you don’t love and appreciate yourself as a person, then you find yourself trying to please other people far too much of the time.  You have this belief that if you try hard to be good (in the eyes of these other people), then they should recognize your worth, and then they’re supposed to respond with love, support and approval.  So you do a lot for others, but the doing is to get something in return.  Isn’t that the essence of selfishness – doing in order to get something?  But you’re not quite able to completely please them, and they don’t quite give you what you really need.  So you feel empty and resentful inside.  And then you try even harder to please…Stop!  When you develop self-love, you do what feels right and important on the inside, and you commence to give from your heart.  This leads you to be truly giving – at times to yourself, at times to others.  This is where you can live in a state of balance and where the emptiness and resentment can fall away.    

Very similar messages here:

 

[Zigzag Idiot]

Instinct feels pre-personal.

Feeling is personal.

Intuition feels transpersonal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tsuki]

@Zigzag Idiot Do you deny the existence of instinct and intuition in others?
Did you "create" instinct and intuition through practice?
Did instinct and intuition create practice in you?

What are you?