Confused with where I am on the Spiral

[tsuki]

You're very young and you are probably still struggling with establishing your personality. Fighting with others for its independence may seem like inevitable, but I assure you that it's not. It is perfectly fine to just go through the motions if you feel coerced into practicing religion against your will. Your parents are what your life is still revolving around and hurting them is not a good idea (for your own safety).

I suggest that you take this opportunity to contemplate what religion is about, if god does not exist.

Also, here is a helpful fragment from /r/atheism's FAQ:

Quote

Should I come out to my parents as being an atheist?

The short answer is "No."

The slightly longer answer is that if you are not in a position where that is likely to end well for you, you should probably wait until you're more self-sufficient. However, you know your own parents better than we do. You could try breaking the ice on the subject of atheism to get a feel for their reaction to it in general, if you're not sure. Always keep in mind that for many people religion is a highly emotive subject, and for many parents who have been raised to believe in the "moral superiority" of religious belief, a child who comes out as an atheist can be interpreted as a betrayal of them or as a failure of their own.

In some religions, it can actually be dangerous to "out" yourself. If your father is a hardline Muslim, for example, getting kicked out of the house is the least of your worries. You risk being beheaded or set on fire. If you're coming from one of those, keep that in mind as well.

/r/atheism will almost invariably respond that you should wait. A common proverb here is "The best place to come out to your parents is at a home you own, over a dinner that you paid for yourself".

If you do decide to "come out," then consider that "atheist" has many evil, hateful connotations to religious people. It's right up there with "Satanist." You might be able to reduce the amount of flak you get by choosing a label for yourself that has a similar meaning but is less controversial. Please consider using an alternative such as "agnostic" or "humanist", which does not carry quite as much baggage.

There's also another approach: You could say "I've lost my belief" or "I don't know what to believe any more" or even "God doesn't speak to me any more." Asked if you are an atheist, you could say "I don't know."

This makes you look less like a monster and more like a victim. You'll be subject to sympathy rather than anger. You won't be kicked out. But you run the risk of having folks work really hard to bring you back to God. Expect (more) frequent church visits, and maybe a talk with the priest/pastor/counselor.

How do I get out of going to Church / Youth Group / religious duties?

One way is to be over interested, over earnest, yet not overly fervent, and ask awkward questions addressed to the leaders while the other participants can hear you.

The goal: Make the leaders uncomfortable or worried that you could end up causing doubts or even de-converting other participants in the group.

This can backfire and expose your atheism or cause you to be 'sent up the chain' to a priest for 'counseling'/'answering your questions'/'spiritual needs', so you have to have some tact when doing this ... but not so tactful that the awkwardness is covered up.

As this can be tricky, get a list of basic questions (nothing advanced!) that are OK to ask along with the awkward questions. You should find people who used to be in your youth group's specific sect or the sect of the leader(s) to make sure they have optimal effect; questions for Catholics won't work for Mormons, Lutherans may work for Methodists but not for Baptists and is really unlikely to work with Jehovah Witnesses.

 

[Ampresus]

18 hours ago, Arkandeus said:

What I mean is that such a label doesn't mean anything, either way life is what it is, and you will live your life the way you see fit, some label is not going to change that

@Arkandeus This is what I am trying to accomplish. That is why I left Islam. I want to live freely, not with a book which tells me what to do. 

 

[Ampresus]

18 hours ago, Shiva said:

Not participating in Ramadan and dropping other things won't move you up the spiral.

Your stage is not so much determined by what you do, but rather by how you are within yourself.

You can participate in all these things, but from now on, try doing the same things in a green context.

Things like prayer are actually very great spiritual practises.

The problem is that most people do it in a stage blue sort of way, which can be very dogmatic and delusional.

@Shiva I think now I understand. I thought that it had specifically to do with what I am doing. My inner self is very different, for example since I was young I already questioned my belief. Looking up stuff like masturbation and how it was haram. I tried to stick to those rules, but couldn't do it. Now that I see that there is a better way I want to stop following all those 1000 rules. Following those rules in my own way might be a smarter move. 

[Ampresus]

18 hours ago, Shiva said:

Not participating in Ramadan and dropping other things won't move you up the spiral.

Your stage is not so much determined by what you do, but rather by how you are within yourself.

You can participate in all these things, but from now on, try doing the same things in a green context.

Things like prayer are actually very great spiritual practises.

The problem is that most people do it in a stage blue sort of way, which can be very dogmatic and delusional.

@Shiva  I think now I understand. I thought that it had specifically to do with what I am doing. My inner self is very different, for example since I was young I already questioned my belief. Looking up stuff like masturbation and how it was haram. I tried to stick to those rules, but couldn't do it. Now that I see that there is a better way I want to stop following all those 1000 rules. Following those rules in my own way might be a smarter move. 

[Ampresus]

17 hours ago, Aimblack said:

If you really can't stand it then well then that's the end I guess, but can you practice other meditations safely? If no maybe trying to outgrow your dislike of religion/Islam/prayer can help you grow a lot. In my experience facing the things I dislike the most also grows me the most. I used to really hate religions(I binge watched darkmatter2525 and other atheist content) and Christianity in particular. Now I can genuinely take the perspective of a Christian which makes my life WAY easier because the emotion that gets triggered is love, imagine being able to love the culture that you share with your parents wouldn't it be way cooler than being distanced from them? 

@Aimblack I can do other meditations safely. Praying itself is what frustrates me. Idm other people doing it, it's just that moving while constantly trying to be mindful really is annoying to me. Btw when you are raised up as a religious kid, it isn't hard to step in the shoes of someone else who has a different religious background. At least for me. I can easily see and relate with a jewish kid of my age. I can see the differences and dark/bright side of religions. Maybe I need to do it your way, but the other way around. 

After a few years that love melts away like snow after a day in the sun. It isn't magical at all. I though it was though. When I first heard about Greek mythology I was really wondering if my religion had something cool like that too. No, we have old prophets who once lived and get their stories retold for generations. Our stories are always a bit different from other religions like Jesus' story with Christianity is different from ours. This is why harmony really gets me. Why can't different religious groups live in peace in the Middle-East if they have so much in common? Their conflicts last for generations apparently, which makes me think to Mohammed's time. People back then also randomly fought with each other for generations. Conflicts which lasted too long. 

[Ampresus]

17 hours ago, now is forever said:

you want to find a way to see the world with your eyes and the world from other perspectives and to do so you feel that you have to rebel and you are exactly at the age where it gets juicy. 

see you are like a bird wanting to leave a nest trying to fly free with the other birds completely, and therefore you feel the urge to severe the bonds that hold you, and that’s fine but not yet, you still need your nest and you can still learn some things.

it’s not their heart you want to brake - it is the bonds that hold you.

@now is forever Finally somebody who gets me. Damn what do I like people who recognize my situation with my age. It gets really juicy sometimes yes.

The last sentence makes a lot of sense. Thank you. 

[Joseph Maynor]

Yes.  Participate.  Spirituality is the same no matter different clothing of traditions.  You make of it something for you.  But then don’t take away from others either.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Ampresus]

16 hours ago, Jack River said:

You are the spiral

One “progressive” unit of “movement/time”. 

Step out...end that movement. 

@Jack River imagine explaining these small texts of ''wise words'' to someone who just got into this field..... I know right sounds like a stupid idea... (wtf do you mean dude)

[Ampresus]

15 hours ago, Elisabeth said:

It's safe to assume you have some blue, some orange and some green, with a center of gravity probably still in orange. I think so, because

- You say you've been blue previously, but now you react against religion.

- You're a teen living in the Netherlands. Which would be a mostly orange-green country. And (in my understanding of the spiral) it's natural for kids your age to move into orange and focus on their individual achievements in the world.

- For some reason you started to watch Leo and you're interested in the green stuff, but you're just starting out with the practices.

So a mostly orange mix it is, opening up to green perhaps, but with a lot of orange stuff yet unfinished (imho you can't have orange all done until you've earned your own living). See how you're still blue, live out orange, explore green, and don't let yourself be bothered by spiral dynamics too much - the development is happening out of your natural curiosity , you don't have to push.

@Elisabeth I can explain why I started watching Leo if it helps. 

About that last bit, I discovered that today when I thought about Maslow's hierarchy of needs. This basically means that I should just let everything happen, learn to live on my own and then try to transcend to Green.

 

[Jack River]

In most cases when you question people’s religious preference it seems to them that they are being attacked directly, as in the personal sense of self. This happened to me when I was 17 years old. I questioned the whole thing and its obviousness and refused to play the game. They say me down and said I had to play by the rules of the house or I had to leave. So I left. 

When we oppose someone's dogmas in most cases may they feel attacked personally. We are our accumulated knowledge/experience. The self is it’s content that has been accumulated and attachment too over time/the past. 

This is why people tend to form groups and exclude the opposed bias. This is a form of isolation/fear. Kinda sad, especially with people like my parents that were programmed to this type of living. 

Edited November 19, 2018 by Jack River

[Ampresus]

13 hours ago, now is forever said:

yes you are right, he surely already is part of the cool kids.

@now is forever I don't want to be identified with any groups in my school. Cool kids, gamers, smokers, all not me. I am me. Not a group. I have a little bit of some, but can not seem to completely fit in with any group. Cool kids simply aren't the kids I want to hang out with. They push people to do things for them, expect you to be 100% like them and when you are different they abandon you. I don't want to end up in a group like that. I want to be me and if that means no cool kids then so be it. 

I used to really be in the gamer group, but the kids there are way too harsh and unnecessary racist with their jokes. Many times they would insult my old religion or religions in general. Cool kids aren't far from different in that sense, but just have more self-confidence than gamers. And then they ask me how I get to talk with so many girls even though they sit in their chair for the entire day eating biscuits and laughing to stupid jokes. 

Since I started reading books I officially don't belong to any group. 

[Joseph Maynor]

4 minutes ago, Jack River said:

In most cases when you question people’s religious preference it seems to them that they are being attacked directly, as in the personal sense of self. This happened to me when I was 17 years old. I questioned the whole thing and its obviousness and refused to play the game. They say me down and said I had to play by the rules of the house or I had to leave. So I left. 

When we oppose someone's dogmas in most cases may they feel attacked personally. We are our accumulated knowledge/experience. The self is it’s content that has been accumulated and attachment too over time/the past. 

This is why people tend to form groups and exclude the opposed bias. This is a form of isolation/fear. Kinda sad, especially with people like my parents that were programmed to this type of living. 

Whatever happened to Faceless?  For some reason you always remind me of him.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Ampresus]

13 hours ago, aurum said:

I grew up Catholic, and it was extreme difficult for me to tell my family about how I saw things differently. So I understand your position.

I don't know how strict your parents are, but considering you're 14 my answer is to keep your mouth shut. Not forever. But this isn't something I would recommend just dropping like a bomb right now. Be more strategic about it.

@aurum I already figured this out, but thought that asking advice on this forum couldn't do any harm. 

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Whatever happened to Faceless?

Haven’t talked to him in while now. He spends a lot of time with his son. And he spends a lot of time without his head 

[Ampresus]

11 hours ago, brugluiz said:

Despite of Spiral Dynamics' colors, there's a universal law that is about Love and Fear. Love and Fear can be found in any Spiral's level. Look at it before trying to figure out where you are in the spiral.

I hope it helps.

Cheers!

@brugluiz You mind giving examples of love and fear in Yellow and Orange? 

[Joseph Maynor]

Just now, Jack River said:

Haven’t talked to him in while now. He spends a lot of time with his son. And he spends a lot of time without his head 

Poor guy.  I feel bad for giving him shit in the past.  I hope he’s doing well.

[Jack River]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Poor guy.  I feel bad for giving him shit in the past.  I hope he’s doing well.

I’m sure he’s doing good. He’s a different kinda dude. He seems pretty happy all the time. Why, what did you do you jerk?

Edited November 19, 2018 by Jack River

[Ampresus]

7 hours ago, tsuki said:

You're very young and you are probably still struggling with establishing your personality. Fighting with others for its independence may seem like inevitable, but I assure you that it's not. It is perfectly fine to just go through the motions if you feel coerced into practicing religion against your will. Your parents are what your life is still revolving around and hurting them is not a good idea (for your own safety).

I suggest that you take this opportunity to contemplate what religion is about, if god does not exist.

Also, here is a helpful fragment from /r/atheism's FAQ:

@tsuki Thank you for that fragment. 

[Joseph Maynor]

3 minutes ago, Jack River said:

I’m sure he’s doing good. He’s a different kinda dude. He seems pretty happy all the time. Why, what did you do you jerk?

I was projecting my own shit onto him when I was going through some enlightenment issue I can’t remember now.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Ampresus]

13 minutes ago, Jack River said:

When we oppose someone's dogmas in most cases may they feel attacked personally. We are our accumulated knowledge/experience. The self is it’s content that has been accumulated and attachment too over time/the past. 

@Jack River Can you explain this further I don't understand this.