Spiral Dynamics Stage Green Examples Mega-Thread

[Ibn Sina]

1 minute ago, mandyjw said:

Well this was a waste of 20 minutes that COULD have been spent doing butt shaping exercises, and really getting me somewhere in life.

??

But I can assure you that what I said has some wisdom which many people have not understood, the evidence being all the resistance people are having  to what  I said. Some might be thinking that I am stage blue who thinks women should be oppressed. LOL. 

[Forestluv]

25 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

How is thisa blue resisting green?Please explain. 

Sure.

It is the perspective of a dominant group  wanting to maintain unequal power dynamics over a marginalized/oppressed group. There is an unwillingness to let go of one’s own self-centered perspective and unwillingness to consider, learn and understand the perspective of the marginalized/ostracized group.

Notice how all your effort is being put into getting your point across and being understood. You have put no effort in trying to understand others’ pov. You have no desire or curiosity to learn and understand the other’s pov. As a result, you will have very little understanding of others’ point of view. You will keep dismissing it with phrases like “You don’t understand what I wrote. Go back and re-read it again”. 

[Ibn Sina]

7 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

It is the perspective of a dominant group  wanting to maintain unequal power dynamics over an oppressed group. There is an unwillingness to let go of one’s own self-centered perspective and unwillingness consider, learn and understand the perspective of the marginalized/ostracized group

Do you think that when I said 

" As green, women should let men live the way they want to live  unless there is some dire injustice upon them. Read this line 3 times, or you might misunderstand.”

Was I talking about maintaining power over women? Read it 10 times, then think about it for 3 hours,then read my previous posts,then you        might understand what I am trying to say.

But what I won't do is go on explaining again and again the thing that I have already explained in my posts. All I am going to say is you haven't understood what I am sayin/, that is not what I am saying. I won't try let you misrepresent my message but also I won't explain again and again because it's in the post and you need to look at how I arrived at the sentence, repeating will be a waste of time.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Forestluv]

14 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Was I talking about maintaining power over women? Read it 10 times, then think about it for 3 hours,then read my previous posts,then you        might understand what I am trying to say.

But what I won't do is go on explaining again and again the thing that I have already explained in my posts. All I am going to say is you haven't understood what I am saying, that is not what I am saying. I won't try let you misrepresent my message but also I won't explain again and again because it's in the post and you need to look at how I arrived at the sentence.

This is a common dynamic that keeps a mind contracted within their own pov. All the effort goes into trying to defend one’s own pov and trying to control a narrative. There is an unwillingness to let go of one’s own pov and resistance to learn and understand another pov. A common way for a mind to stay contracted is to say things like “you don’t understand my pov. Go back and read it 10 times until you understand it”.

This is resistance to development. In the context of this thread, resistance to understanding a green pov on gender inequality.

One aspect of green development is to begin to consider the experience and POV of other groups. Especially people in marginalize/oppressed/ostracized/stigmatized groups. In doing so, one can expand their awareness and understanding. This in turn can lead to empathy and desire fir a more inclusive and equal society.

[Ibn Sina]

12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

This is a common dynamic that keeps a mind contracted within their own pov. All the effort goes into trying to defend one’s own pov and trying to control a narrative. There is an unwillingness to let go of one’s own pov and resistance to learn and understand another pov. A common way for a mind to stay contracted is to say things like “you don’t understand my pov. Go back and read it 10 times until you understand it”.

This is resistance to development. In this context, resistance to understanding a green pov on gender inequality.

All I said was, go first understand what i was saying then talk, and you are saying " This is the way in which a person gets restricted in their own pov". I said first go understand what I said then talk, I am not becoming the restricted one here. First understand ME before judging me.

Secondly, I have read a  lot about stage  green. And I do understand green also. And even though I understand green, I don't have to agree with some aspects of it like not letting boys be boys because it hurts girls self esteem etc. (not the true spirit of green if you ask me)

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

And I do understand green also. 

Several people have been trying to reach out to you in this thread, yet you don’t seem open. 

If someone wants to stay within their paradigm, they will. 

[Ibn Sina]

9 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Several people have been trying to reach out to you in this thread, yet you don’t seem open

What? Many people did reach out and I have replied to each and every one of them. What are you trying to say?

I have understood every person here what they said to me, just not agreed with them. And they also haven't given sound reasons for me to agree with them. They haven't refuted my assertions. I have understood but not agreed.

Also I hope you are not conflating- 'understanding'green and'practicing'green.

While you on the other hand, have not even UNDERSTOOD and just making judgments about me.

9 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

If someone wants to stay within their paradigm, they will.

You can believe whatever  you want but I am not trying to stick to any paradigms. I am here to learn. Period. Not to talk and change people, but to learn. 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[Forestluv]

35 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

What? Many people did reach out and I have replied to each and every one of them. What are you trying to say?

It’s not a lack of response, it is the nature of the response.

If I have a perspective I am attached to and I want to protect it, I will get into a defensive posture. I will want to debate. I will want others to prove I am wrong. I will want others to understand me. There will be an energy of conflict. An energy of who is right and who is wrong. This orientation will keep me in a contracted mindset and hinder my development. 

This is a very different orientation than when I am open and curious about the perspective of others. Here, I genuinely want to learn about their experience and pov. Yet this isn’t just in theory, it is also in direct experience. In the context of green, this means letting go of my own male-centered pov and learning about other POVs. For example, I volunteered in a psychiatric hospital that was predominantly women. I learned a lot about the experience and perspectives of marginalized/ostracized/stigmatized people. I didn’t enter with the attitude of “I know all this and I’m right”. I went in with a humble, curious mindset which allowed growth.

Currently, I am serving on a diversity committee at my job. I am the only male on the committee. I am learning a lot from the womens’ experience and perspectives. When we have our meetings I’m not in a mindset that I understand everything and want them to understand me. I don’t talk over the women and “mansplain”. I don’t tell them how it is and that they need to re-listen to what I say 10 times for them to understand. When they question my POV, I don’t respond that they are disrespecting me and judging me. 
This mindset would prevent me from learning from others’ experience and POVs. It would also create inter-personal conflict/division and would prevent me from forming meaning human connections with mutual empathy and connection. 

This gets to the heart of green development. It goes way beyond intellectual thinking and argumentation. People have been reaching out to you, yet not to debate and argue with you. . . 

[Space]

Surely this conversation should be had in a new thread, rather than this one? 

[Loving Radiance]

@Space Agreed. All comments regarding Leo's initiating comment should be moved (mine moved too or removed).

CreamCat and Ibn Sina gave their personal views and didn't seem to discredit the example for green in the videos. Wandering off is useful but not for this thread.

[DnoReally]

These videos really helped me understand the way in which pop-culture depicts gender stereotypes. Also fits in the discussion above:

 

 

The channel overall is great

 

[Leo Gura]

This is really a discussion about feminism, and a lack of understanding of it's historical development and function in society.

If you want to start a thread about understanding feminism, go for it. But let's get not derail this thread any further with debates about the validity of feminism.

This threat for posting more Stage Green examples, positive and negative ones. Remember, to understand Stage Green is not the same as saying it is the end-all-be-all and that it doesn't have its problems and limits. There are much higher worldviews than Green. But to not understand Green is an obstacle to reaching those. Green's validity needs to be acknowledged to go higher.

[CreamCat]

On 11/26/2019 at 8:18 PM, Leo Gura said:

How would you feel if all guys in video games were depicted with giant dicks, making your girlfriend ask you, "Why is your dick so small?"

Just to clarify,

• Personally I think it is a bad manner to ridicule small breasts, small dick, or saggy breasts although people can have strong preferences.
• In my country, there are large organized teams of radical feminists who leave comments just to call my country's men tiny dicks. They constantly compare us with foreign guys who presumably have larger dicks. They organize and plot domination plans in their online headquarters. They call us tiny dicks or little dicks on internet news comment sections, various internet communities, and so on where our dick size is irrelevant. It has been going on for years.
  • Personally, I've accepted judgments although they keep claiming that my dick is half the actual size. They clearly haven't seen my dick. Constantly being reminded of my small dick is quite a humbling experience that keeps my feet to the fire of reality.
  • I've learned that judgments are inevitable and must not be taken seriously.

Edited November 29, 2019 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

@CreamCat But Sarkisian is not trying to belittle men. She is just pointing out certain imbalances.

[CreamCat]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@CreamCat But Sarkisian is not trying to belittle men. She is just pointing out certain imbalances.

Not sure how imbalances can be balanced out. I'm not fond of forcing young men to stop creating sexy fictional women or of forcing game companies to hire women just to balance out. There are better ways.

[Leo Gura]

@CreamCat A good start would be to HEAR the critique and take it seriously rather than denying it or attacking the messenger.

Awareness alone is curative. Yet even that is denied. Let's start by admitting there is a problem. How it gets balanced out we will figure out along the way.

[CreamCat]

@Leo Gura I'm aware that content creators create whatever they want to create. Especially, one-man entrepreneurs. If they can't, they would rather quit. What they want to create can range from sexy fictional women to in-world slang that nobody but the author of the novel understands.

There are non-negotiable stylistic choices of content creators.

Even if male content creators were aware of those critiques, I don't know what they can do, short of segregating target audience by sex or looking for other careers or alternating between target audiences with each piece of content.

If half of a game's characters are sexy and the other half were not, women are still going to complain about it. So, I think target audience segregation is going to be done. There is no easy short-term solution.

Meanwhile, more women can join the game industry. It's not like game industry as whole is actively avoiding women. Perhaps, too much overwork in the game industry repels women. I suspect improving labor condition will encourage more women to join. Perhaps, young immature men are too eager and too gullible to refuse bad labor conditions at low wages.

Edited November 29, 2019 by CreamCat

[Extreme Z7]

@CreamCat It's not a matter of individual creative decisions. You're still in-denial about the industry's culture being systematically run by toxic masculinity values.
 

58 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

Perhaps, too much overwork in the game industry repels women. I suspect improving labor condition will encourage more women to join.

Yikes, man. What you just said implies that women are inherently lazier than men.

[remember]

perhaps it’s the mixture of butts, murder and competition about the games why women don’t take part in it so much - women take on an educational mandate more often, you also find more of them in social studies etc. this is maybe not because of the gaming industry itself, but also because the gamers are mainly male - guys who like gaming might prefer artificial buts before actually becoming attractive to women - who prefer something else. that’s how gaming industry became mainly a niche. and that’s why it’s unattractive to women, working conditions would probably not be the reason if women where attracted to the work - but it’s not about what they like to get attention for in their art. why should anyone want to get attention in work for their buts?
(the women who did, made big buts acceptable in real life, female buts have always been discussed controversially - it’s really interesting though who decides on how our buts have to look like.)
i guess it’s the same as with automotive desig - it’s not that automotive would not be fun, it’s just that they mostly are made to attract males, and introducing something new would be difficult, design in general has a long history trying to be more attractive to men, and men if they don’t know what women like, they oftentimes just make a pink variation of it - that’s why there are fast pink cars. it has some art factor on its own, although under a certain light it all looks...

Edited November 29, 2019 by remember
maybe we could all just conclude that but(t) and titt envy exists - follow my but if you dare.

[CreamCat]

4 hours ago, Extreme Z7 said:

You're still in-denial about the industry's culture being systematically run by toxic masculinity values.

I cannot be in denial of something I don't know about. If there is something like a system, it certainly wasn't centrally planned or designed by a small group of people. The game industry organically grew. There is no deliberate design to it.

Saying game industry was centrally designed to be shitty is like saying africa's shitty situation was centrally designed by a tiny group of central committee.

4 hours ago, Extreme Z7 said:

Yikes, man. What you just said implies that women are inherently lazier than men.

That's your interpretation. I can interpret that young immature men are too eager, too gullible, or too desperate.

Wisdom is not laziness. It doesn't make much sense to work hard for free for someone else's benefits.

A lot of unpaid overwork is stupid unless you own a substantial amount of the company you work for.

Edited November 29, 2019 by CreamCat