Leo Gura

Spiral Dynamics Stage Green Examples Mega-Thread

2,017 posts in this topic

15 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Exactly,

 and my question is, why don't women do the same to men?

Why don't women make games that sexualize  men too?

That is what I meant by - reversing the situation. Women also being sexual towards men, what exactly would happen?

Aha!

That's my point.

Women cannot act promiscous, women cannot sexualize men. 

My point is, nature itself has made it that way, if women get promiscous then it is they who are putting the axe on their own foot.

Nature plays a role, but you underestimate the extent to which we construct culture and "nature".

You might as well be saying that nature made black people slaves, therefore no problem. Shut up and go back to work.

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My point is, when it comes to such sexual behaviour, women cannot do much to improve then saying 'Please don't  do this', and whether men stop doing it or not that's irrelevant, the reins of power in this regard is still in men's hand.

And all that black people could do was demand to be freed. And here we are.

And all that Gandhi did was demand that the British Empire give India its sovereignty and stop exploiting it.

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Because nature itself has made it that way. And that is my point. 

Nature is anything which occurs. So your point is moot. Feminism is as much "nature" as patriarchy is. So who's version of "nature" will prevail? That's what this whole debate is about.

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My point is also, women have to deal with it, yes we should make efforts to bring change, but it's better if women just spend time on doing their work and becoming more competent instead of saying gamers or cat callers 'Please don't sexualize us'.

That's your opinion, and obviously many feminists disagree.

Don't forget, both can be done at the same time.

Asking women to "shut up and become more competent" before you give them respect is the very injustice and patriarchy which is in question. Why should women have to work extra hard to please you? Who are you to tell them what is right and what they must do in order to be treated as they feel is fair?

Maybe when a person tells you that she is being treated unfairly you should take it seriously rather than telling her to work harder and be more competent? Just a crazy thought.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Asking women to become "shut up and become more competent" before you given them respect is the very injustice and patriarchy which we in question

No one owes respect to anyone. That's the reality, that's my point. 

In one of your videos , may be in conscious politics, you discussed that every one would be slaves if there was no government. And here you are 100% right. So I am guessing you do have an idea about human nature.

But what you have to see is that slavery and 'giving respect to women'/ not sexualizing women are completely different things.

Slavery is more unnatural. 

It is the literal restriction of the will of a person to live.

But sexualizing women in games, cat calling? That cannot at all be compared to slavery. 

I know it is a bad, dark, low consciousness force, but it is still a natural freedom. It does not kill women like slavery, it is not a social evil.

But rather restricting freedom, since you are an american I don't have to emphasize, is an evil.

Don't compare AT ALL such things with slavery.

Yes, on natural impulse people also murder, on Lions eat deer,

but the main point is , to have wisdom to properly demarcate  the line.

You are drawing the lining on a much  higher, idealistic level, and so do communists, making it unhumanitarian.

While the line should be drawn lower, there should be a good balance between human freedom and chaos of nature. 

You cannot put too upward, or too downward.

It's like if Lion came to eat, would you say, hey lion please don't eat us? no.
Of course, I am not saying the natural impulses should overflow, but there should be a good balance.

That is where you and I differ. You are putting the line much higher.

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Maybe when a person tells you that she is being treated unfairly you should take it seriously rather than telling her to work harder and be more competent? Just a crazy thought

If she is being treated unfairly.

If she says- they are putting video games which are sexualizing women, I'll say- go back to work.

If she says- I am being underpaid, or harassed, raped, discriminated, I'll be there for her.

That's the line that I am talking about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ibn Sina

"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
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@Ibn Sina Anything that happens is nature. Leo Gura is nature. You are nature. Seemingly unnatural things are also natural.

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32 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

My point is also, women have to deal with it, yes we should make efforts to bring change, but it's better if women just spend time on doing their work and becoming more competent instead of saying gamers or cat callers 'Please don't sexualize us'.

The purpose of this thread is to share examples of stage green, and here you are suggesting that women would be better off by reverting to stage orange values and focusing on work.

Edited by mandyjw

My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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Reverting or revisiting? Revisiting Orange doesn't mean you give up higher stages. We all need to revisit lower stages frequently. It's not just Orange that you need to revisit. You also need to revisit Beige, Purple, etc, ...

By all means, do what you want. If you want equality, pursue it. Do your best, and prosper. Good luck.

Edited by CreamCat

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@Ibn Sina Let's say I take enjoyment out of making fun of people. In fact I do it so much that I do it to everyone I meet. And not just playful teasing, but straight up cruel mockery. 

Obviously a lot of people would get hurt by my behaviour, right? People would call me out and want to get me to stop. What you're essentially saying is "Why should I care about the people I hurt? I benefit from mocking people, so why should I stop?" 

And just to reinforce the point, maybe I come from a powerful group of people where mocking others is seen as a sign of wit and prestige. When people start to question my behaviour, I just say "But it's natural to mock others. That's just the way it is."

Obviously the point is that it's not "just the way it is," it's instead a set of behaviours I have been taught from the power dynamics around me and want to keep these dynamics going. All the mental and psychological damage I cause from insulting people doesn't matter to me, when really in a more conscious society it would. 


“All you need is Love” - John Lennon

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2 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

The purpose of this thread is to share examples of stage green, and here you are suggesting that women would be better off by reverting to stage orange values and focusing on work

Lol, no

this is my opinion on the matter-

As green, women should do all the things that green people do.  

Plant trees, fight injustices bla bla.
My point is, doing those things like wiping out ads because that would make girls feel self conscious, shouldn't be done, I don't think it is 'green' it's ego feeling insecure.

As green, women should fight for equality in patriarchy , in buisness etc.

As green, women should let men live the way they want to live  unless there is some dire injustice upon them. Read this line 3 times, or you might misundersdand.

 But 'not getting respect' that is not injustice. That is just people not liking her. No one owes anything to her.

'Injustice' in a legal court sense is one thing, 'not getting respect' 'cat calling' is completing different thing. This is the difference that I see, but many people here don't.


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
My Blog- Writing for Therapy

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6 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Let's say I take enjoyment out of making fun of people. In fact I do it so much that I do it to everyone I meet. And not just playful teasing, but straight up cruel mockery. 

Obviously a lot of people would get hurt by my behaviour, right? People would call me out and want to get me to stop. What you're essentially saying is "Why should I care about the people I hurt? I benefit from mocking people, so why should I stop?" 

And just to reinforce the point, maybe I come from a powerful group of people where mocking others is seen as a sign of wit and prestige. When people start to question my behaviour, I just say "But it's natural to mock others. That's just the way it is."

Obviously the point is that it's not "just the way it is," it's instead a set of behaviours I have been taught from the power dynamics around me and want to keep these dynamics going. All the mental and psychological damage I cause from insulting people doesn't matter to me, when really in a more conscious society it would. 

 

Do you even fully read what I write? Or do you just react whenever you read something you don't like without fully understanding?

Go read the line about- ' having the wisdom to demarcate the line'. I have already addressed what you are saying.


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
My Blog- Writing for Therapy

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10 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

As green, women should fight for equality in patriarchy , in buisness etc.

As green, women should let men live the way they want to live  unless there is some dire injustice upon them. Read this line 3 times, or you might misundersdand.

 But 'not getting respect' that is not injustice. That is just people not liking her. No one owes anything to her.

 

You're trying to get women to submit to doing their best to survive in a game that's rigged against them. Of course some women are gonna upset the game board, throw the cards in your face and storm off. You would too.

If everyone agrees to play A MORE FAIR GAME and it will be more fun for everyone. 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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Just now, mandyjw said:

You're trying to get women to submit to doing their best to survive in a game that's rigged against them. Of course some women are gonna upset the game board, throw the cards in your face and storm off. You would too.

If everyone agrees to play A MORE FAIR GAME and it will be more fun for everyone. 

You have not understood  what I am saying. If you want  to believe that that is what I am saying then that's okay. But I won't add anything simply because that is not what I am saying  and you have not gone through the labour of understanding what I am saying.


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
My Blog- Writing for Therapy

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“As green, women should let men live the way they want to live  unless there is some dire injustice upon them. Read this line 3 times, or you might misunderstand.”

This is a great example of blue/orange resisting green. And it was spoken from a man to a women, which adds in three scoops of green cringe. 

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Just now, Serotoninluv said:

“As green, women should let men live the way they want to live  unless there is some dire injustice upon them. Read this line 3 times, or you might misunderstand.”

This is a great example of blue/orange resisting green. And it was spoken from a man to a women, which adds in three scoops of green cringe. 

Here we go again with my friend Serotoninluv with whom I have had some great  discussions in the  past and I know his style.

How is thisa blue resisting green?Please explain. Let's brush up on my spiral dynamics knowledge.


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
My Blog- Writing for Therapy

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17 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

You have not understood  what I am saying. If you want  to believe that that is what I am saying then that's okay. But I won't add anything simply because that is not what I am saying  and you have not gone through the labour of understanding what I am saying.

Well this was a waste of 20 minutes that COULD have been spent doing butt shaping exercises, and really getting me somewhere in life. 

 

 


My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

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1 minute ago, mandyjw said:

Well this was a waste of 20 minutes that COULD have been spent doing butt shaping exercises, and really getting me somewhere in life.

??

But I can assure you that what I said has some wisdom which many people have not understood, the evidence being all the resistance people are having  to what  I said. Some might be thinking that I am stage blue who thinks women should be oppressed. LOL. 


"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
My Blog- Writing for Therapy

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25 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

How is thisa blue resisting green?Please explain. 

Sure.

It is the perspective of a dominant group  wanting to maintain unequal power dynamics over a marginalized/oppressed group. There is an unwillingness to let go of one’s own self-centered perspective and unwillingness to consider, learn and understand the perspective of the marginalized/ostracized group.

Notice how all your effort is being put into getting your point across and being understood. You have put no effort in trying to understand others’ pov. You have no desire or curiosity to learn and understand the other’s pov. As a result, you will have very little understanding of others’ point of view. You will keep dismissing it with phrases like “You don’t understand what I wrote. Go back and re-read it again”. 

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7 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

It is the perspective of a dominant group  wanting to maintain unequal power dynamics over an oppressed group. There is an unwillingness to let go of one’s own self-centered perspective and unwillingness consider, learn and understand the perspective of the marginalized/ostracized group

Do you think that when I said 

" As green, women should let men live the way they want to live  unless there is some dire injustice upon them. Read this line 3 times, or you might misunderstand.”

Was I talking about maintaining power over women? Read it 10 times, then think about it for 3 hours,then read my previous posts,then you        might understand what I am trying to say.

But what I won't do is go on explaining again and again the thing that I have already explained in my posts. All I am going to say is you haven't understood what I am sayin/, that is not what I am saying. I won't try let you misrepresent my message but also I won't explain again and again because it's in the post and you need to look at how I arrived at the sentence, repeating will be a waste of time.

Edited by Ibn Sina

"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
My Blog- Writing for Therapy

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14 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Was I talking about maintaining power over women? Read it 10 times, then think about it for 3 hours,then read my previous posts,then you        might understand what I am trying to say.

But what I won't do is go on explaining again and again the thing that I have already explained in my posts. All I am going to say is you haven't understood what I am saying, that is not what I am saying. I won't try let you misrepresent my message but also I won't explain again and again because it's in the post and you need to look at how I arrived at the sentence.

This is a common dynamic that keeps a mind contracted within their own pov. All the effort goes into trying to defend one’s own pov and trying to control a narrative. There is an unwillingness to let go of one’s own pov and resistance to learn and understand another pov. A common way for a mind to stay contracted is to say things like “you don’t understand my pov. Go back and read it 10 times until you understand it”.

This is resistance to development. In the context of this thread, resistance to understanding a green pov on gender inequality.

One aspect of green development is to begin to consider the experience and POV of other groups. Especially people in marginalize/oppressed/ostracized/stigmatized groups. In doing so, one can expand their awareness and understanding. This in turn can lead to empathy and desire fir a more inclusive and equal society.

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12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

This is a common dynamic that keeps a mind contracted within their own pov. All the effort goes into trying to defend one’s own pov and trying to control a narrative. There is an unwillingness to let go of one’s own pov and resistance to learn and understand another pov. A common way for a mind to stay contracted is to say things like “you don’t understand my pov. Go back and read it 10 times until you understand it”.

This is resistance to development. In this context, resistance to understanding a green pov on gender inequality.

All I said was, go first understand what i was saying then talk, and you are saying " This is the way in which a person gets restricted in their own pov". I said first go understand what I said then talk, I am not becoming the restricted one here. First understand ME before judging me.

Secondly, I have read a  lot about stage  green. And I do understand green also. And even though I understand green, I don't have to agree with some aspects of it like not letting boys be boys because it hurts girls self esteem etc. (not the true spirit of green if you ask me)

Edited by Ibn Sina

"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
My Blog- Writing for Therapy

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10 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

And I do understand green also. 

Several people have been trying to reach out to you in this thread, yet you don’t seem open. 

If someone wants to stay within their paradigm, they will. 

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9 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Several people have been trying to reach out to you in this thread, yet you don’t seem open

What? Many people did reach out and I have replied to each and every one of them. What are you trying to say?

I have understood every person here what they said to me, just not agreed with them. And they also haven't given sound reasons for me to agree with them. They haven't refuted my assertions. I have understood but not agreed.

Also I hope you are not conflating- 'understanding'green and'practicing'green.

While you on the other hand, have not even UNDERSTOOD and just making judgments about me.

9 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

If someone wants to stay within their paradigm, they will.

You can believe whatever  you want but I am not trying to stick to any paradigms. I am here to learn. Period. Not to talk and change people, but to learn. 

 

 

Edited by Ibn Sina

"Whatever you do or dream you can begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. "   - Goethe
                                                                                                                                 
My Blog- Writing for Therapy

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