Feminism. Stage blue and red istead of greem?

[Freakrik]

Feminism seems to market itself as green. But from my observations Feminism stage blue and sometimes red. Like vilifying everyone that doesn't  agree with it (here in sweden a famous women did not call herself a feminist and got called "Womenhater" and got a hatestrom) or in stage red cases scream and sometimes trying to hurt the people that doesn't agree with them. Ofcourse this is not every feminist. But this is the trend from my observations

[Spiral]

@Emerald In yellow feminism do you mean that a post-industrial patriarchal system, is bad to nature because it’s creates for instance global warming? I’m not very familiar with this type of feminism.

[molosku]

Hard topic to discuss, as there are almost as many versions of feminism as there are feminists. 

[SgtPepper]

egalitarianism is better

Edited July 2, 2018 by SgtPepper

[intrastellar]

@Emerald Interesting overview. Do you know any good examples of stage yellow feminism (books, videos, people...)?

 

[Brittany]

I think that feminism in the turquoise stage sees that it is all a dream. 

I feel like turquoise is the one that can see past the dream at all times while still interacting with the dream when it wants to.

[ValiantSalvatore]

13 hours ago, Emerald said:

Feminism at Green would be the dawning of a basic awareness of systemic thinking relative to social structures and social structures only. The most popular form of this would be Intersectional Feminism, where Feminists are actively questioning how various privilege structures work within society and how different privilege structures act differently. Most Third-Wave Feminists are at Green. Despite its advances and deepening of awareness, it is still quite dogmatic. They often start to become more aware than the people around them about social patterns, and begin demonizing and blaming people who don't see the same patterns that they do. They also tend to believe that masculinity and femininity are nothing more than social constructs, to avoid uncomfortable truths that they fear may send them backwards. It's not really a very happy place to be at with regard to Feminism because a lot of Reds, Blues, and Oranges tend to lambast them, each group with a different reasoning. That's why there are so many Feminist cringe compilations circulating around the internet.

, and they don't know how to fix them. So, they get nit-picky and defensive. And there are a lot of truths that they've yet to discover that occur on levels deeper than social structures. But they don't know that yet. Gender inequality can't be fully resolved at this level... just managed to make people feel more comfortable. 

Feminism at Yellow, would be when systemic thinking deepens beyond the social level to a more esoteric level and spiritual level. This is where the roots of the issues noticed at Green can start to be recognized. And with this, the demonization of the less conscious goes away. Here, instead of focusing only on gender inequality, it is recognized that gender inequality is a symptom of a deeper problem. And there is also a realization that femininity and masculinity are real in the form of Yin and Yang, and that these energies reflect in all living and non-living systems. And in this realization, there is an awareness that the imbalance between Yin and Yang is reflected as the core of most of our social problems that extend FAR beyond gender inequality. At Yellow, it is recognized that the Feminism is intrinsically linked to the Feminine Principle and all of its traits and expressions. It is also recognized that even Feminists at Green tend to unconsciously support the imbalance between Yin and Yang, because they don't realize when certain things are masculine or feminine. So, they are unconscious of their masculine biases that exacerbate the imbalance. It is also recognized that this imbalance reflects as a society that devalues Mother Nature and focuses more toward society at nature's expense. It is also recognized that Feminism is a natural outgrowth of post-industrial society. A patriarchal society that is post-industrial is VERY dangerous to Mother Nature as the imbalanced human system can threaten to break the natural systems. So, the feminine is in need of being reintegrated. There are very few Yellow Feminists. I think it is what will come in the future. 

Thanks for elaborating !  , I am thinking about social patterns a lot (spiral dynamics helps enormously) and this is pretty much what triggers me when I am around green women/people and that I have to be especially careful what I say otherwise I am being demonized for being a patriach a peasent or an unaware idiot (which is partially true) . Also, body language is quite interesting at green they seem to get triggered when a man takes in a position which displays dominance for instance:

 

I asked a third wave /fourth wave feminist what she thinks about this posture since she mentioned manspreading to me which seemed absurd to me first.  She said that she does not like it and that men unconsciously display dominance, which I tend to agree, yet it is also a position of comfort and people can misinterpret the intentions behind why someone choose to sit likes this, without considering the situation at all. Long story short for me personally it can be both and sometimes it is neccesary to sit like this when you are discussing something and you have to display dominance in order to be taken seriously. Most men tend to be unaware and want to display dominance/confidence or simply want to have a good argument / debate and use this position. Mostly as a means to be respected imo.

13 hours ago, Emerald said:

Green Feminists don't know how to react effectively to noticing power structures that they've never noticed before, and they don't know how to fix them.

To give an example to this my aunt is lesbian and quite green/orange(more green), when she visited me on my birthday. We sat outside in the garden and I was leaning back in my chair trying to find space, since I am quite tall and chairs annoy me, since they are mostly small and I feel confined by the armrests. So, I adjust my body like in the picture above to sit in a comfortable position and suddenly. She started to feel uncomfortable and potentially opressed and crossed her arms around her torso, while her partner (they are married) seemed to deal with it in an more orange manner, deal with it that is how it is ( disragarding emotions). I felt confined not dominant not confident in the ordinary conception, yet I was abiding in a medicore deep feeling of imperturbability. I did not ask, yet the body language showed that she felt extremely uncomfortable and somehow opressed / dominated, so I stopped after she did not feel any better when I switchted to a different position. What I am alluding here to with this story is the "divine" principle of the masculin (and feminin) I like david deida who talks about masculin and feminin energies and since I tapped into green/yellow, especially yellow. I can not now only express my emotions and feel like shit when , I see any sort of opression / marginalization regardless of race, color ,sex and creed and in general feel more loving and playful.

Yet, I can embody it partially the feminim aspects of the divine feminin. I can laugh dance and be playful and I feel full, full of love that I want to share and spread that love instead of emptying myself and becoming radically free. Although this is restricted I do tap into to this weekly almost, for a duration of 2-4h. Where these feelings spike up sporadically and spontaneously. It feels like the social construct of what masculin and feminin is can not only be looked upon (like in green) , yet their energetic / emotional quality / component is neither being denied / denigrated or reperssed and instead integrated. At the sametime I also feel more manly and more at home in my body energy wise most likely because of meditation and potentially the yellow stage, since according to what I remember and listend to / read (online) is that at yellow both of these qualities of the divine masculin and feminin are being integrated and one has the capacity to access them ? 

To me it seems more to that the power structures have been uncovered at stage green, like different dynamics of how people are being "systematically opressed" for instance through modern sexism or benevolent sexism / structural racism. To further increase my knowledge in this area and unashamedly repating somethings I wrote down. A structural handicap / disadvantage is the perpetuation of the prevailing priviliges of a group to protect the groups priviliages by the means of spreading / propagating ideologies and prejeduices about a group which is at a disadvantage. For instance modern sexism simply is the denial and refusal of undertakings that reduce inequality. Hence, creating inequality by denying that sexism exist and that women are exposed to it and keeping the notions people have about women alive and not questioning them / they are maintained. (same applies to racism). Which seems quite orange and modern form of denying any ism. Or fighting against it.  So, the energetic component is the power structure which green is subject to, yet can't go meta and see it as an object. I , also felt opressed by women and like there is matriachy which seemed fking scary and furious/chaotic and opressive. 

@Emerald are you doing any practices that helps to embody masculin and feminin energies or which traditions could be interesting / useful to look into ? Daoism ? I wanted to start a yoga pratice in the near future and I am not sure if kriya yoga is the thing I want to untangle my blocked chakras or "integral yoga" which they even offer now with the app insight timer, which focuses more on these energies and combines various yoga pratices. As far as I know. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_yoga

I don't know about turquoise I just think that everything becomes one so maybe it does not matter anymore with these energies and any concept is being transcended and therefore made redundant. So feminin and masculin are not only embodied but their polarities are transcended ? No idea, no experience.  
 

 

Edited July 2, 2018 by ValiantSalvatore

[Elisabeth]

8 hours ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

Also, body language is quite interesting at green they seem to get triggered when a man takes in a position which displays dominance for instance:

 

I asked a third wave /fourth wave feminist what she thinks about this posture since she mentioned manspreading to me which seemed absurd to me first.  She said that she does not like it and that men unconsciously display dominance, which I tend to agree, yet it is also a position of comfort and people can misinterpret the intentions behind why someone choose to sit likes this, without considering the situation at all.

Haha, that position is interesting, thanks for bringing that up. Notice how women do NOT sit in that position. We would be educated by our MOTHERS when little to not sit with legs apart - apparently it's inappropriate for a woman to open her legs even if fully clothed. Slut shaming at it's finest. (Yet we can sit with our legs crossed wrapped tightly which I understand to be hardly physiologically possible for men.)

I don't link that position to dominance but I did envy men their open positions at times. 

This is how comfort IS dominance - if women don't have the same freedom (by upbringing) than taking the position of comfort is actually a display of "privilege". Interesting systemic connection. (I'm sure though there are ways in which roles are reversed, though they may be fewer.)

Sit however you want. I prefer to empower women to also take a "dominant" position to levelling the field by making restrictions. Thanks for being aware. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Elisabeth

[Zweistein]

I didn't read through all of this (will do later when I have more time ;) but I think it's such an important question to discuss! (well, it triggers me badly, lol) 

For example, look at the "Interaction institute for Social Change" and this artwork done by Angus Maguire:  http://interactioninstitute.org/ and http://interactioninstitute.org/equality-equality-cartoon-gallery/ 

Notice that it's showing all men! I will make another post to continue...

[Zweistein]

So, the next version of this picture that I found is this, hard to trace down the source though. Could be: http://muslimgirl.com/46703/heres-care-equity-equality/ ... the pic speaks for itself, right?

[Zweistein]

Yet another version is without the fence and hey, I just found this while looking for it:

https://medium.com/@CRA1G/the-evolution-of-an-accidental-meme-ddc4e139e0e4

Might be a good start for more discussions. But yeah, I gotta go for now....

 

[intrastellar]

19 hours ago, Emerald said:

I recommend ALL the books by Jean Benedict Raffa. She has three of them and one in the works. She's my favorite. I also recommend "The Heroine's Journey" by Maureen Murdoch, "The Pregnant Darkness" by Monika Wikman, "Androgyny" by June Singer, and "Goddesses in Every Woman" by Jean Shinoda Bolen. I also recommend perusing the work of Carl Jung, whose theories form a large part of the basis of the ideas these books were written from. 

You might also try reading work from Merlin Stone, Marian Woodman, Robert Stanford, and others like that. Jean Raffa always has really good bibliographies of suggested literature in the backs of her books. 

Thanks a lot for the suggestions 

[ValiantSalvatore]

20 hours ago, Emerald said:

This can be difficult. But basically just practice some social acuity for whichever group you're in. If a group will be offended by your way of sitting (which is a bit nit-picky, even if it has merit as an outgrowth of problematic social structures) just be mindful of adapting yourself to that particular group. Basically, prioritize, pick your battles, and don't choose the smallest hills as the ones to die upon. But also, I don't recommend being around a lot of "gotcha!" kind of people either. I can't be myself around dogmatic people at all. So, I tend to avoid people who will moralize and can't have an open conversation. Also, many people try to show off their "woke-ness" and criticize others for not being as "woke" as them, calling them on every issue even if the person is making genuine attempts at understanding their point of view. 

But there are plenty of deeper thinking Greens who aren't like this. And even if they aren't open minded to certain ideas, they will have a reason behind it that makes sense within the social structure. 

Adapting to the group or people around me is what I have and had to do my entire life there was not a real peer group for me and when it was it mostly consisted either way of only germans and I was the only "foreigner" (born and raised in germany) or only "foreigners" from different country with one german. I tend to not criticize people if they "seem" not as awake as I am or as other people, I mostly notice how deeply unconscious I am and they are and try to pull myself out of there and pratice mindfulness while unconscious attacks for example happen against my ego. I just get mad when I see stage blue creating hierachies again and pulling people down to their level of consciousness, so they can talk shit about other countries and ethnicities and talk about people and people and people. ( Imagine an elderly blue couple) Also, the person I asked is quite a deep thinker but she does not care really and would be indifferent about it. I like to ask her since she is the person who likes ideologies and new ideas in the social relam that fit her values or could potentially improve some aspects of her life. She can be brutally honest that's why I ask her. It is good to see for me where I am trapped in my socially conditioned thinking and at the sametime what new ideologies are at the forefront of "leftist-green" (political green here / liberal green ) people. 

20 hours ago, Emerald said:

But I would just make sure that you read the situation right and that it isn't just projection. Sometimes, I can feel uncomfortable in situations where I belong to the privileged class, like sometimes when I'm around people of color that I don't know. So, I get like hyper-aware of how I'm behaving and nervous that they're interpreting my completely neutral behavior as racist. Then I try to hide my discomfort, which makes me awkward. And then I'm like, "I'm acting awkward, I hope it's not because they think I'm racist. I don't want them to think I'm a bad person." And it just becomes like this psychological snowball effect of projection and discomfort giving way to more projection and discomfort that's difficult to remove myself from. But this is totally my own projection onto them. They're probably just existing and thinking about totally other things and not even paying attention to me... then I just start acting like a spaz. Basically, it is my own self-judgment projected onto other people in the form of imagining their thoughts about my being a crappy person, which is what I fear people perceive me as because I identify strongly with being a good person. 

Yeah, if read a bit about projection and I like cognitive distorting biases, when I read one I contemplate them for at least a week or so.  I can see what you mean, that you are acting weird around people of color because people from different backgrounds behave differently ( I am half black half white and never experienced black culture besides on tv I AM SO WHITE that's what black people tell me when I meet them) , most likely you just become like you said self-conscious because you want to treat all people equally and be a good person and then become hyper-aware of not acting in a manner that could be considered racist and you want to be seen as a good person. I can imagine you sitting there completely neutral  and acting like a total spaz  would love to see that, and you keep thinking and interpreting thinking and interpreting every slightest move that is made and project that onto yourself and the situation. And then nobody believes anything you said or anything you observed when your self-consciouness stops, since the people who where present experienced the situation differently.

I don't know what kind of shadow work you do or if you do it, yet mindfulness and identifying with my shadow side has helped my quite well with this, till now. To overcome self-defeating thoughts in public settings. Still restaurants drive me nuts, I become self-conscious about how people perceive me since I do not want to look like an idiot and I dislike politness, even though I am fantastically great at it. ( sad polite passive-aggression). 

 

20 hours ago, Emerald said:

Well, don't fear matriarchy because it isn't really possible at this point. Society can't ever really work that way. Esoterically speaking, at matriarchy requires Mother Nature to be in charge. So, we're just too evolved as a human society for us to be in a matriarchy. Basically, nomadic times where we moved to adapt to natural cycles as opposed to manipulating nature for agriculture and settled society, was matriarchal. Not in the sense that women ruled, but in the sense that nature ruled. 

It's humanity's childhood. In fact, patriarchy cam about largely because esoterically-speaking patriarchy is all about invention and dominance over nature. So, up until about the industrial revolution our focus was toward bettering the patriarchal system to give us new innovations and technology to create a protective wedge between us as an under-developed human species and the mightiness of Mother Nature. This is why the feminine has been resisted for so long, because the goal prior to the modern era was to survive and insulate ourselves from Mother Nature though innovation and refinement of civilization. We had a fear of the feminine, that still lingers in the unconscious today because of the link to Mother Nature's most destructive forces. 

But at the end of the Blue stage, when Orange was first dawning in the form of the industrial revolution, we finally got to be very effective at manipulating and insulating ourselves from the forces of nature. Even our instincts were largely stifled under so many layers of empty civility. And human society was becoming really effective at insulating ourselves from nature and dominating it.

So, Alan Watts once said, "The tree creates apples, and the Earth creates people." (paraphrased). So, we as humans are an outgrowth of the Earth. So, because we reached a point where we had become super effective with patriarchy and planetary dominance, the Earth as a system (which we have a deep connection with) triggered a change in human beings and a change in social structure began. And that's why I believe Feminism didn't come up until about 100-120 years ago. That's when patriarchy started to reach a critical point, where its growth and development started to go from benign to cancerous. It's probably why the Amish stopped when they did.

But one of the ways I think it will become more possible to integrate the Divine Feminine back into society, is changing more surface level power structures. So, when a woman goes into labor, the cervix has to dilate and many structure near the birth canal have to change position to allow room for the baby to be born. So, I see the shifting of societal taboos as being a way to prime society in a similar way, so we can collectively "give birth" to the feminine. 

I can see what you mean with divine feminine in the esoteric sense. I never thought about it that way more of the qualities only inside people and nature but not the whole "mother of nature / evolution".  When yellow truly integrates divine feminin and masculin , I am looking forward to how both of these are manifested in the external relam. I've listend to the evolution of the stages from ken wilber(from horde cultural to industrial),did you read any books about history or are there any you can recommend ? Why did the Amish do ? lol The analogy of giving birth to the feminin will never go out of my head. 

I have the quote of Alan Watts hanging in my room, so I will quote it:

We do not "come into" this world; we come out of it as leaves from a tree. As the ocean "waves" the universe "peoples". Every individual is an expresion of the whole realm of nature, a unique action of the total universe. This fact is rarely, if ever, experienced by most individuals. Even those who know it to be true in theory do not sense or feel it, but continue to be aware of themselves as isolated "egos" inside bags of skin. 

I also like this one:

"It must be obvious... that there is a contradiction in wanting to be perfectly secure in a universe whose very nature is momentariness and fluidity"

 

20 hours ago, Emerald said:

I'm not really doing any particular practices to embody these energies. Sometimes just knowing that something is masculine or feminine can be a barrier in and of itself, because the mind gets in the way. The main thing I've done is to be aware of things that are generally filed into the masculine principle and feminine principle across cultures, and observe which ones I like and which ones I don't. Usually the feminine things I have a resistance too by nature of my conditionings. So, it's really a matter of understanding that I do have biases and trying to understand them at a deep level, and understanding that femininity is more than society thinks it is. But the majority of these understandings came from a time period when I was reading about the topic a whole bunch. It helped me empty my cup of many feminine resistances.

But whenever I'm looking at something, I can notice it in a symbolic way and a non-symbolic way. So, I can notice how my mind tries to super-impose symbols over reality, and how that insulates me from being. So, it's a way to switch my focus from an esoterically masculine perception of the world which is based around utility to an esoterically feminine perception of the world which is based upon being. 

That is why I would like to pratice yoga and experience it for myself what masculin and feminin is and where these concepts originated from. I hope you have been to china or an other asian country the dynamics of people who live there is so different I love it, I bet you can contemplate these concepts perfectly in the chaos of the "eastern" lifestyle / infrastructure / social dynamic.

[ValiantSalvatore]

17 hours ago, Elisabeth said:

Haha, that position is interesting, thanks for bringing that up. Notice how women do NOT sit in that position. We would be educated by our MOTHERS when little to not sit with legs apart - apparently it's inappropriate for a woman to open her legs even if fully clothed. Slut shaming at it's finest. (Yet we can sit with our legs crossed wrapped tightly which I understand to be hardly physiologically possible for men.)

I don't link that position to dominance but I did envy men their open positions at times. 

This is how comfort IS dominance - if women don't have the same freedom (by upbringing) than taking the position of comfort is actually a display of "privilege". Interesting systemic connection. (I'm sure though there are ways in which roles are reversed, though they may be fewer.)

Sit however you want. I prefer to empower women to also take a "dominant" position to levelling the field by making restrictions. Thanks for being aware. 

Thanks  you  can also thank my friend. She brought that up. I never thought of it that it could be a privileg, it this is something I am contemplating currently the concept of privileg. (since 2 days or so). I know what you mean with woman getting shunned for acting contrary to their socially imprinted role/behaviour. I also tend to sit sometimes like the crossed legged position women tend to do. https://www.quora.com/What-are-your-thoughts-on-men-sitting-with-their-legs-crossed

I listened to some JP video where he talked about body language and that he uses it for comfort as far as I remember and that it is better to use this position sometimes since it makes you smaller ? It can be comfortable.. but not always lol. In China people also sat liked that so, that was the first time I noticed it, it did look kind of elegant, sometimes arrogant, but not always. I never saw it in the EU besides when I went to uni and my profs. start sitting like it so for me it is the "liberal intellectual" way of sitting approriately. 

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Zweistein I like the picture it would be nice if people could have the same equality of outcome and equality of chance. Yet, this can only be an ideal imo. I would love to see a goverment which builds the neccesary structure to increase peoples overall capabillities and also educating the new generation for instance about parenting, so they can provide the best outcome for children and how to optimally raise their childrens talents and predispostions. Yet, I do not think that it is possible to the degree people would love to want it. I like this from Alan Watts without Chaos their would not be order, without inequality we would not know what equality is, same goes for justice, but we could provide a structure which strives to combine both, so maybe at one point these concept's would stop existing since they have been integrated to such a degree, that there is not a polarizing force anymore. I don't know why there are only boys on the picture, I think marketing or pictures / memes nowadays are quite egalitarian. imo

[Zweistein]

Well, if I could choose, I would call it equitism instead of feminism or gender equality.

@Emerald Wow, interesting observations regarding the different stages! I will check out these books!

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Zweistein

[SFRL]

 

[Leo Gura]

People who gripe about feminism usually haven't ever bothered to study it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

Ask yourself this: "How many books have I read on this topic?"

The whole point of griping is that its a distraction from study, contemplation, and understanding.

[Edvard]

What if it turns out feminism doesn't work just according to the ideology/book of feminism? That's why I think it's silly to give it such a colored word.  Just why? And why no blackism, disableism, gayism? BTW. 

It is also silly in the sense that it's just divisive. It just scares Orange and Blue people away. But then again, this is Green and not Yellow.

Also, what man/masculine person calls himself a feminist? 

What about just subscribing to whatever-works-ism? 

I have nothing against women being equal though. I think that would be best, but what that means I don't know. I just care about equal opportunities. But you can't be too fundamentalistic here either. There are biological differences that we know of and don't know of. No reason to commit to anything here.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Edvard

[Zweistein]

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

Feminism strikes more at the core of the movement than the word "Equitism". As much as Feminism is about gender equality, the deeper implications of the word are that it's meant to aide in the re-integration of the Divine Feminine. So, really it's a movement geared toward undoing the Feminine repression that has fragmented human society for thousands of years. So, esoterically speaking, Feminism is an incredibly appropriate word for its end-game. 

I'm a woman hiding behind a male name - exactly because I feel like I'm not taken seriously otherwise. So, yes of course - I hear you, Emerald! 

On the other hand, imagine if this movement was about equity - then men wouldn't rebell so much, because they would feel included - right? 

Edited July 4, 2018 by Zweistein