The Idea That Non-duality Includes Duality Doesn’t Resonate With Me

[Natasha]

23 minutes ago, SOUL said:

So to illuminate and clarify this all what we seek in experience through what is called 'enlightenment' is to be present in the moment just simply being with all the ideas and concepts of non-duality, no mind, 'you do not exist' and truth with a capital 'T' that are typically associated with the 'enlightenment' serve to be additional distractions of illusory perception and not distinct characteristics of the experience sought.

The mind is trying to figure out, while 'what is' is not conceptual at all.

[SOUL]

46 minutes ago, Natasha said:

The mind is trying to figure out, while 'what is' is not conceptual at all.

 The brain has evolved to create conceptualizations in an effort to understand 'what is' and that is it's 'what is'  state of mind. Our awareness is observing this state of mind but it isn't in itself that state of mind.

Ultimately what is called enlightenment is the clearing of awareness so it isn't subject to and dominated by the ever-changing state of mind so it stays present in the moment simply being.

Edited December 16, 2017 by SOUL

[WelcometoReality]

@Joseph Maynor Duality is the form and non duality is the formless.

Duality is: there is a me over here and a you over there. But infact there is no me and no you AND there is no here and no there. It all is the formless in the form of form.

Without the formless there is no form. Everywhere and everything is within the formless which is nowhere. 

[Joseph Maynor]

Watch this video -- it's highly relevant to this discussion.

I know you folks are busy, but you gotta make the time to watch this video.

This video is so on point!

 

Edited December 16, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, SOUL said:

So to illuminate and clarify this all what we seek in experience through what is called 'enlightenment' is to be present in the moment just simply being with all the ideas and concepts of non-duality, no mind, 'you do not exist' and truth with a capital 'T' that are typically associated with the 'enlightenment' serve to be additional distractions of illusory perception and not distinct characteristics of the experience sought.

Enlightenment is NOT simply "being in the moment" as you understand that phrase.

A better description would be: to die.

[egoless]

@Leo Gura I already had some ego death experiences. How is the enlightenment different you become dead permanently? 

[Nahm]

@egoless you’ll have one that transcends physical. You’ll be like, what?! I get to know this now, see this now, and still live out this “life”?! It is like winning the lottery of reality. 

[snowleopard]

14 hours ago, egoless said:

become dead permanently? 

@egoless I wonder, what does becoming dead mean, since there is no origin or causation in the first place? Can anyone point to when one began?  And if no beginning, what does that mean for its ending?

Edited December 17, 2017 by snowleopard

[Faceless]

To die psychologically to the me...”you” began when you became self aware. Perhaps around the age of 18 months. When memory and the response to that memory had taken place. 

This psychological me is the root of division. 

If this is seen that there is no beginning or end and that this is a product of the divided nature of the center than death looses its meaning. Therefore fear of death ceases. This is liberation. This is insight. 

 

 

 

[SOUL]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Enlightenment is NOT simply "being in the moment" as you understand that phrase.

A better description would be: to die.

Thousands of years ago a seeker was lost on the path between the extremes of self indulgence and self mortification, of living to the self and dying to the self, but then was awakened to the middle path and liberated in enlightenment. Awaken to being in the moment of nirvana.

Edited December 17, 2017 by SOUL

[Nahm]

@SOUL glass and sand are made of atoms, which are empty because they are illusion, and yet whole because they are you. Since you are made of atoms, which are also nothing, the question is, what are you.

[SOUL]

@Nahm The illusion of atoms is both being empty and full, being both something and nothing, the ones who are awakened to the middle way are liberated from that illusion.

Edited December 17, 2017 by SOUL

[Nahm]

@SOUL awakened is to see that you are reality, and all atoms are illusion. The middle way was the first thing the Buddha talked about upon awaking, and it is relative to desire and gratification / endulgence. It was not intended as literal verbiage, it is advice on living life as a human, to humans who were not as serious as Sidhartha relative to the pursuit of what they themselves are. 

[SOUL]

20 minutes ago, Nahm said:

It was not intended as literal verbiage, it is advice on living life as a human, to humans who were not as serious as Sidhartha relative to the pursuit of what they themselves are

So you are suggesting that upon awakening Sidhartha first talked about something not related to his own pursuit, not related to awakening? Being too preoccupied with the 'pursuit of what we are' as nothing or something is exactly what this wisdom is speaking to right now.

[Nahm]

@SOUL he went within to find a way without suffering and came out with something to say about suffering being within.   

[Dodo]

19 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Enlightenment is NOT simply "being in the moment" as you understand that phrase.

A better description would be: to die.

But it's not the usual death (through car crash/suicide etc), so maybe there is a more accurate term?  

[Shin]

You could also stop thinking about all this stuff.

You could just meditate and self-inquiry using all your free time everyday, until you have a huge mystical experience in which you will understand what you're trying to understand here (which is impossible using thoughts).

All you're doing here questioning us, is just pure waste of time, you're only doing it because you're distracting yourself (and firmly believing you're not).

 

You can, it's up to you, it's a choice.

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Shin

[SOUL]

@Nahm Absolutely, although the self-mortification and self-denial in his day is the no self, ego death and 'you do not exist' teaching of this day.

The middle path teaches us to not be obsessed or identified with self or no self, with ego or no ego but instead to attune our awareness in the present moment of just being.

 In the in the simplicity of this middle path we find inner peace. I speak this from experience right  now not from a teaching.

 

[Nahm]

@SOUL thats beautiful.  the middle way certainly loops in full circle over and over. ime

[Leo Gura]

40 minutes ago, Dodo said:

But it's not the usual death (through car crash/suicide etc), so maybe there is a more accurate term?  

"More accurate term" is a relative notion. For different people different terms will work best given their preconceptions. And everyone has their unique preconceptions.

To me, "death" is the best description of it. But other people might not resonate with that.

Personally, I like using the most shocking descriptions of it, because it's a very shocking thing. To me, the essence of enlightenment is the shock and total mindfuck of it. To me, any description which leaves that out, is highly misleading because it doesn't properly communicate the staggering radicalness of this insight.

"Death" is a great term because when the average person hears that, they go, "OMG! That can't be true! It's too radical! He must mean something more metaphorical by that." But no... I mean your actual death! That communicates the gravity of this thing.

The problem with "Being in the present moment" is that is has zero gravity to it. It's a completely non-threatening description. People misconstrue that as like sitting at the bus stop waiting for a bus. That ain't it.

Calling enlightenment "Being in the present moment" is like calling a nuclear bomb a firecracker because both are a kind of explosion. But the magnitude of the explosion makes all the difference in the world!