Martin Ball says physical reality is real

[Leo Gura]

17 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

If all there is are hallucinations then that becomes reality because of lack of alternatives.  

Yes. Good.

[Hojo]

3 hours ago, Jirh said:

That's not what I'm saying. I'm not denying that consciousness exists. Obviously, it does.

I'm doubting that consciousness is all that there is. There could be something outside of it, and I'm open to that possibility, even if most people are closed to it.

Conciousness is the outside. Its like saying there must be something outside this house. I'm saying conciousness is outside the house. And you are saying there must be something outside the outside of the house.

When you go outside you are outside. Theres no outside of the outside. When you go outside theres nothing but outside.

The grass on your lawn is as outside your house as the orions belt.

Edited 15 hours ago by Hojo

[Sandhu]

4 hours ago, Jirh said:

I don't know about others, but for me, hitting a limitation does not mean reaching a final conclusion. It means stalemate until clarity emerges, if it ever does.

What is inside and what is outside? Haven't yet you realized that these categories are mind construct. After awakening you realize that Consciousness is the most fundamental thing. It's saying as if you can there be other space than this space. Can there be something different and fundamental than space. No, space is fundamental in our realative world. You're thinking of consciousness as of some concept or theory. It is fundamental thing.

[Sandhu]

People with baseline low intelligence can't reach truth. They will be deluded. It's hard to accept but it is what it is. 

[Joseph Maynor]

When he discusses psychedelics it might be better to give actual trip reports rather than speak generally about certain psychedelics.

[Wilhelm44]

33 minutes ago, Sandhu said:

People with baseline low intelligence can't reach truth. They will be deluded. It's hard to accept but it is what it is. 

Truth is right in front of our noses. A junkie can wake up in a gutter right now.

God is not elitist in that way.

[Vynce]

1 hour ago, Sandhu said:

People with baseline low intelligence can't reach truth. They will be deluded. It's hard to accept but it is what it is. 

Very intelligent people are also dead asleep. Look at Joscha Bach or Christopher Langan. 200iq+ but are frightened to awake. Its all about the sincere commitment to actual truth, in whatever form it may come. 

Edited 12 hours ago by Vynce

[OBEler]

46:00 he defines physical reality. Its something behind your projections.

@Leo Gura you say there is nothing behind your direct projection. But not even a projection behind a projection? So layers of projections? Like for example martin balls view, there is a projected Tree out there and I see it with my ego projection?

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, Jirh said:

It's still a hard problem, even with awakening considered.

Awakening just means realizing that consciousness is absolute. But that realization is self-biased, because it's coming from consciousness. We need something outside of consciousness to confirm that conclusion. But to us, there is nothing outside of consciousness. So we lack the required instruments to make a final conclusion.

The hard problem of consciousness negates materialism, but it doesn't confirm idealism.

You can't realize that consciousness is absolute because it's relative. If you erase any relation, consciousness disappear. 

You are the only non believer in this conversation. Well, and me. All others have adopted a dogma, the absolute consciousness, and they believe that they realised it. That's how the human mind works.

Edited 12 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Jirh]

3 hours ago, Hojo said:

I'm saying conciousness is outside the house.

I don't understand how some of you guys seem so confident about this. Personally, I only ever directly know the house and what's inside of it. I can't say anything about what's outside the house. I mean I could talk, but I wouldn't know.

[Jirh]

2 hours ago, Sandhu said:

What is inside and what is outside? Haven't yet you realized that these categories are mind construct.

After awakening you realize that Consciousness is the most fundamental thing.

If inside and outside are categories and mind constructs, then so are before awakening and after awakening. So what's the point here?

[Hojo]

38 minutes ago, OBEler said:

46:00 he defines physical reality. Its something behind your projections.

@Leo Gura you say there is nothing behind your direct projection. But not even a projection behind a projection? So layers of projections? Like for example martin balls view, there is a projected Tree out there and I see it with my ego projection?

Think like reality is a tv set. You the ego are behind the tv set watching it, the seperation between reality and the universe. The seperation can realize that it's not part of the the tv at all. Then the seperation can see that it dosent exist and its a dissosation of the tv set and only the tv set exists.

God is none of those. There is something else.

God is literally something else.

Edited 11 hours ago by Hojo

[Breakingthewall]

Imagine that your memory becomes zero and you can't register change. For you there is no time, same than for the perspective of a foton. There is only one instant that doesn't changes. Are you conscious? 

Think about it. Without process there is no consciousness, because there is nothing to be  conscious of. Consciousness is a process. You could say that consciousness is the process where the reality sees itself, because the subject and the object are ultimately the same reality, but consciousness is not the foundation of reality, is a possibility of the reality. 

I think some mystics like nisgardatta, who went deeper, understood this obvious fact. 

But you, who read this, are going to feel attacked in your dogma, because you need to be enlightened, believe in Jesus of anything, and you won't open yourself to the absolute never. That's life. No hindrance for knowing is bigger than believing that you already know, because you need it emotionally to feel safe. Human behaviour. 

Edited 11 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Hojo said:

You the ego are behind the tv set watching it, the seperation between reality and the universe. The seperation can realize that it's not part of the the tv at all. Then the seperation can see that it dosent exist and its a dissosation of the tv set and only the tv set exists.

Typical mistake of non duality. As they need that the reality is non dual they affirm that the subject doesn't exist. Don't would be more simple admit that the reality can split in many levels, as we can see in everything, and all them are the reality?

Ultimately reality is unlimited, external limits are impossible, because would be out of reality. but due this reason relative internal limits are inevitable. Internal limits are form, and form in not an illusion, is how reality manifest itself. It's like saying that a city is an illusion because everything is the earth, there is no city, only earth. Wtf, there are cities in the earth, period.

You guys want to understand or narcotize your minds with mental labyrinths?

Edited 8 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Hojo]

@Breakingthewall its because I can't say it. I can point to it by saying the subject and objective dont exist.

Edited 10 hours ago by Hojo

[JoshB]

8 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

That doesn't mean a dream isn't real. If all there is are hallucinations then that becomes reality because of lack of alternatives.  

I didn't deny the status of reality of being a dream. I was pointing out if Martin himself had actually realized he is dreaming. 

Which it sounds like he hasn't

Edited 9 hours ago by JoshB

[Carl-Richard]

20 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Carl-Richard But Martin clearly said that he believes in a distinction between dreams and the physical world.

We did not strawman him.

Do you literally believe you can turn into an alien reptile right now on camera? No. So you believe there is a distinction between waking reality and "dreams" in this sense. That's the distinction he is making. Dreams morph, waking reality is generally more stable. You can blur the boundaries with psychedelics and psychotic states and of course hypnagogic states, but you're of course aware that everyday sober waking reality is generally different from a dream in this sense. You will find your bike where you left it generally.

You will say "just because reality is a dream doesn't mean it doesn't have rules". Ok, let's talk about the one set of rules we can call waking reality. Martin just calls this set of rules "not dreamlike", which is perhaps not such a dumb idea. I've said it before: you're subscribed to a flat ontology. You want everything to be just "hallucination, imagination". Ok, but we can create sub-categories within that.

Edited 9 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

NO.

You do not know what you are talking about.

You know, you gotta stop saying that. Consciousness is only within the domain of the known. When you deal with the unknown, anything is possible. But as the unknown is unknown, it doesn't make for a good stable grounding of one's metaphysics. Hence "consciousness is the ground of reality" is a good starting point. Because that is as far as what you can know. But to say you've by definition excluded the possibilities of the unknown, you're confused.

 

Edited 8 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Breakingthewall]

35 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Hence "consciousness is the ground of reality" is a good starting point.

That's just anthrophormize the reality. Same than believing in a bearded god that created you. It's not a good starting point, is a final barrier. 

Edited 8 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Carl-Richard]

51 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

That's just anthrophormize the reality. Same than believing in a bearded god that created you. It's not a good starting point, is a final barrier. 

It's entirely silly to put your stock in the unknown, especially when the known itself reduced to its ultimate, is essentially indistinguishable from nothing. But you can still give the credence to the unknown, by making the distinction. In other words, asking "can there be anything outside of consciousness?" is like asking "can there be anything outside of nothing?". It's not very fruitful but you can ask the question. I.e. it doesn't make much sense for there to be something outside of nothing. But you can always postulate a something that you don't know. Non-duality is when you say "cut the crap, you don't have to postulate shit, reality still is".

Edited 7 hours ago by Carl-Richard