Challenging Leo on women

[Alexop]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

When we talk about dating advice, we are generalizing.

Got it Sir.

[AION]

you guys are taking these value models like spiral dynamics way out of proportion, it has only partly to do with it, mostly it has to do with her age.. after 25 she will start to calcify after all of those pumps and dumps so she will become more masculine in her personality. the best is to catch a girl between 20-25 age range , that will give you a good shot for a long term relationship. higher age ranges can be possible but be ready for a world of hurt

 

[BlessedLion]

On 8/30/2026 at 10:03 AM, Emerald said:

So, for women, the main challenge isn't to become more attractive.... it's to become more discerning and more authentic and particularized and therefore disgusting to the wrong ones.

Sure, i don't disagree with you that women need to be discerning and sort men out.

But I would argue that women already do this "disgust factoring" with their laundry list of red flags and ick factors, which is why they are so picky and why so few men actually get sex, a problem that is only getting worse and leaving more women and men lonely, bitter, and frustrated.

 

I also don't think women shouldn't have a life purpose, something they are excited about, their own independence, etc. I for one do not want to be anyone's fucking charity case and pay for all their meals etc, or they have no intelligence, independence, art.

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by BlessedLion
contemplating

[Alexop]

3 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

 

I also don't think women shouldn't have a life purpose, something they are excited about, their own independence, etc. I for one do not want to be anyone's fucking charity case and pay for all their meals etc, or they have no intelligence, independence, art.

Yes. Women without a direction are boring. What can they offer besides of some sex and company? If she also has a developed masculine side, it is more exciting. You are in for a journey together. 

[Alexop]

3 hours ago, AION said:

you guys are taking these value models like spiral dynamics way out of proportion, it has only partly to do with it, mostly it has to do with her age.. after 25 she will start to calcify after all of those pumps and dumps so she will become more masculine in her personality. the best is to catch a girl between 20-25 age range , that will give you a good shot for a long term relationship. higher age ranges can be possible but be ready for a world of hurt

 

Depends which men they met. But I feel you. Most men are shit, so there is a good risk they met some assholes down the road, that eroded their femininity. They cannot be truly feminine without exposing themselves to trauma. That would be the core of femininity, to completely let go and fall in love and trust him.

Edited 4 hours ago by Alexop

[Emerald]

On 8/30/2026 at 3:27 AM, aurum said:

I do have a different way of thinking about it, but these are good points.

I appreciate the feedback.

[Emerald]

On 8/30/2026 at 10:58 AM, Alexop said:

wow! Emerald is back! Welcome back! Cool perspective!

Thank you!

[Joshe]

On 8/30/2026 at 11:46 AM, LordFall said:

@Natasha Tori Maru is also right that you clearly aren't deeply yellow since you started with the conclusion that spiral dynamics is invalid because it's unfair and when I debunked your point instead of understanding my perspective and adding it to yours; you got triggered and attacked me and did this weird thing where I should have to do the intellectual labor of making your point for you.

Of course I'm not yellow, lol. Seriously, I am not yellow and I don't claim to be because the idea of yellow is so flawed and absurd that I would not apply such a silly ass notion to myself.

Also, it wasn't weird at all. I was actually generous in giving you a high quality line of contemplation you could go down. I was kind of hoping you'd spend 5-10 minutes on it to see if you could pick up on any error signals. I wasn't sure if you would, but then you showed you wouldn't, which is why I said I had higher hopes, because I did. Was just being honest, not trying to be condescending. 

Also, the fact that you and a few other SD folk here have placed me at green just reveals how bad SD is. Your definition of green includes that it cannot see what its mind is doing, which is the most absurd thing you could apply to me. As well as to assume that I lack the ability to form comprehensive perspectives and dive into them on a whim.

And of course, the communities behavioral heuristics used to discern an individual's likely position on the spiral is one of the big issues. "Triggered", neuroticism, excitability, etc. are largely stable traits and say nothing about being multi-perspectival, biased, or blind to its own mind. Which you would know if had good models of trait psychology and pondered it for 10 seconds. 

I'll respect OP and save the SD talk for later. In the meantime, if you want to "transcend and include" SD, look into how trait psychology complicates it. Also, look into what emotional purpose SD serves for the small sliver of the population who cares about self-development (to get a good look at bias). Also, look into why with everything including green and below, SD is describing things you can see in the world at scale. But above green, it's pointing at an ideal and traits, then calling it the next stage when it's really a prediction based on the creator's biased preferences and lack of understanding trait psychology. And look into how SD isn't even a model, but a heuristic, and that tier 2 is an extrapolation from the tier 1 heuristic. Lastly, look into how traits themselves generate values/preferences and then get mistaken for values you arrived at via development. Talk later.

FYI, I've never even had the thought that SD is unfair. My issue is that it's not accurate, not that stages exist. Although, what the ego does with those stages is quite repulsive to me. Maybe you picked up on that repulsion and mistook it as evidence for my spiral location. 

Edited 44 minutes ago by Joshe

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

But I would argue that women already do this "disgust factoring" with their laundry list of red flags and ick factors, which is why they are so picky and why so few men actually get sex, a problem that is only getting worse and leaving more women and men lonely, bitter, and frustrated.

I don't think women are selective enough, because it takes a lot of self-knowledge and knowledge about how relationships work to learn how to select well.

Plus, the way that most women learn how to strike a good match from the culture is like, "Be as attractive and pleasing as you possibly can."

So, a lot of inexperienced women end up trying to be as attractive as possible to attract a partner... but don't realize that attraction is a less effective tool for her desired ends compared to developing high levels of discernment.

And you can see that there are often attractive women with low self-esteem and terrible partners that treat them terribly... because they over-relied on the tool attraction and didn't develop their discernment.

Contrast that with instances where a woman is unattractive or plain but highly discerning... these women often end up with great husbands.

Of course, an attractive woman can also end up with a great husband if she's highly discerning. And an unattractive woman can end up with a terrible partner if her self-esteem and level of discernment is low.

But my main point is that level of attractiveness for women has very little to do with her ability to have a great relationship with a great man. (which is what women tend to want)

So, it's honestly safer and better for women to be very vigilant about red flags and ick factors, as women who are sensitive to these things will ends up with a better partner and her life will improve when she's in a relationship with that partner.

Think about it like developing sensitivity... like in The Princess and the Pea.

The true princess is so sensitive and discerning that she can sense the pea underneath 9 mattresses.

And that's analogous to a woman being so sensitive and aware of what she likes and doesn't like, that she doesn't entertain people, places, and things that have "the pea" underneath their facades.

The trick is to become the kind of guy that doesn't have too many peas (fewer red flags and fewer icks).

But unfortunately, the systems that men often use to become "more attractive" will increase their number of peas in the eyes of the discerning woman... but increase their attractiveness to women who haven't built that level of discernment.  

So, there-in lies the problem. 

Edit: It reminds me a bit of this video that I watched the other day where a woman created 4 fake dating profiles and gathered data on what kinds of guys were interested. The results are in the last 40% of the video.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Emerald

[AION]

2 hours ago, Alexop said:

Depends which men they met. But I feel you. Most men are shit, so there is a good risk they met some assholes down the road, that eroded their femininity. They cannot be truly feminine without exposing themselves to trauma. That would be the core of femininity, to completely let go and fall in love and trust him.

Not just relationship. With age, life makes people harder too. It is harder to bond with such people.

Edited 2 hours ago by AION

[Alexop]

59 minutes ago, AION said:

Not just relationship. With age, life makes people harder too. It is harder to bond with such people.

Not necessarily. It is mostly the people she had in her life that calcifies her.

[Joshe]

23 hours ago, aurum said:

Yellow is not about accuracy of models, it's a meta-orientation towards all models, paradigms and perspectives.

So, two people with the same range of models and cognition can differ in their orientation to them. For example, person A could care about utility and thus want to discard more, and person B could care about exploration and want to collect more. 

When your framework says that one of these is a higher form of development, it's smuggling in a value judgement.