Is the US now at war with Iran? (US vs. Iran Discussion)

[Inliytened1]

9 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Even if they did have the facts, they lack the ability to make sense of it. And even if they could make sense of it, they wouldn’t be interested in doing so. This is the saddest thing about the US. They’ve been too comfortable and ignorant for too long in a cushy environment, which has dulled their wits. 

Everyone's too busy just trying to pay rent it's like what @Daniel Balan said earlier.  It doesn't make a difference anyway.

Edited 13 hours ago by Inliytened1

[zazen]

12 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

@zazen look - let's just get it out in the open that even though you live in the US you don't support the United States in any way.  In fact it seems you support Iran and its proxies in its political views and goals. Now, i'm not quite sure yet on your religious beliefs, but not important.  What bothers me is not that you don't support the country you live in, but it's that you don't want to look at things unbiased.  All you want to see is how right the groups you defend are and how wrong everyone else is or whomever opposed them.   To me, as bright as you are - that leaves you limited.

I’m based in UK and from a mixed background. I have critically thought about the situation, and have come to conclusions as to who’s the most de-stabilising force in the world that’s causing death and destruction. It’s not bias to point that out, just clarity - and I don’t have any cognitive dissonance doing so as I don’t identify with any nation, religion or people.

Heres how I make sense of it all:

If we lived at the time of the British Empire or during the Holocaust - would it be okay for people to just say “well that’s power isn’t it, that’s how the world and geopolitics works, it’s not about morals”. The point is we are humans, not robots. On some level we have a sense of right and wrong which stems from the soul. But then how do we explain why people do wrong yet don’t feel it to be wrong?

I think what happens is that peoples moral compasses get hijacked due to external circumstance, but that doesn’t make it an internal condition which is a racist or essentialist claim. Context (circumstances) distort, suppress or invert our conscience (morality). Germans turning around from Nazism shows that context > innateness.  Nazism was a perfect shit storm of contextual forces that hijacked human morality on a mass scale leading to the worst atrocities.

Moral distortion is psychological-survival based, moral suppression is empire-domination based, moral inversion is ideological-puritanical based.

Resistance groups belong to the first category (localised geopolitical struggle), Zionism is mainly a mix of the first two (started with geopolitical survival but became dominating), US nuking Japan and doing all they’ve done till today is mainly moral suppression (morality suspended for the cold calculus of empire), Nazism and ISIS are the last two (global domination to purify the world - apocalyptic politics not just geopolitics) in other words: evil.

Distorted morality is survival logic (liberation), suppressed morality is empire logic (domination), inverted morality is purity logic (evil).

Israel right now seems to be locked into a distorted feedback loop of (past) trauma justifying (present) domination. The context today is that they have power that is distorted by paranoia, rooted from a time in which they lacked any power to survive. Their moral compass is hijacked by a permanent sense of threat that has been heightened beyond what it really is due to past trauma. And despite being materially developed (powerful) they are morally compromised (in principles).

This is the key tension that causes a lot of confusion (even politically between left and right). To defer to power (conserve to survive - quality and might make right) or to defer to principle (liberate to thrive - equality and fairness are rights). These need to be synthesised.

The lefts blind spot is to deny the reality of survival and power dynamics because it counters their own idea of human goodness. The rights blindspot is to just succumb to raw power dynamics without principles to buffer and refine power itself.

The realities of survival and power threatens the lefts moral framework because they haven’t synthesized the ideals of principles - with the realities of power and survival. They either deny those realities or have an incorrect relationship to it - viewing hierarchy and power as bad ie communism being the extreme political manifestation. The right succumb to power dynamics with little to no moral framework - only justifying power as principle itself, with facism being their extreme political manifestation on the other end of the spectrum.

The bottom line is that the physical nature of power isn’t good by default - the concept of good doesn’t even exist in that plane. It’s just raw and neutral - and only becomes good when nurtured by principles from the non-physical plane of the soul. We are both ruled (down to earth) by power and pulled (up to heaven) by principles.

Civilization is about buffering the reality of power with the conscience of principles - or them finally coming together. 

Edited 10 hours ago by zazen

[Joshe]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

Everyone's too busy just trying to pay rent it's like what @Daniel Amen said earlier.  It doesn't make a difference anyway.

Nice try. Americans are too busy spending half their time fucking off. Lots of thing contribute to what America is, but if you want to answer the question “why aren’t Americans aware of worldly affairs and why don’t they care about it?”, you should easily be able to peg “just not giving a fuck” as a bigger factor than their job. 

[Inliytened1]

35 minutes ago, zazen said:

I’m based in UK and from a mixed background. I have critically thought about the situation, and have come to conclusions as to who’s the most de-stabilising force in the world that’s causing death and destruction. It’s not bias to point that out, just clarity - and I don’t have any cognitive dissonance doing so as I don’t identify with any nation, religion or people.

Heres how I make sense of it all:

If we lived at the time of the British Empire or during the Holocaust - would it be okay for people to just say “well that’s power isn’t it, that’s how the world and geopolitics works, it’s not about morals”. The point is we are humans, not robots. On some level we have a sense of right and wrong which stems from the soul. But then how do we explain why people do wrong yet don’t feel it to be wrong?

I think what happens is that peoples moral compasses get hijacked due to external circumstance, but that doesn’t make it an internal condition which is a racist or essentialist claim. Context (circumstances) distort, disengage or invert conscience (morality). Germans turning around from Nazism shows that context > innateness.  Nazism was a perfect shit storm of contextual forces that hijacked human morality on a mass scale leading to the worst atrocities.

Moral distortion is psychological-survival based, moral disengagement is empire-domination based, moral inversion is ideological-puritanical based. Resistance groups belong to the first category (localised geopolitical struggle), Zionism is a mix of the first two (started with geopolitical survival that became domination), US nuking Japan and doing all they’ve done till today is mainly moral disengagement (morality is suspended for the cold calculus of empire), Nazism and ISIS are the last two (global domination to purify the world - apocalyptic politics not just geopolitics) in other words: evil.

Distorted morality is survival logic (liberation), disengaged morality is empire logic (domination), inverted morality is purity logic (evil).

Israel right now seems to be locked into a distorted feedback loop of (past) trauma justifying (present) domination. The context today is that have power that is disrupted by paranoia, rooted from a time they lacked any power to survive. Their moral compass is hijacked by a permanent sense of threat that has been heightened beyond what it really is due to past trauma. And despite being materially developed (powerful) they are morally compromised (in principles).

This is the key tension that causes a lot of confusion (even politically between left and right). To defer to power (conserve to survive - quality and might make right) or to defer to principle (liberate to thrive - equality and fairness are rights). These need to be synthesised.

The lefts blind spot is to deny the reality of survival and power dynamics because it counters their own idea of human goodness. The rights blindspot is to just succumbs to raw power dynamics without principles to buffer and refine power itself.

The realities of survival and power threatens the lefts moral framework because they haven’t synthesized the ideals of principles - with the realities of power and survival. They either deny those realities or have an incorrect relationship to it - viewing hierarchy and power as bad ie communism being the extreme political manifestation. The right succumb to power dynamics with little to no moral framework - only justifying power as principle itself, with facism being their extreme political manifestation on the other end of the spectrum.

The bottom line is that the physical nature of power isn’t good by default - the concept of good doesn’t even exist in that plane. It’s just raw and neutral - and only becomes good when nurtured by principles from the non-physical plane of the soul. We are both ruled (down to earth) by power and pulled (up to heaven) by principles.

Civilization is about buffering the reality of power with the conscience of principles - or them finally coming together. 

That's a lot to read. But I'm honored. You're one of the people here that I have most respect for..because you are thoughtful and put a lot of time into your posts.  I tend to be impatient with mine.  But..and I'll go back and read your post again. The one thing that stuck out was your point about Israel. I do feel like they have a tyrant in charge currently who has completely dropped the reins and is hell bent on domination.  Thats fu ked up.  But at the same time you can kinda see how Israel has evolved..or devolved, for that matter, in order to fit with the times.

Edited 12 hours ago by Inliytened1

[Wilhelm44]

12 minutes ago, zazen said:

I’m based in UK and from a mixed background. I have critically thought about the situation, and have come to conclusions as to who’s the most de-stabilising force in the world that’s causing death and destruction. It’s not bias to point that out, just clarity - and I don’t have any cognitive dissonance doing so as I don’t identify with any nation, religion or people.

Heres how I make sense of it all:

If we lived at the time of the British Empire or during the Holocaust - would it be okay for people to just say “well that’s power isn’t it, that’s how the world and geopolitics works, it’s not about morals”. The point is we are humans, not robots. On some level we have a sense of right and wrong which stems from the soul. But then how do we explain why people do wrong yet don’t feel it to be wrong?

I think what happens is that peoples moral compasses get hijacked due to external circumstance, but that doesn’t make it an internal condition which is a racist or essentialist claim. Context (circumstances) distort, disengage or invert conscience (morality). Germans turning around from Nazism shows that context > innateness.  Nazism was a perfect shit storm of contextual forces that hijacked human morality on a mass scale leading to the worst atrocities.

Moral distortion is psychological-survival based, moral disengagement is empire-domination based, moral inversion is ideological-puritanical based.

Resistance groups belong to the first category (localised geopolitical struggle), Zionism is a mix of the first two (started with geopolitical survival but became dominating), US nuking Japan and doing all they’ve done till today is mainly moral disengagement (morality suspended for the cold calculus of empire), Nazism and ISIS are the last two (global domination to purify the world - apocalyptic politics not just geopolitics) in other words: evil.

Distorted morality is survival logic (liberation), disengaged morality is empire logic (domination), inverted morality is purity logic (evil).

Israel right now seems to be locked into a distorted feedback loop of (past) trauma justifying (present) domination. The context today is that they have power that is distorted by paranoia, rooted from a time they lacked any power to survive. Their moral compass is hijacked by a permanent sense of threat that has been heightened beyond what it really is due to past trauma. And despite being materially developed (powerful) they are morally compromised (in principles).

This is the key tension that causes a lot of confusion (even politically between left and right). To defer to power (conserve to survive - quality and might make right) or to defer to principle (liberate to thrive - equality and fairness are rights). These need to be synthesised.

The lefts blind spot is to deny the reality of survival and power dynamics because it counters their own idea of human goodness. The rights blindspot is to just succumb to raw power dynamics without principles to buffer and refine power itself.

The realities of survival and power threatens the lefts moral framework because they haven’t synthesized the ideals of principles - with the realities of power and survival. They either deny those realities or have an incorrect relationship to it - viewing hierarchy and power as bad ie communism being the extreme political manifestation. The right succumb to power dynamics with little to no moral framework - only justifying power as principle itself, with facism being their extreme political manifestation on the other end of the spectrum.

The bottom line is that the physical nature of power isn’t good by default - the concept of good doesn’t even exist in that plane. It’s just raw and neutral - and only becomes good when nurtured by principles from the non-physical plane of the soul. We are both ruled (down to earth) by power and pulled (up to heaven) by principles.

Civilization is about buffering the reality of power with the conscience of principles - or them finally coming together. 

The most destabilising force is the ignorance of humanity as a whole, which plays out in different ways. Saying this or that country is the most bad, is still very surface level stuff. 

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, Wilhelm44 said:

The most destabilising force is the ignorance of humanity as a whole, which plays out in different ways. Saying this or that country is the most bad, is still very surface level stuff. 

Well..it wouldn't be convenient to blame things on humanity now would it. 😀

[Ajay0]

54 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

I'd say a percentage of Iran this is is true for.  That's why the conditions for WW3 are still present. Same in Russia, same in China, Same in India etc. There is a lot of built-up hate for the west.

Both the two world wars originated in europe in the west which killed over a hundred million people.

The psychological and sociological deficiencies in the western psyche is its own worst enemy.

As long as this is not identified and addressed properly, there is bound to be constant conflicts and bloodshed and eventual disaster of a catastrophic nature.

[Wilhelm44]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Well..it wouldn't be convenient to blame things on humanity now would it. 😀

And even the ignorance of humanity is innocent in a way.  

That don't mean though that we won't need to work through our collective karma, 

just as we need to work through our personal karma.

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

And even the ignorance of humanity is innocent in a way.  

That don't mean though that we won't need to work through our collective karma, 

just as we need to work through our personal karma.

Indeed.  Karma's a bitch. But wise words.  Possibly the wisest said tonight. 

Edited 12 hours ago by Inliytened1

[Wilhelm44]

6 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Indeed.  Karma's a bitch. But wise words.  Possibly the wisest said tonight. 

And karma can be dissolved a lot faster when we honestly own up to our part in things.

That in turn leads to a sincere apology for hurt caused.

If it's not sincere it don't count.

But the most powerful thing is the ability to forgive.

That's why Mandela, with all his shortcomings, was a powerful dude.

He came out of prison, not with thoughts of revenge, but with a forgiving heart.

That's wisdom isn't it, understanding that the other side was also just a slave to it's own survival strategy.

 

[Inliytened1]

4 hours ago, zazen said:

 

 

Self deception.  Hitler was seriously deceived.  But he fooled millions.

4 hours ago, zazen said:

I’m based in UK and from a mixed background. I have critically thought about the situation, and have come to conclusions as to who’s the most de-stabilising force in the world that’s causing death and destruction. It’s not bias to point that out, just clarity - and I don’t have any cognitive dissonance doing so as I don’t identify with any nation, religion or people.

Heres how I make sense of it all:

If we lived at the time of the British Empire or during the Holocaust - would it be okay for people to just say “well that’s power isn’t it, that’s how the world and geopolitics works, it’s not about morals”. The point is we are humans, not robots. On some level we have a sense of right and wrong which stems from the soul. But then how do we explain why people do wrong yet don’t feel it to be wrong?

I think what happens is that peoples moral compasses get hijacked due to external circumstance, ol

Well..its no excuse.  Don't give them a pass on that like you are trying to do with Nazism.

After haviing read the rest of it honestly  Your posts about power are a bit confusing.  What is it you trying to say?  You are hard to understand.

Edited 8 hours ago by Inliytened1

[Jannes]

3 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

It's sad that this is where our society is today.  But that's where we are.  This has nothing to do with religion.  What are you talking about with religion, these leaders wouldn't know God if God slapped them in the face. Kind of funny right?  The stuff taught on this channel is literally more advanced then the leaders of our country are.  I'm not kidding around.   The stuff taught on this channel is literally more advanced then our President.  This shit is fucked up 

Society votes for someone who represents their average level of development so of course a much more developed leader then the average citizen isnt votable. 

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

The most destabilising force is the ignorance of humanity as a whole, which plays out in different ways. Saying this or that country is the most bad, is still very surface level stuff. 

I agree - but this can easily become philosophical bypassing as @Inliytened1 said. It can paralyze us into in-action if we abstract completely away from the surface because we make things too broad to tackle. Taken to the extreme we could just say ''God did it as he started this whole thing'' - but it's not pragmatic or helpful.  

That's one issue with the spiritual non-dual community. The non-dual world may bring peace, but it doesn't bring us protection from the dual world we live in. Non-duality transcends good, bad and evil but doesn't negate them in our dual experience which we have to contend with.

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

After haviing read the rest of it honestly I think you are lost in your own mind.  Your posts about power are confusing.  What is it you trying to say?  You are hard to understand.

I was talking about power because you previously mentioned how war is war - meaning any use of power needed to ensure survival is justified. I was trying to explain that there's a line where survival logic (deterrent based) becomes empire logic (domination based) - and how that extends to politics. The right wing emphasizes power and accumulating more (capitalism) while the left wing emphasizes principles and morality through equality (socialism). We can't just succumb to our use of power without any principles (war is war, might makes right). That's been the core tension in human history: between power (to survive, dominate and accumulate)  and principle (to thrive, dignify and guide power with meaning and morality).

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Self deception.  Hitler was seriously deceived.  But he fooled millions.

Well..its no excuse.  Don't give them a pass on that like you are trying to do with Nazism.

I wasn't giving a pass or justifying - only understanding. The same way Zionists want people to understand why Israel is acting the way it is - which I also outlined.

That's why I said Nazism and ISIS are Evil - they completely invert morality.  Evil is literally Live spelled backwards (inverted). Devil spelled backwards is lived  - the opposite of that which lived. That's why in Satanism everything is about inversion.

Moral distortion (due to survival pressures) or moral suppression-disengagement (due to cold calculations for domination and empire) can still do harm - but moral inversion literally calls that harm good or sacred, it makes domination righteous.

Like you said, Israel has a tyrant like Bibi who is hell bent on domination - he suppresses morality for empire. But Israel also has fanatical and puritanical elements such as Ben Gvir or Smotrich who are much more ideological.

The idea of Zionism started with survival based morality (we need a safe place to live) - it became distorted once they had to confront people living there already. Self-determination is moral clarity, self-determination at the expense of others is moral distortion - which requires the suppression of morality in order to dominate that reality into existence. This also had and still has elements of ideological fanatics who view domination as righteous  - the kahanist and messianic Zionists. That's where morality gets inverted similar to Nazism and ISIS.

Hence why Zionism isn’t a monolith and there are different interpretations and manifestations of it.

Edited 10 hours ago by zazen

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

 

I was talking about power because you previously mentioned how war is war - meaning any use of power needed to ensure survival is justified. I was trying to explain that there's a line where survival logic (deterrent based) becomes empire logic (domination based) - and how that extends to politics.

This is tricky. In WW2 we faced total destruction.  We would have been enslaved and all of our Jews put to death.  There weren't any guidelines at that time because it was do or die.  So..any means necessary. Not all wars will be like that and there are such things as war crimes.  But I think it really depends on the scenario.   In the case of WW2 I think dropping the bomb was justified.  

[Princess Arabia]

 

[PurpleTree]

 

[PurpleTree]

It’s funny how people always wait for the  end of the trilogy of WWs

Three’s a charm after all.

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

 

Imagine these two goons in a prison yard. Haha.

[Inliytened1]

4 hours ago, Jannes said:

Society votes for someone who represents their average level of development so of course a much more developed leader then the average citizen isnt votable. 

Yeah but it's still crazy when you ponder it. 

The stuff taught here is way more advanced than anyone in politics today.

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Inliytened1

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

This is tricky. In WW2 we faced total destruction.  We would have been enslaved and all of our Jews put to death.  There weren't any guidelines at that time because it was do or die.  So..any means necessary. Not all wars will be like that and there are such things as war crimes.  But I think it really depends on the scenario.   In the case of WW2 I think dropping the bomb was justified.  

This is what I mean by survival logic distorting our morality to do things we wouldn’t want to in normal circumstances. But with empire logic we suspend or suppresses our morality out of a cold calculation for dominance and empire.

The problem is you are holding morality as an absolute.  It is flexible and fluid like anything else.  You are going to get tainted in this world whether you like it or not. Not so you better now hold your legos too tightly.  You will need to collapse the construction and build again.  

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Inliytened1