Israel launches attack on Iran

[Wilhelm44]

5 minutes ago, Puer Aeternus said:

Mate

Come on.

You're partly right but also partly drinking the kool aid.

It's true the U.S. is trying to expand its sphere of influence. No favors are without strings!

But they're expanding democracy and justice? 

Yikes. You know how many dictators and authoritarians that they've propped up? Rulers robbing their country blind and doing NOTHING for their people, that they've put cash in the hands of.

Maybe Iran wouldn't have quote on quote intolerable levels of freedom if the U.S. hadn't overthrown their democracy back in the day.

I don't think Iran had a democracy. More like a royal family that was in charge.

[Puer Aeternus]

7 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I don't think Iran had a democracy. More like a royal family that was in charge.

JK you right!

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

on the other hand, Iran has been advocating for decades the disappearance of the state of Israel and hatred of the US as an essential principle. Perhaps this is justified for you, but then there's no need to be surprised when there's war if your rhetoric is violent at its core.

48 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Who is really the one who wants to see the other disappear? It doesn't hurt anybody if Iran has bad things to say about the US (hatred that didn't come out of anywhere but because they support Israel). Stick n stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me. But this war will hurt everybody on both sides

Violent rhetoric without violent action, is still less dangerous than polite rhetoric masking violent actions. The US isn't loud and violent in rhetoric (maybe with Trump now lol) yet the US strangles you in a suit and with a silent smile - in the case of Iran - economic strangulation, coups etc. Their violence is in sophisticated think tank pieces talking about how to best subjugate you: https://www.brookings.edu/articles/which-path-to-persia-options-for-a-new-american-strategy-toward-iran/

I do agree though - Iran's rhetoric is strategically self-defeating even though its morally reactive and has reason to exist due to a hostile history with the West. Rhetoric shouldn't be that low, especially at the level of the State, even if the streets may speak that way. I think it's also baked into their identity - a proud civilization that has withstood many invasions and empires. Even the Shia religion's ethos is based upon the martyr of Imam Hussain who resisted a corrupt empire.

Iran is unique in that it has a long imperial history,a civilization identity that predates Islam, a religious worldview that elevates resistance as a sacred duty, and a political identity of resistance which extended to become the notorious ''axis of resistance'' with whoever resists against Western empire and occupation of Middle Eastern lands.

The one regime that needs changing is the one that insists on everyone else changing. The US may not speak as loudly against any adversaries, but they do silently topple them:

Pictures speak louder than words. Imagine kicking off a nuclear arms race in the region, then bitching that others are racing too.

The audacity of country X, to tell country Y, that they can't have weapon Z (nukes) - whilst that country has weapons A-Z, and has used them ruthlessly, including weapon Z (nukes) twice on a civilian population. 

''How dare you want the same weapons as us! Don't you see how dangerous they are!'' sure we know, because YOU demonstrated that to us in Japan.

''We need these weapons to keep the peace'' sure, but YOU'VE delivered global chaos.

''Others are too barbaric to have these weapons'' sure, but YOU'RE the only ones to have used them twice on a defeated civilian population.

Their foreign policy is ''Do as we say, not as we do.'' Deterrence to them is strategic savagery in a suit and tie - that only they are entitled to.

Edited June 19 by zazen

[Wilhelm44]

17 minutes ago, Puer Aeternus said:

JK you right!

Pretty cool looking throne.

[Puer Aeternus]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Pretty cool looking throne.

We should choose a country and seize power so we can have something like this is our respective cribs.

[Breakingthewall]

57 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

 

57 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

just thought Americans were ready to take care of their own and get out of debt since they elected Trump because he campaigned on no wars but it seems they are as eager as before

It seems that in US the presidents have very limited power. They don't make serious decisions. The people elected Trump because he said no more interventions, but that's not the reality. It seems Trump is realizing that his position is representative, not real power. 

44 minutes ago, Puer Aeternus said:

Yikes. You know how many dictators and authoritarians that they've propped up? Rulers robbing their country blind and doing NOTHING for their people, that they've put cash in the hands of.

Sure, US supports who benefits them.  No one doubts it anymore. I'm just saying that in the specific case of Iran today, perhaps it would be positive that the regime falls.  It's been there too long; the Iranians can't free themselves from that yoke. Same is happening in Korea, they are prisoners from a tyranny. You could criticize US and see that they are vampires, and same time see that living under Kim jong is a nightmare 

 

Edited June 19 by Breakingthewall

[Puer Aeternus]

Just now, Breakingthewall said:

 

Sure, US supports sho benefits them.  No one doubts it anymore. I'm just saying that in the specific case of Iran today, perhaps it would be positive that the regime falls.  It's been there too long; the Iranians can't free themselves from that yoke. Same is happening in Korea, they are prisoners from a tyranny. You could criticize US and see that they are vampires, and same time see that living under Kim jong is a nightmare 

 

Okay that's fair! And perhaps you're right, difficult to say though. It may just end up making things worse in the end, a greater tyrant may come to power. Only time will tell but I do wish the best for them.

[Wilhelm44]

9 minutes ago, Puer Aeternus said:

We should choose a country and seize power so we can have something like this is our respective cribs.

LOL

[Nivsch]

@zazen The Iranian regime and especially the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is an entity that no one would want to bet on when it comes to possessing nuclear weapons. Its simply too dangerous.

Edited June 19 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

@zazen It doesn't help their case they have low rhetoric. But let's be honest. They wanted war with them regardless then used the rhetoric as a way to sell it to the people. Same with nukes, women's rights, citizens wanting regime change, protests and so on. You can't pretend to care about the women of another country while bombing those women. You can't pretend to care about democracy while toppling a government. You can't pretend to care about nukes when Israel has nukes without ever admitting they have them

That's why Iran should have actually just built the nuke. It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission in these situations

[Twentyfirst]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen The Iranian regime and especially the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps are an organization which nuclear weapons in his hands is a very dangerous thing nobody would want to bet on.

Speak for yourself. There are already like ten countries with nukes. I don't care if they get nukes

Don't go there with the religion. There is no proof that nukes will be worse off in the hands of Muslims rather than Christians 

[Raze]

31 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen The Iranian regime and especially the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is an entity that no one would want to bet on when it comes to possessing nuclear weapons. Its simply too dangerous.

But that’s not why they attacked, israel has admitted they don’t believe they can destroy irans nuclear capability and are asking for US intervention.

But now even US officials are saying they are unsure if the US can destroy the facilities 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/trump-caution-on-iran-strike-linked-to-doubts-over-bunker-buster-bomb-officials-say

So it’s more plausible this can result in Iran trying to attain a nuke itself as a later date, as well as other countries in the region as that’s shown to be the only deterrence since the US and Israel didn’t uphold the JCPOA. 

[Jodistrict]

There is no proof that Iran even wants a nuclear bomb.  The reason for the war is that Israel and the neocons want regime change.   That’s right, another regime change boondoggle like Iraq and Afghanistan (the US finally kicked out after 20 years and trillions of dollars).   It was Netanyahoo who lied about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction.  The neocons and Israeli lobby get what they want despite unlimited losses and a long history of failure.  They are exempt from accountability.   It was the Iran quagmire that made Jimmy Carter a one term president.  Getting the US involved in another foolish regime change fantasy is not “America first” by any stretch of the imagination. 

Netanyahu’s 2002 testimony to Congress urging us to invade Iraq based on lies.

https://x.com/i/status/1933236550286127307

Huckster Netanyahu pushing regime change in Iran

https://x.com/i/status/1712273753822974209

[PurpleTree]

 

[Lyubov]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

But that’s not why they attacked, israel has admitted they don’t believe they can destroy irans nuclear capability and are asking for US intervention.

But now even US officials are saying they are unsure if the US can destroy the facilities 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jun/19/trump-caution-on-iran-strike-linked-to-doubts-over-bunker-buster-bomb-officials-say

So it’s more plausible this can result in Iran trying to attain a nuke itself as a later date, as well as other countries in the region as that’s shown to be the only deterrence since the US and Israel didn’t uphold the JCPOA. 

Israel is trying to drag the USA into this. They know how entangled the USA is in this and they know they can time it with Trump’s controversies and short comings back home. They really are putting it all on the table now. Israel needs to be. Israel needs to be cut out of American foreign policy like a tumor. Strange how Tucker Carlson is right on this one. 

[Lyubov]

One thing I’m seeing is Trump’s base is turning on him and if they end up ousting Trump they will replace him with someone else. I used to think Trump was the only thing holding them together but I actually see this right wing populist movement planting seeds to continue even if Trump is gone. 

[zazen]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen The Iranian regime and especially the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is an entity that no one would want to bet on when it comes to possessing nuclear weapons. Its simply too dangerous.

If we're going to judge a countries ability to have nukes by how much danger it poses then USA would be at the top of that list. Should they be stripped of their nukes? Or even Israel after all they've done in the past year or two.

Iran's behavior is geopolitical and deterrent based, not genocidal and domination based. They even have a fatwa against nuclear weapons - but will bend to pursuing it out of necessity like a cat in a corner - which Israel has put them in now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Khamenei's_fatwa_against_nuclear_weapons

The best bet to avoid them having nukes was diplomacy which worked to achieve the JCPOA between 2015 and 2018. That was left by uni-laterally by the US which is why they started enriching uranium to a threshold level today. In the past Netenyahu was lying out of his ass about them getting nukes, but today they are closer than ever because of the behaviour of the US - Israel. The point of them being close to nukes is actually half true today, more than it was in the past.

They are at the threshold level today and remain there so that they can obtain nukes within a shorter time frame - if they felt existentially threatened. And this is all in reaction to the US leaving the nuclear deal they had in place.

Why did Israel strike Iran now while they were in negotiations and had a talk coming up on Sunday in Oman, and killed the key negotiator? Diplomacy works, but its one side that seems to sabotage it time and again. It was also diplomacy that got back the hostages Israel always cries about.

The issue is, Israel can't bomb nuclear related knowledge out of Iranian brains - unless they genocide the country. Even if the facilities are destroyed today, they can just be built up and we'll be in the same position in a few years. If a dog ate my math homework, I still know math.

It's funny how we call governments we don't like regimes. Imagine saying the Irish regime is anti-semitic because it's against the Israeli states actions lol.

Edited June 19 by zazen

[Lyubov]

Israel are dirty motherfuckers that’s for sure, killing the negotiator. 

Edited June 19 by Lyubov

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen The Iranian regime and especially the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is an entity that no one would want to bet on when it comes to possessing nuclear weapons. Its simply too dangerous.

North Korea is as crazy as it gets for a regime and they have not used them, they also say death to America yet do not do shit

The idea that Iran would nuke Israel out of the blue is not proved by anything

Firstly there is no concrete proof they want to build one and even if they have one, it is mostly for them to be assured Israel wont attack them

Keep in mind Israel has nukes and has them illegally yet they tell people not to have nukes

And the genocidal statements from Israeli politicans (tons have been sent here) are not any less radical than Iranian statements

Israel simply wants a regime change so they can make Iran its bitch as they did for the Suni states and they can keep annexing Palestine

Israel said the exact shit for Iraq, why believe them now?

Edited June 19 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

@PurpleTree Dave Smith is pretty awesome.

Debating Konstantin on Piers Morgan which will be interesting. Just uploaded: