Humanity Has Failed

[Raze]

7 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The problem in Palestine is that if an intelligent leader emerges capable of devising clever and useful strategies that open the door to the creation of a Palestinian state, the retarded people will start howling that he's a traitor and that Israel must disappear. He'd better shut up or they'll kill him. Then the retarded people will launch a lot of rockets that won't kill anyone, and Bibi will be happy.

They’ve had multiple leaders or potential leaders like this who were popular, israel killed or arrested them. Even radical leaders like the founder of Hamas offered a ten year ceasefire in exchange for a state. 

[Nivsch]

@Raze Israel has negotiated with their leaders under the governments of Rabin (1993-1995, intense efforts) Barak (1999-2001, intense) Sharon (2003-2005 moderate, less direct) and Olmert (2007-2008, intense) for a total of ~10 years.

Edited Monday at 06:41 PM by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

The problem in Palestine is that if an intelligent leader emerges capable of devising clever and useful strategies that open the door to the creation of a Palestinian state,

Israel will assassinate him.

This is such a serious and stubborn problem in this whole situation. Any peaceful but serious political leader who rises up in Palestine will be targetted by Israel precisely because peace threatens the Zionist project.

The hardcore Zionists prefer radical Palestinian leaders so they have a reason to keep bombing and expanding settlements. A peaceful leader is dangerous to the settlement project.

Edited Monday at 06:37 PM by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura Fair, and on the other hand hamas has proven to increase terror attacks especially in the form of suicide bombing inside Israeli cities, much more during or right after times of negotiations in order to make them fail, especially the key negotiation periods like 1993-4 and 1999-2000.
That by itself indicates a higher probability that those negotiations were serious and honest, since hamas received those signals and responded to them seriously.

Edited Monday at 07:29 PM by Nivsch

[zazen]

9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

As long as Palestinians don't recognize the State of Israel and are obsessed with its disappearance, there will be no peace. That's why there's war now. You can twist things if you want and say that Ben Givir, Bibi, and the settlers. The reality is that if Palestinians have Israel's disappearance as the center of their culture, they are Israel's mortal enemies, and mortal enemies are treated as mortal enemies.

True. I just saw this 6 month old video of various Palestinians being interviewed - basically majority want the maximalist demand of a one state solution. I don’t know if this is because of all the suffering and destruction post Oct 7th or if it was their position before..

But yeah, utterly self defeating and disappointing.

The sense I get is that they think/feel that the longer they have suffered and been occupied (over 7 decades) the more they need to be compensated for it (all the land) otherwise what was all the suffering and struggle for - half of what was theirs?

The issue is a national identity can’t just be undone once it’s crystallised.  Beyond being unjust and promising eternal war - this just isn’t the early 20th century anymore where borders are malleable and colonial powers can redraw a map overnight.

Another logistical hurdle IF a two state solution were even agreed upon is like you said - the vantage point from West Bank overlooking Tel Aviv and Israel. They would have to accept it to be de-militarized or national peacekeeping forces there rather than either Israeli or Palestinian security forces.

Shit show of a situation - seems like a solution simply needs to be decided by more rational larger powers and imposed for a greater peace to prevail so that the region can move forward.

I just look at my profile pic, nod, sigh, then zazen 

Edited Monday at 08:01 PM by zazen

[BlueOak]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel will assassinate him.

This is such a serious and stubborn problem in this whole situation. Any peaceful but serious political leader who rises up in Palestine will be targetted by Israel precisely because peace threatens the Zionist project.

The hardcore Zionists prefer radical Palestinian leaders so they have a reason to keep bombing and expanding settlements. A peaceful leader is dangerous to the settlement project.

The leader would need to be in exile and well guarded. It doesn't guarantee safety but it does make it harder, and it removes him from appearing to his people or being immersed in their struggles or problems. So all in all, a difficult proposition, so I'm not going to surprise anyone here and say:

Get a competent group of five people who can be named and referenced as a group.
Give them access to a genius AI

Let that inform their decisions. Spread these five over the territory, and just keep replacing them if they get taken out.

This would get them there. Far from ideal, but useful given this problem.

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

The leader would need to be in exile and well guarded.

It's hard for exiled leaders to be accepted by their own people.

[Raze]

They had a leader in exile who wanted peace named Marwan Barghouti, but israel keeps him in prison now. Since Oct 7 they’ve been torturing him.

Edited Monday at 09:08 PM by Raze

[Breakingthewall]

It's obvious that Zionism is interested in violent Palestinians, so it has reasons to expel them. Palestinians should realize that using violence is exactly what their enemy wants. If your enemy wants you to do one thing, you should do the opposite. It doesn't take a genius.

But it seems the Palestinians don't want to achieve things, but rather to be victimized martyrs and thus go to heaven, and they are achieving that. It's a situation where everyone gets what they want. That's why Bibi sent money to Hamas. They are partners  sharing objetives, not real enemies

[Raze]

14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's obvious that Zionism is interested in violent Palestinians, so it has reasons to expel them. Palestinians should realize that using violence is exactly what their enemy wants. If your enemy wants you to do one thing, you should do the opposite. It doesn't take a genius.

But it seems the Palestinians don't want to achieve things, but rather to be victimized martyrs and thus go to heaven, and they are achieving that. It's a situation where everyone gets what they want. That's why Bibi sent money to Hamas. They are partners  sharing objetives, not real enemies

 

[Basman]

Israel can't be expected to acknowledge Palestine as legitimate on a politically fundamental level due to Zionist ideology. It has to be policed by a greater power to not ethnically cleanse Palestine which is impossible. It's like a rat stuck in a room with a large cat. 

[Apparition of Jack]

The UN should just go in, guns blazing, and force both sides to settle down until a long-term solution can be found.

[Raze]

26 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

The UN should just go in, guns blazing, and force both sides to settle down until a long-term solution can be found.

The UN can’t take major action unless the resolutions pass but the US vetoes them.

[Leo Gura]

If the UN voted to give Palestinians band-aids, the US would veto.

Edited Tuesday at 03:37 AM by Leo Gura

[Lyubov]

I just wonder when the US public will rise up and total defund Israel. 

[Raze]

29 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

I just wonder when the US public will rise up and total defund Israel. 

Whwn the boomers are no longer a major voting block and Gen Alpha / Gen Z is it’ll be a 80 - 20 issue in 10-15 years the way things are heading. As strong as the lobby is, it can’t withstand that little support.

It’s a race between if that happens before israel can finish off Palestine or totally flames out with a civil war or Samson option.

 

[Leo Gura]

On 6/1/2025 at 4:52 PM, Raze said:

The settlements are just doing what was original done to create israel, but at a slower pace. Settlers themselves argue this. 

It's not quite the same since Israel's base land was designated by international treaty and UN resolution.

Settlements violate international treaties and laws.

But I understand what you meant.

Edited Tuesday at 04:39 AM by Leo Gura

[zazen]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is such a serious and stubborn problem in this whole situation. Any peaceful but serious political leader who rises up in Palestine will be targetted by Israel precisely because peace threatens the Zionist project.

The hardcore Zionists prefer radical Palestinian leaders so they have a reason to keep bombing and expanding settlements. A peaceful leader is dangerous to the settlement project.

This is similar to how the US-UK funded radicals from the 50’s to destroy pan-Arabism and keep their assets (oil) from being nationalised by anti-imperialist leaders.

A short from Chomsky

Then came petro-Islam with Saudi and the creation of a mujahideeen factory against the soviets.

The irony of the gulf and Saudi to now be coming out as forces against radicalism when it’s from their region and pockets full of oil money it was instrumentalized for geopolitical goals:

Israel seems to have adopted and adapted the same tactic for their own geopolitical goal of domination.

What peeves people the most is to have people underwrite radicalism, in order to undermine realistic pragmatism - then have those same people bitch about it when they fight what they helped create, and cause Islamophobia in the process tarnishing 2 billion.

Edited Tuesday at 07:34 AM by zazen

[Breakingthewall]

If the United States were to stop funding Israel, perhaps at some point a coalition of Arab countries could exterminate them. That seems like a fantastic idea to many, who are very clear that the Palestinians are the kind hobbits and Bibi is Sauron in the dark. It's wonderful to see everything like in a Walt Disney movie! Then, when Israel was about to be exterminated after a fun war with some 8 million dead, it would unleash its entire atomic arsenal on Iran, Turkey, Yemen. Then people will say: this isn't necessary, the Jews should leave Israel because the Palestinians were there first. It's all very simple, right?

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, zazen said:

This is similar to how the US-UK funded radicals from the 50’s to destroy pan-Arabism and keep their assets (oil) from being nationalised by anti-imperialist leaders.

A short from Chomsky

So crazy right? Why would Americans and Europeans be bothered by being completely dependent on the whims of a fanatical medieval king? Who wouldn't want an Arab sheikh to be able to turn off the oil tap whenever God tells him to in his sleep and plunge the US into chaos?