Why i am not a vegan ?

[Emerald]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Survival requires much more than just avoiding immediate death. That is a very shallow notion of survival. If survival worked in such a low IQ way we would all be dead a long time ago.

Survival is all the activity that comes with maintaining life. And more.

Fine then. We can quibble around with semantics and definitions.

Let's refer to what I meant in my previous as "avoiding death and starvation" so as not to muddy the waters... as I am specifically referring to "avoiding death and starvation" when I say the word "survival".

What new word would you recommend to refer with specificity to "avoiding death and starvation".

Or should there be no such word in the English language to describe that particular concept.

Edited Thursday at 02:59 AM by Emerald

[Emerald]

@Leo Gura I decided on what the new word should be called that specifically refers to the meaning of "avoiding death and starvation."

The new word is plar.

So... don't misconstrue matters of survival as matters of plar to justify selfish actions.

[Leo Gura]

That problem is addressed simply by being mindful not to bullshit oneself as one goes about survival.

Obviously non-veganism is not about starvation, it's about convenience, taste, habit, and culture.

Old habits die hard (i.e., survive)

Edited Thursday at 03:49 AM by Leo Gura

[aurum]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Lab rat meat for all!

Coming soon.

That's the idea lol but no rats. 

[AION]

5 hours ago, blackchair said:

Come to Balkan, vegetarians don't even exist here and considered mentally ill

They are geniuses 

[Michael569]

@Majed

On 5/12/2025 at 10:03 PM, Majed said:

Why i am not a vegan? I am not a vegan for simplicity sake. I value having a simple life,

You could have ended it here instead of going for the unnecessary rant. 

Sounds like you're trying to escape some tormenting inner struggle by convincing the rest of us to believe you. By are you yourself convinced that what you say is what you really believe? Are you having second thoughts.

Or do you simply enjoy stirring drama on the forum? Nothing wrong with that, we all do to a degree 

.

Edited Thursday at 06:26 AM by Michael569

[Leo Gura]

In Balkans everyone eats rats.

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That problem is addressed simply by being mindful not to bullshit oneself as one goes about survival.

Obviously non-veganism is not about starvation, it's about convenience, taste, habit, and culture.

Old habits die hard (i.e., survive)

That's my point entirely. I don't want people to bullshit themselves about their ACTUAL motives for eating animal products.

And arguing about the semantics of a word (in this specific context) just muddies the waters and gives people more hiding spots to hide from themselves. People in a state of cognitive dissonance will use any tool you give them to hide from themselves... including the flexibility of the definition of a single word.

And my intention is to help people realize that they are in this pattern.

Self-honesty about ways we're out of integrity with our values is a great catalyst for growth and change... including making lifestyle choices that are more sustainable for the planet and more merciful for animals.

Plus, from a personal growth perspective, a lack of integrity with our values will contract our scope of awareness in order to protect ourselves from realizing our lack of integrity.

And in our attachments to our identities of moral goodness and aversion to recognizing the potential for evil in ourselves, our fears of having that identity of moral goodness overturned because of our incongruence between our actions and values will cause us to twist and mangle our entire epistemological framework to avoid "falling from grace" in our own eyes and to remain "the good guy."

This is especially true for people who tend to have strong black and white moralistic judgments and an investment in the notion of punitive justice towards evil-doers. They'll do anything to avoid ending up on their own chopping block.

And consuming animals and animal products as a person who (deep down) values the lives of non-human animals who doesn't want them to suffer, creates a TON of cognitive dissonance.

Facing all of that reality after 27 years of cognitive dissonance was far and away the most difficult thing about going Vegan... way beyond abstaining from any kind of food.

I'm fully convinced that the most effective way to get people to open up to making changes in their lifestyle is to help them be honest with themselves.

[shree]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

In Balkans everyone eats rats.

 

Ocasionaly we also eat cats.

Edited Thursday at 06:55 AM by shree

[Davino]

@Majed Have you ever killed a chicken, pig or cow with your own hands?

Maybe you should. At least one month in your life murder the animal you're gonna eat instead of paying a hitman. Someone has to do the dirty job. If you are fully aware of the dirty job then for me it's fine to be a meat consumer. Research how your meat/fish is raised and killed, maybe you don't sleep well for a few days.

[AION]

10 minutes ago, Davino said:

@Majed Have you ever killed a chicken, pig or cow with your own hands?

Maybe you should. At least one month in your life murder the animal you're gonna eat instead of paying a hitman. Someone has to do the dirty job. If you are fully aware of the dirty job then for me it's fine to be a meat consumer. Research how your meat/fish is raised and killed, maybe you don't sleep well for a few days.

I killed a lot of animals and I still do eat my steak and chicken wing. Only at the beginning it feels cruel. After I while it feels like killing a plant. I don't discriminate between plants and animals. Both are alive. Vegans only care about mammals mostly because they look like themselves which is very primitive. For example if you were a plant you would only care for plants and not for animals. But at the end of the day you have to eat something alive to stay alive and remainder is mental gymnastics.

Edited Thursday at 07:09 AM by AION

[Daniel Balan]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

In Balkans everyone eats rats.

This is the truest meme I've ever seen! This is the ultimate proof that you need to understand that evolution is true!

[Emerald]

20 minutes ago, AION said:

I killed a lot of animals and I still do eat my steak and chicken wing. Only at the beginning it feels cruel. After I while it feels like killing a plant. I don't discriminate between plants and animals. Both are alive. Vegans only care about mammals mostly because they look like themselves which is very primitive. For example if you were a plant you would only care for plants and not for animals. But at the end of the day you have to eat something alive to stay alive and remainder is mental gymnastics.

I suspect that, when a person is in a position where they must kill animals or it becomes normalized, there are ways to numb out to the initial awareness of the cruelty and any empathy towards the animal.

And all of that has to repressed.

It's why it's great to live in the present day where many of us needn't desensitize ourselves to the sufferings of sentient beings.

But I get why that repression of empathy has to happen for those who must frequently kill animals. It would be too much to deal with to be sensitized to that dimension of reality if one must frequently slaughter animals.

Like, I once had a dream that I walked in on a man who was torturing a rabbit by holding its genitals up to a circular table saw... not enough to kill it, but enough to seriously maim and torture it... and to cause severe bleeding. And there was no possibility that the rabbit would recover.

So, I went up to the rabbit, quickly grabbed it away from the man turned it around and quickly fed the entire rabbit swiftly through the table saw head first... until it was split totally in half.

And I was holding the left side of the rabbit in my left hand... and the right side of the rabbit in my right hand.

Then, it hit me that I had killed the rabbit and I realized that something had permanently shifted in me in the dream and that some innocence was lost and that my relationship with life would never be the same again.

And there was this feeling of an emotional "dropping away" that happened within myself.

I suspect there is something similar that happens whenever a person takes an animal's life. The innocence drops away and with it, there is a disconnection and numbness.

[AION]

@EmeraldI feel as much for an animal as I feel for a plant. Just because a mammal looks like me, doesn't mean it should get more empathy than a plant. At the end of the day, nobody on this forum has transcended survival. We all have to eat something alive to stay alive. And I believe we humans are the pinnacle of evolution of earth.

We have an important role on this planet like a CEO who has an important role in an organization. Just imagine an organization without a strict CEO. The CEO has to be kind and empathetic but it also needs to fire. Firing somebody is not cruel. Sometimes it is necessary. In the same way, I can kill an animal and still honor it and respect it.

Vegans are doing a lot of mental gymnastics to cloak their shame for being alive. Yes you are alive. And you being alive, even as a vegan has a detrimental effect on the environment. That is just the cost of living as a sentient being. We can't go back to the olden days and pick berries and stuff.

Edited Thursday at 07:55 AM by AION

[Davino]

2 hours ago, AION said:

I killed a lot of animals and I still do eat my steak and chicken wing. Only at the beginning it feels cruel. After I while it feels like killing a plant. I don't discriminate between plants and animals. Both are alive. Vegans only care about mammals mostly because they look like themselves which is very primitive. For example if you were a plant you would only care for plants and not for animals. But at the end of the day you have to eat something alive to stay alive and remainder is mental gymnastics.

That for me is a reasonable position because you're aware of the full spectrum of your diet, most people are blissfully ignorant.

I'm all for full consciousness, not morality. If you are absolutely conscious of what you're doing I'm fine with that. 

Edited Thursday at 09:39 AM by Davino

[Majed]

@Leo Gura Why is it a rationalization and not a legitimate argument ?

[Kuba Powiertowski]

3 hours ago, AION said:

I feel as much for an animal as I feel for a plant. Just because a mammal looks like me, doesn't mean it should get more empathy than a plant.

So killing a human child is the same for you as chopping a carrot. Same equation. I think that you are at least very immature. You want to impress some girls here how masculine you are, or what?  Internet has this downside that everyone can say anything here, even pretend to be an alfa predator and ceo of earth. Far enough. From my experience such types like you should be tested in real, proper street fight against other human mammal. Some experienced ultra football fanatic for example. May be your weight and size but I bet that could be much smaller.

 

[Thought Art]

4 hours ago, AION said:

For example if you were a plant you would only care for plants and not for animals.

Lol 

[Kuba Powiertowski]

Last week at the University of Warsaw, a third-year law student massacred a porter with an axe - a mother of three children. And almost murdered a security guard who rushed to help her. Because he wanted to feel like a predator. Below are links to the news about it.

I have a question: where are the moderators of this forum when some emotionally immature (not to use offensive words) writes such dangerous nonsense. Because as you can see, such assholes are starting to grow.

https://wiadomosci.onet.pl/warszawa/makabryczny-mord-na-uniwersytecie-warszawskim-byla-mila-i-bardzo-ciepla-osoba/czrmh13

https://www.se.pl/warszawa/wycieklo-wstrzasajace-nagranie-sprawcy-ataku-siekiera-na-uw-makabryczne-szczegoly-aa-U7F2-zEK3-dsZ2.html

[Schizophonia]

20 minutes ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

So killing a human child is the same for you as chopping a carrot. Same equation. I think that you are at least very immature. You want to impress some girls here how masculine you are, or what?  Internet has this downside that everyone can say anything here, even pretend to be an alfa predator and ceo of earth. Far enough. From my experience such types like you should be tested in real, proper street fight against other human mammal. Some experienced ultra football fanatic for example. May be your weight and size but I bet that could be much smaller.

 

No, because you have a genetic predisposition to be empathetic towards other humans, not particularly other animals, unless they more or less look humanoid.
And human beings are part of a social contract for certain reasons, so if you kill another human being, you'll be put in prison.

Edited Thursday at 11:56 AM by Schizophonia