Leo's Blog Discussion Mega-Thread

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Any thinking person can register that as wrong.

That isn't rocket science.

Right. But some people are naturally put off by it and compelled to uproot it. If your system rejects conformity from the outset, mostly all you need is self-awareness to honor it. That, and a lifestyle mostly detached from social environments. No big epistemic project necessary for this orientation. 

Edited 7 hours ago by Joshe

[Leo Gura]

@Joshe You are discounting the insane work that went into reaching my current stage of mind.

I can assure you that no one is going to reach it "naturally".

[UnbornTao]

Too maverick to be nonconformist. 🐠😎

[Joshe]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@Joshe You are discounting the insane work that went into reaching my current stage of mind.

I can assure you that no one is going to reach it "naturally".

I'm not discounting the work you've put in. I'm saying your non-conformity would have emerged regardless, without epistemic mastery. 

[PenguinPablo]

@Joshe Not unless you aim at that ruthlessly.

The amount of baggage we take on from culture and society is deeply ingrained.

To undo that requires serious commitment.

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, Joshe said:

I'm not discounting the work you've put in. I'm saying your non-conformity would have emerged regardless, without epistemic mastery. 

No. Epistemology was crucial in achieving Autonomous mind.

I don't think you are talking about the same level of mind I am talking about.

I can grant you that my interest in epistemology was helped along by my personality type.

Edited 6 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Natasha Tori Maru]

3 minutes ago, PenguinPablo said:

@Joshe Not unless you aim at that ruthlessly.

The amount of baggage we take on from culture and society is deeply ingrained.

To undo that requires serious commitment.

Exactly. I think it is part of the human experience in the social domain to recognise where we were conformist in our youth, especially. There is a natural feeling of regret and revulsion at our previous behaviour in an attempt to fit into the clan prior to knowing who we are. 

It takes energy devoted to awareness to feel a compulsion to really seek out where we are further conforming unconsciously. This needs critical assessment of both behaviour and systems we integrate into.

One needs to recognise WHY conformity is negative. It's systemic effects on society and the individual - and then work to break free.

[AtmanIsBrahman]

@Leo Gura Why is it that studying science in university is the criterium for having rationality? I don’t think you understand that most people doing science in university are just conformist NPCs doing it because everyone else is.

Why isn’t studying philosophy a better criterium for rationality—that’s what you did. I’m aware of all the problems with academic philosophy, but it’s still better than science. Every scientific field is siloed and lacks holism (every academic field really). It has nothing to do with actually understanding reality on a deep level.

If you ask any person studying science about their epistemology, they will reveal themselves to be clowns.

Edited 5 hours ago by AtmanIsBrahman

[CARDOZZO]

Chess is a great way to learn rationality through gamification. 

[Joshe]

50 minutes ago, PenguinPablo said:

@Joshe Not unless you aim at that ruthlessly.

The amount of baggage we take on from culture and society is deeply ingrained.

To undo that requires serious commitment.

There is a small percentage of people for whom this is largely not true. See above or below. 

53 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Exactly. I think it is part of the human experience in the social domain to recognise where we were conformist in our youth, especially. There is a natural feeling of regret and revulsion at our previous behaviour in an attempt to fit into the clan prior to knowing who we are. 

It takes energy devoted to awareness to feel a compulsion to really seek out where we are further conforming unconsciously. This needs critical assessment of both behaviour and systems we integrate into.

One needs to recognise WHY conformity is negative. It's systemic effects on society and the individual - and then work to break free.

It doesn't take conscious effort like that. For some, there is little to no signal to conform in the first place. Rather than spending energy on not conforming, this type more often has to spend energy figuring out how to conform. Non-conformity comes natural in both mind and external social reality. 

I saw conformity everywhere and largely understood it before I even had a word for it. Why would I have such a heightened sensitivity to it? That's what I've been trying to explain.

If you're actually interested, try to imagine being born with this orientation: 

Some people are actually born this way. Rare, yes, but it's more like 1 out of 100 or 200, not 1 in a million. These people don't need a deliberate epistemic project to reach non-conformity. All they need is increased self-awareness to honor their architecture, which is almost inevitable given their makeup.

 

[PenguinPablo]

@Natasha Tori Maru  The average person is way too caught in that game that they don't even realize the value of the alternative. 

It's so damn exhausting, anyway. 

Luckily I'm a bit neuro divergent and even though I longed for friendship, this must have caused issues for me socially such that despite my efforts I didn't readily make friends. From my perspective I'm fairly normal but it's kinda a social proof sort of thing also I believe. It's harder to turn things around when you're starting from zero since people use your current status to gauge your social value irrespective of your qualities as a person. 

Anyway, it forced me to develop and value a more rich introspective and philosophical perspective. 

Still am susceptible to getting people's validation even though I know better. 

But I guess it's not a cold break away from this style of attachment but a gradual process of maturation. 

Nevertheless thanks to people like you and Leo for providing the example.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by PenguinPablo

[aurum]

One might have a natural disposition towards independence or internal processing.

But that alone will not get you to deep autonomy of mind.

[Joshe]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No. Epistemology was crucial in achieving Autonomous mind.

I don't think you are talking about the same level of mind I am talking about.

I'm talking about plain non-conformity, not Autonomous mind. If by non-conformity you meant Autonomous mind, I don't have any input on that.

Your post said non-conformity requires decades of epistemic mastery and is one in a million. Which is what I'm challenging. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Joshe I just don't agree with the model you propose. 

[Joshe]

4 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Joshe I just don't agree with the model you propose. 

I'm not proposing a model, lol. I'm living proof of it. I've spent decades trying to understand this stuff about myself, with ~70% of that effort being independent observation, not borrowed frameworks. But you're right to not just accept it. I wouldn't either.

[CARDOZZO]

@Leo Gura

Do you have a specific clear vision of what you really want out of this work?

Is there a perfect point where you are done?

Is this all about understanding for pure understanding?

I tend to think sometimes you're just running on circles or being lost in the maze.

Deconstruction of the human paradigm is a highly energy consuming task.

Assuming you will die as a human, what is it all about? Where are you going?

[Oppositionless]

9 hours ago, integral said:

If you actually found a good opportunity, that's great, most of the time people don't realize that living in impoverished low quality, low income housing will negatively impact your health long-term, and the quality of the building is super important. I could also live in a garbage can if I wanted to my needs are so low that it really doesn't matter, but in practicality your health will suffer. You're gonna have low energy. You might have health problems, long-term, and these kinds of things happen a lot. It's one of the main hippie traps. 

It's good place, just with a few roomates and not in the city proper . But it's what I can afford .

[nhoktinvt]

"Basically, if they haven't gone to university and studied science, they are pre-rational"
Do you mean actualized.org when you say university Leo,or the one that they charge you hundred of thousands of dollars for success, meanwhile your content is free and higher consciousness

Edited 2 hours ago by nhoktinvt

[Leo Gura]

@Joshe I was talking about even beyond Autonomous stage. Anything less is still conformist.

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, nhoktinvt said:

"Basically, if they haven't gone to university and studied science, they are pre-rational"
Do you mean actualized.org when you say university Leo,or the one that they charge you hundred of thousands of dollars for success, meanwhile your content is free and higher consciousness

I mean university.

Actualized.org is not university. I don't teach science.

Edited 2 hours ago by Leo Gura