Vegan vs. Carnivore Debate on Ethics (Gone wild)

[Leo Gura]

58 minutes ago, bambi said:

Why is being vegan due to wanting to minimize animal suffering not a good thing? Why isnt wanting to reduce suffering for all sentient entities, a good thing. Or at least unneccasary suffering?

At the very least factory farming and animal cruelty should be minimized surely lol

I never said it was a bad thing.

But moralizing to others becomes a trap.

When you reify your judgments and moral outrage that becomes an existential-level mistake which limits the development of your mind.

[bambi]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

I never said it was a bad thing.

But moralizing to others becomes a trap.

When you reify your judgments and moral outrage that becomes an existential-level mistake which limits the development of your mind.

Sure everyone is free to do as they want. 

But in the context of creating a better planet, better society and better future, minimzing unneccasary suffering, especially animal suffering in the context of food, comes pretty high on the list

Consdering more peoples suffering at the consequence of your actions is just a higher perspective imo, its a higher level of morality and higher level of being and living

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, bambi said:

Sure everyone is free to do as they want. 

But in the context of creating a better planet, better society and better future, minimzing unneccasary suffering, especially animal suffering in the context of food, comes pretty high on the list

Consdering more peoples suffering at the consequence of your actions is just a higher perspective imo, its a higher level of morality and higher level of being and living

There are what we could call stages of moral development which addresses what you are saying.

A vegan is at a higher level of moral development than a rapist. But then there are even higher levels which I am trying to guide you towards.

Edited May 24 by Leo Gura

[Schizophonia]

9 hours ago, bambi said:

 Modern humans tend to have higher levels of conciousness and cognitive development then our predecessors. This type of genetic fallacy is endemic in these conversations.

What you are based on to affirm that ?

Will have the higher levels of conciousness the humans with the most efficient and healthy CNS, and who have matured the most.  In other words, people who grew up and evolved in the most natural environment.
Btw, most of the people here are basically provincial and/or have parents from rural origins.

I currently live in the "country" and that's actually where I see the most nuanced people.
It is in big cities, particularly Paris, that you start to come across babies weighing more than 70kg, whether in their way of reasoning or expressing themselves.

The evolution of consciousness is not a straight line from the barbarian to the puritan hippie evangelist vegan, it's just progress towards an increasingly nuanced, contextual paradigm that best meets our long-term needs.

10 hours ago, bambi said:

 

Your basically rationalising all behaviours due to predecessors behaving this way at some time therefore all equatable

Thats like arguing its perfectly fine for an adult to shit his pants put it in his hands and throw it at people, cos babies do it

Beggining the question + agression.

Please come back later when you will have something serious to add.

[Schizophonia]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

A vegan is at a higher level of moral development than a rapist. But then there are even higher levels which I am trying to guide you towards.

You can be completely stupid and stage red, but be vegan through theological bias, hypersensitivity or whatever.

You can be very aware, intelligent, but be completely sociopathic.

[Jannes]

I have come to this conclusion so far. You can be vegan for many reasons. Loving animals can be a legit reason to be a vegan but very few or maybe even no vegan is vegan completely because of this, most are because of moral reasons. 

Moral development can only prosper in healthy and loving circumstances so it's very elitist and even selfish when vegans moralize it to other people and therefore has a counterproductive effect. The more morally developed you are the more your love/care expands in the universe. 

[Schizophonia]

11 minutes ago, Jannes said:

I have come to this conclusion so far. You can be vegan for many reasons. Loving animals can be a legit reason to be a vegan but very few or maybe even no vegan is vegan completely because of this, most are because of moral reasons.

 

Me, i like grasshoppers

12 minutes ago, Jannes said:

 

Moral development can only prosper in healthy and loving circumstances so it's very elitist and even selfish when vegans moralize it to other people and therefore has a counterproductive effect. The more morally developed you are the more your love/care expands in the universe. 

All of that is a circular reasoning perched in your imagination, it doesn't have a actual virtual meaning. 

[UnbornTao]

 

Edited May 25 by UnbornTao

[Carl-Richard]

Debating veganism is generally like shooting fish in a barrel (see what I did there? ) from the perspective of the vegan. But like you're saying, it's generally best when the person holding the gun is not batshit insane.

Edited May 24 by Carl-Richard

[bambi]

On 24/05/2024 at 10:10 AM, Schizophonia said:

What you are based on to affirm that ?

Will have the higher levels of conciousness the humans with the most efficient and healthy CNS, and who have matured the most.  In other words, people who grew up and evolved in the most natural environment.
Btw, most of the people here are basically provincial and/or have parents from rural origins.

I currently live in the "country" and that's actually where I see the most nuanced people.
It is in big cities, particularly Paris, that you start to come across babies weighing more than 70kg, whether in their way of reasoning or expressing themselves.

The evolution of consciousness is not a straight line from the barbarian to the puritan hippie evangelist vegan, it's just progress towards an increasingly nuanced, contextual paradigm that best meets our long-term needs.

Beggining the question + agression.

Please come back later when you will have something serious to add.

I was using David Hawkins work on calibrated levels of conciousness mainly, and some documanteries on tribes I had seen. But I appreciate your point, tribal soceities seem to have lower rates of depression and anxiety, so its far from clear.

Sorry wasn't intending to be aggressive.

I think there are many sub arguments not just veganism vs non-vegan seems like a type of red herring, the immediate and main issue for me is industrial farming vs ethical sustainable wild farming. 

I think pretty much most reasonable humans vegan or not, can agree that torturing animals on an industrial scale is not good. If you raise in good conditions your own live stock and kill them for food, this is another question, and its less clear on the morality of this, or if its even in the boundaries of morality due to it being within the flow of nature/life. Obviously there are huge systemic and socio-economics issue to correct and a huge road ahead if we globally accepted animal cruelty and industrial farming is not okay

Its the perverse treatment of animals and humans that really begs the moral question imo

 

[Danioover9000]

@Davino

On 2024-05-23 at 1:03 PM, Davino said:

Mmm interesting. I've been vegeterian for two years. Why? My body asked me so and I followed it. This changed a lot my psyche and some parts of my worldview regarding animals and my connection with nature and inner peace. About a month ago, my body started asking me meat again. I was hesitant but tried a a bit there and a little bit here again; despite mind resistance. One sunday I had the most epic 5meo breakthrough infinity of my life, in the come down I saw how all limitations of conduct are but self limitations imposed moment to moment by me. So I ate a delicious meat lasagna for lunch that day and I've been eating meat for a month now and I'm feeling absolutely fantastic.

My body is intelligent and this type of diet now aligns with my inner calling. Funny enough, I never thought about morality when going vegetarian but a sense of deep animal compassion came with it after the 1 year mark. Now that my food involves animal slaughtering it caused a bit of inner disonance. But idk in the end it's more important to feel healthy in my body and following this inner calling than it is to care for others and this is an uncomfortable truth. Because I don't know about others but I am myself all day long therefore my priorities are straight.

The same way in the future my body may tell me to go vegan, go cannibal , or whatever crazy diet; I'll probably align my life towards this inner life impulse that guides me everymoment.

   I agree, so when my body and tongue tells me 'meat is GOOD and JUICY!' I will still follow what tastes really good and juicy, the fat and the meat tasty. And when my body became depressed when I ate celery I knew that meat is the way and the life of living!