28 year old girl scheduled to die via AS due to depression

[fopylo]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Sometimes I think maybe there is even a reverse correlation between "too good" conditions and too easily fulfilled basic needs, to mental health. Because ironically the modern living standards has taken us away from caring to ourselves and be connected to nature that are very important, and the absense of both in modern life is devastating to mental health. Also the solitude, too strong emphasize on core familiy which is potentially more de-stabilizing than the environment of a tribe which was, I think, more ideal to mental balance.

@Nivsch

Those examples that you gave are 'important' not because of some innate values of nature and tribalism, but because our psychology and body are shaped for this kind of environment for over a million years of human evolution. Being in nature and spending time with people just clicks better.

Certainly modern living isn't that great for living in a psychologically good environment, but after all it's us humans who created this modern environment lol.

Why? Well because of all the stories that were created by humans that brought many people together and try answering the deep questions of life and many beliefs and cultures came and went, leaving remnants behind. And now you have this fucked up society that believes capitalism/socialism is the cure ideology for this world that will bring prosperity. The human condition comes with ups and downs, and randomly got to this point

Edited April 23 by fopylo

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Sometimes I think maybe there is even a reverse correlation between "too good" conditions and too easily fulfilled basic needs, to mental health. Because ironically the modern living standards has taken us away from caring to ourselves and be connected to nature that are very important, and the absense of both in modern life is devastating to mental health. Also the solitude, too strong emphasize on core familiy which is potentially more de-stabilizing than the environment of a tribe which was, I think, more ideal to mental balance.

Yes. That's why I advocated to starve her for a week. 

She is lost in endless psychological battles which will eventually start affecting her body also. She needs to bring her attention back to the body.

[josemar]

Give her IV 5meo instead of the lethal injection, she'd die... Just not in the way she thinks 🤔 

[CosmicExplorer]

99% of suicides are committed because of some kind of pain, emotional or physical. Modern medicine has almost nothing to offer in terms of giving people long-term net pain relief. Not letting people end their pain which can be like torture for some, is ultimately selfish.

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, OBEler said:

We have more time to use our inner monologue.

Back then there was no time for this

I don't know if there was no time, but less.

But back then there were no other kinds of distractions we do have today, so I don't think the answer is thrivial.

Do you refer here to the "inner monologue" as helpful or harming?

But anyway the idea is not to really go back totally to these days but to re-incorporate foundations from the past we have lost.

Edited April 23 by Nivsch

[Bobby_2021]

12 minutes ago, josemar said:

Give her IV 5meo instead of the lethal injection, she'd die... Just not in the way she thinks 🤔 

😂😂

[BlueOak]

3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Sometimes I think maybe there is even a reverse correlation between "too good" conditions and too easily fulfilled basic needs, to mental health. Because ironically the modern living standards has taken us away from caring to ourselves and be connected to nature that are very important, and the absense of both in modern life is devastating to mental health. Also the solitude, too strong emphasize on core familiy which is potentially more de-stabilizing than the environment of a tribe which was, I think, more ideal to mental balance.

Yes, well put. An alternate way to look at it:

Too good would be, spending time in nature, caring for it, and appreciating it. Ditto your food, home, community, etc. What we have now is unbalanced.

Our values are not in alignment with sustainability, so we don't sustain and take care of ourselves. We burn out, we have depression, reoccurring relationship problems, weight problems, dietary problems, musculoskeletal problems, and mental or physical illnesses. I see all this in the macro too, families not having kids, societies breaking apart, social unrest, and unnecessary national or personal debt to name a few.

[Basman]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Therapists fail to help many suicidal people. This is nothing new.

That people kill themselves can't be helped but I don't think it should be a mental health professionals place to make the call that there is no hope to a mentally ill person.

[StarStruck]

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

😂😂

You are laughing but you never too 5 MeO.  Jokes on you. 😅

[ZenAlex]

In my opinion, we can bring a quicker end to this debate by asking ourselves "who's decision should it be?", the person themselves or the people around them?

Who gets to decide when a person dies?

In a controlled environment, I think you should have the right to do it. 

I am for Assisted suicide, you're all free to be upset, disappointed at a persons choice but it's theirs to make not yours.

[ZenAlex]

On 21/04/2024 at 9:48 AM, Bobby_2021 said:

Euthanasia for the sake of depression is crapshit. What a waste of life.

Depression and BPD. At the end of the day we don't know how it feels for her.

 

Depression comes in varying severities, and along side BPD which is one of the worst disorders to have. She may simply not be able to enjoy her life, doctors cannot do anything more.

 

[Ulax]

People just don't get how truly fucked up severe mental illness is.

I don't necessarily endorse assisted suicide but I can understand the motivation.

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Yes, well put. An alternate way to look at it:

Too good would be, spending time in nature, caring for it, and appreciating it. Ditto your food, home, community, etc. What we have now is unbalanced.

Our values are not in alignment with sustainability, so we don't sustain and take care of ourselves. We burn out, we have depression, reoccurring relationship problems, weight problems, dietary problems, musculoskeletal problems, and mental or physical illnesses. I see all this in the macro too, families not having kids, societies breaking apart, social unrest, and unnecessary national or personal debt to name a few.

Exactly

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Basman said:

That people kill themselves can't be helped but I don't think it should be a mental health professionals place to make the call that there is no hope to a mentally ill person.

I agree her therapist is jumping to conclusions with that quote.

[Nivsch]

8 hours ago, fopylo said:

after all it's us humans who created this modern environment lol.

Because there were challenges for example viral diseases forced us to be initiative.

But then we took that modern toy like a five year old boy's state humanity is found in today, used it irresponsibly naively think we can bypass nature.

I think that crisis is necessary to appreciate from new and even stronger than ever the wisdom within you and/or in nature, and the ability to be special and fight for what is right, what acts as a powerful source of meaning.

Edited April 23 by Nivsch

[Mormegil]

21 hours ago, Nivsch said:

 Quite agree because when suicide get legitimacy, the desperate mind might get locked on that idea and stop trying to challenge itself and to look for solutions out of his depression. Therefore to tell someone that even in theory suicide can be sometimes a valid option is highly irresponsible.

Quite the opposite. If a suicidal and desperate mind hears that it is morally okay to do it, there can be a gigantic feeling of relief. It's like a ton of tense feelings of guilt and shame and confusion suddenly dissolve inside you. And THAT is exactly the moment, when the mind suddenly can start open up to the better things in life. Because now it knows, there is always a possible way out, if things get too bad. But the mind doesn't get locked on that idea.

What makes mental illnesses and suicidal thoughts even worse, is that the person is stuck with this horrible thoughts and feelings and the desire to just end their suffering but at the same time, everyone tells them that it would be wrong or selfish and a waste or whatever, and that creates a conflict inside those already ill and suffering people, of which it's almost impossible to get out.

Honestly I can tell some people here have never experienced a period of mental illness themselves or never had contact to a someone with those issues, let alone something as severe as like borderline, which is a frigging personality disorder! It's not just going away after a while, people usually have to live with it for the rest of their lives and it turns their lives into hell. Imagine to live in hell for decades where you get emotionally tortured and see no end of suffering. This is the place of which a person like this girl is coming from.

I'm just a bit baffled here by some of the comments to be honest, which seem really not empathic and not understanding the perspective of someone like this at all. You can live in the best country, and in the wealthiest family in the world, it will all completely be worthless to you if you have a condition like this.

And you can't just think your way out with a positive attitude or by just looking at all the good things in life. It's honestly naive to assume that.

 

Edited April 23 by Mormegil

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Mormegil said:

Quite the opposite. If a suicidal and desperate mind hears that it is morally okay to do it, there can be a gigantic feeling of relief. It's like a ton of tense feelings of guilt and shame and confusion suddenly dissolve inside you. And THAT is exactly the moment, when the mind suddenly can start open up to the better things in life. Because now it knows, there is always a possible way out, if things get too bad. But the mind doesn't get locked on that idea.

Maybe for some people it will work that way, but for many other people the opposite I fear.

[sholomar]

There has to be something in our genetic makeup that craves adventure and excitement especially women's genetic makeup, because it makes no sense to have everything provided for you, have a loving husband and family, and yet still want to die.  It seems like our genetics are wired to want what we don't have, seek novelty, variety, adventure, and have "grass is always greener" syndrome along with a sense of purpose. If we do the same thing long enough or don't feel like we are "contributing to the tribe" we get depressed.  I know many here don't subscribe to genetic reasonings behind behavior but to me genetics are everything, and if we could learn to distill every piece of DNA down to it's constituent function, eventually we could reverse engineer every behavior pattern and drive our species have and the reason behind it from an evolutionary perspective, and then do genetic engineering to make the perfect human being, free from our evolutionary shackles.

Our brains are habit forming machines too and if a person gets stuck in the same pattern of thinking unable to escape thought thought/habit and emotion/reaction loops...

I do think it's a bit silly to obsess over other people wanting to take their own lives. If you're not willing to fix them, let them take their lives.  There's 8 billion people on this planet... the planet won't miss one.

As others  have mentioned, there is a component where people are "too comfortable" in life and you present them a life wrapped in bubble wrap with no challenge... or they are like my sister and spend their entire lives on government disability which enables them to never leave it, to never push themselves....  one of the areas I believe leftists go wrong, thinking that all "discomfort" should be eliminated from life, and that you can save everyone... that simply goes against  the laws of nature.  Trying to coddle and spoil people makes them hypersensitive and more prone to psychological conditions in some cases. Sometimes you just need to be thrown to the wolves and learn how to fend for yourself... in the long run that makes for a healthier species.

Edited April 23 by sholomar

[Mormegil]

7 minutes ago, sholomar said:

There has to be something in our genetic makeup that craves adventure and excitement especially women's genetic makeup, because it makes no sense to have everything provided for you, have a loving husband and family, and yet still want to die.  It seems like our genetics are wired to want what we don't have, seek novelty, variety, and have "grass is always greener" syndrome. If we do the same thing long enough or don't feel like we are "contributing to the tribe" we get depressed.  I know many here don't subscribe to genetic reasonings behind behavior but to me genetics are everything, and if we could learn to distill every piece of DNA down to it's constituent function, eventually we could reverse engineer every behavior pattern and drive our species have and the reason behind it from an evolutionary perspective.

Genetics are absolutely a major factor, that's why people who suffer from it seem so irrational to healthy people. They don't understand that those people cannot just simply think positively or think your way out of it. It's not a bad mood, it's an illness based on physiological and bio-chemical reactions in their body.

Most - if not all - mental illnesses have a genetic factor as well as a factor based on environment / experience. Genetics gives you the foundation for whatever mental condition and then some traumatic experiences causes this condition to trigger.

Edited April 23 by Mormegil

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Mormegil said:

Honestly I can tell some people here have never experienced a period of mental illness themselves or never had contact to a someone with those issues,

I had years of high anxiety and ocd come in waves, but today in a much better and I would say a totally different place after insights I gained two years ago with a breakthrough in my understanding that has changed my life and the improvement holds quite steadily.

The term "illness" for mental conditions is hugely problematic to my opinion for so many reasons I won't burden this message right now with but maybe later in the conversation. No doubt though the suffering is enormous anyway.

Edited April 23 by Nivsch