Search the Community

I think my problem and most likely something that others have encountered as well is that if you don't have a large variety of sources on this topic then it just becomes that much easier to fall into the trap of mistaking the map for the territory. At the time that I was building up my belief system about nonduality, subconsciously that is like I wasn't purposely trying to create beliefs about mysticism, but at that time I had maybe 3 other sources other than leo (Rupert Spira, Peter Ralston, and Alan Watts) and I've realized that this is a very small sample group and to avoid the trap of belief systems it helps to have at least 15 sources where you dive deep into all the different traditions and what all the enlightened masters of history have to say. Maybe diving into Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, and other thoughts about mysticism from different religions rather than focusing on one religion or one person online like leo. It's all in the balance my friend. Agree, disagree, thoughts?

I agree. His content can help you get to a certain point, but there comes a time when you may realize that it is no longer adding the value that it once did and turns into your own personal belief system. And that's the crazy thing, the ego is so tricky because even though I've heard leo say about 100 times that the map is not the territory and that you shouldn't be creating beliefs about nonduality, for some reason this didn't resonate deep down in my mind and in retrospect I realized how much of a belief system I had and still have built up around nonduality. I think that the overall message is that consciousness work is very deeeeeeep, and if you want to go deep and have mystical experiences than there are so many ego traps, paradoxes and tricky mind manipulations that you have to become conscious of with brutal self honesty. Your thoughts?

@TeamBills I would almost characterize it as anti religious. A secular psychologist, Helen Schucman, starts spontaneously channeling Jesus Christ in the late 1960's utilizing modern terms such as ego, projection, dissociation,,,, With great reservations and the insistent encouragement from colleague Bill Thetford, they start organizing these notes and after 4 or 5 years, begin 'letting the cat out of the bag.' In this work, references are made to things in the Bible that are clarified or corrected. The idea of a judgmental God who sacrificed and scapegoated "his son" is stated as a perversion of truth. Also the idea of original sin and guilt is fallacy. The problem is separate sense of self (ego) with its repressed guilt and the resultant projections of this out onto others in the world. creede nailed it with his assessment of forgiveness. Although in ultimate reality, nondual reality, no such thing exists. But in duality, this act of an inner gesture is effective in opening one up to nonduality or the experience of Being as opposed to reality based on egoic internalized images.

Brian Josephson is a Nobel prize winning physicist (the Josephson effect is cool stuff: current flowing across a gap in superconductors, without any votage applied.) Turnes out, in the 70's he got into (the cult of?) transcendental meditation and from the viewpoint of mainstream science "went crazy". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Josephson Currently, he's running something called Mind-matter unification project http://www.tcm.phy.cam.ac.uk/~bdj10/ I haven't explored the content of the site yet (I will). It seems there has been other serious research by quantum physicists into the nature of paranormal phenomena. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_Fysiks_Group It doesn't seem though that any "paranormal" phenomena were confirmed, except for the (quite esotheric, but known ;)) quantum entanglement effects in the microscopic world, which lead to the current studies of quantum computing stuff. I would love to learn about the successes and failures of serious physicists investigating non-duality and/or paranormal phenomena. It seems to have been a thing for at least half a century now, with a peak in the 70's leading... nowhere? somewhere? Are there any comprehensive reviews of the field, or reviews of its history from people who understand both science and nonduality?

Interesting topic. Yes, his content can be harmful especially to unstable individuals. For example, a suicidal person might do something really bad if he hears Leo say that “death is amazing” (or something of that sort). I understand where Leo is coming from, but people can misinterpret things very easily. Some things he say I think it’s just nonsense, but if I didn’t filter what he says, I could accept those things blindly. And I agree with you that people are building a whole belief system around nonduality. It’s as if nondualism is becoming a religion...

Welcome to the forum! I use it for goals of all kinds, book notes, inspiring quotes, schedules (kind of like a checklist for my eating habits, meditation, yoga, journaling, etc.), collecting and organizing important webpages and online articles, inspiring people, burning questions and my thoughts and info about them, life purpose course, women (organizing my notes on relationships, dating advice, etc.), and just quick notes on anything at all throughout the day (many of these can be inspiration for new sections). I also have sections on ego (probably my biggest and most important section) and nonduality. Those are more advanced though, the rest are highly practical and you could start tomorrow.

I purposely stopped watching Leo's videos for a few months because I realized that Leo's content was having a bad influence on me. Not in the sense that what he's talking about is dangerous, but you have to admit Leo is a very persuasive guy, and his content was making me fall custom to developing new belief systems around Nonduality and my worldview was conceptually switching to nonduality even though that's not possible, but my worldview was shifting to a false, conceptual view of nonduality. People are probably going to reply with how developing ideologies and new belief systems is the wrong way to go about it, and I know. But do you guys think that many people that comment on Leo's videos and most talk in this forum are extremely influenced by leo's views and don't yet have a solid spiritual understanding so they bicker back in forth over their enlightenment ideologies, or what they think about spiral dynamics, etc. etc. etc. I doubt than nearly any spiral dynamics posts were being written before leo made those videos on them. Not trying to like confront people, just curious to think about when viewing the path and how much work we have to put in on our own instead of creating beliefs and what can happen when we don't have spiritual experience but follow our ego's agenda down the spiritual path. (I personally haven't had any major spiritual experiences, just a few short glimpses.)

I smoked 5meo dmt 8 weeks ago and this time it was NNDMT. In the pasted I have smoked NNDMT and it always brings me into a visual wonderland giving me the experience of another world. However this time it was NOT the same, it was exactly what I had experienced on 5meo BUT stronger. Others who I was with all had the typical nndmt experience except for me. What happened next still makes no sense.. I was expecting nn-dmt world but what I got was absolute infinity. I had a pure 5meo-dmt experience Become complete conscious that nothing is real at all Completed mind fucked Life is a dream Realized that everything that I ever thought is real - including myself, my friends, family.. Everything was never real Thought I was going crazy and then I had the thought of killing myself, next thing I realized was that would do nothing I will be back again again again again.. It is all infinite Terrifying, not all spiritual experiences are enjoyable. ALL ONE, nonduality is not always blissful. The ramifications are massive, literally, that means you do not exist at all It felt like every experience I have EVER had and EVERY person I have ever met has been a test for me to experience waking up. I relived my whole life in a split second and then realized it never happened As I began to have thoughts of ego dissolutions and death I then realized that too is all an illusion As the experience was ending I was completed mind fucked and then It hit my minds are an illusion too. That pushed me right back into the experience After that experience, I then smoked again a few hours later. This time I felt like I tapped into some form of universal intelligence (consciousness?). I became fully aware of how the universe is intelligent and conscious. It can not be reduced down into simple rules and formulas. What's been seen can not be unseen now. I can't shake this experience. I have a hard to explaining this experience to anyone, not only because words don't do it justice but also because I start to cry. I have had this peak experience and now what guys? @Leo Gura Have a lot of work to integrate all of this.. Not even sure where to begin, but it has to be done

@ajasatya Thank you so much for the reply and the video. I completely agree with the video and what you are saying. I plan to totally revamp the way i live once i get the ibogaine and I hope to get to the root causes through therapy and psychs. I have a very dysfunctional romantic relationship right now and I don't feel right with my friends either. Im basically not very comfortable or happy with most aspects of my life but I do love who I am and i recognize my potential which i think is important for motivating me to change. I relate to my family much better than i used to but there is still some dysfunction with my mom. Every time she makes this noise with her throat or nose i get extremely angry and have to leave the situation. Im just in a hole of dysfunction right now and that's what caused the relapse, I couldn't take the emotional pain anymore but just like the video said, it began with pain, and its ending in pain. I also have an addiction to masturbation, weed, and basically any drug i can regularly do without destroying my life. I have a lot of trust issues as well because high school was extremely negative for me and i felt that i was hurt by some people very close to me. I felt betrayed by my friends a few times and when my mom kicked me out i felt betrayed again. My girlfriend broke up with me in the middle of my parents divorce and hook up with a kid right after which made me feel betrayed again. So i jumped back into a relationship right away to escape the pain and that is the person im still with today. We have dated almost 5 years and we cannot have sex because it hurts her to do so (about a year of little to no intimacy). She gets vaginal pain when we attempt to have sex and her therapist thinks its because of unresolved past trauma. We have been talking through this recently which has helped a lot for both of us. I absolutely traumatized her with my addiction habits and lies so i understand completely, although it has caused me to develop an extreme masturbation addiction (up to 5 times a day) which i also feel a lot of shame for because i feel like im doing something wrong and that i shouldn't want to have sex with every girl i see. Im quite skiddish because of being teased and hit by friends and i also got robbed and beaten so i have an extreme fear of being alone with black men i don't know on like a street at night although i have no issue with any race and i love everyone i meet. I still maintain a very low position in my friend group hierarchy and feel like that has always been that way, being the brunt of jokes and whatnot. hahaha sorry trying to think of all my "wounds" right now. I also have a fear of too much attention because of how much negative attention i got in high school for being a very visibly troubled kid. What i am thankful for from all this is my compassion and empathy for others is absurd, like i really really feel for others and always want to help anyone i can. I always see the best in people and will be there for them no matter what, even random homeless people ahaha. so yeah i guess thats most of my wounds and dysfunctions. I see that my addiction stems from these deeper emotional problems and im hoping ibogaine and therapy can help me uncover the issues and change literally my entire life. Thankfully my friends are into nonduality and so that has always been a good thing in my life and has influenced me in more ways than i know. I really appreciate your comments so thank you, your story is inspiring.

Well, the fact that Tolle has pulled many people into interest in nonduality is definitely a plus for him. Glad you enjoyed the critique

@ajasatya Nope but just briefly researched it, it seems interesting. The Middle Path seems like a long term strategy, I want to focus in the short term for efficient results. I only have conceptual understanding; That is Truth of no self, oneness, nonduality and realization of "your" infinite nature

You're still not getting it: duality IS unity! The distinction between duality and nonduality is a duality you imagined! The nature of duality is nonduality. The nature of nonduality is duality. When you make a distinction between duality and nonduality, you live a dualistic life. When you make no distinction between duality and nonduality, you live a nondual life. And if you make a distinction between these two lives, you live the dualistic life.

Based in SD theory, Coral would include all previous stages. I watched part of the video and can see red and orange. Yet not much Green to Turquoise. Yet higher stages can have varous expressions. For example, Turquoise isn’t just feel good nonduality teachers. I may be missing something in the video.

Read your blog critique on Eckhart Tolle's Power of Now book/teachings. You definitely made some very good points! Id like to express my thoughts on it, being a dude who probably would have never even discovered spirituality/nonduality (or how it related to my on life) for a much longer time without reading his book (on accident). Some of your examples seem to pull his words out of context a bit. Tolle dumbs down much of the teachings in attempt at catering to his audience (as you know). People reading his book for the first time who are not seekers (like me) are really able to connect and understand the points he makes and directly relate it to our own life. I agree on most of your criticism about negative emotions, however, again, some quotes simply taken out of context. Obviously surrender does not function the same for everybody. "through examination and articulation of your negative emotions -- so that they can both be accommodated in a new, higher solution" - these are your words, and often with a deeper understanding of our situation, the answer is there quite clearly without any negative emotions present. The triggered negative emotions disrupts clear understanding of our desired path in a given situation. But i agree to a degree, suppression of negative emotions is simply not a solution (learned this the hard way). Does the nondual awareness/consciousness not give the mind a deeper appreciation for everything we perceive? As a westerner i would vouch for most to see this world in a logical, compassionate materialistic sense where most of our beliefs/world views cannot be just thrown out the window. Much enjoyed your critique! I struggled to understand myself for over a year obsessed with Tolle's teachings and it only got me so far. I have your book and i will write a review once i get a chance to finish it

What do you think about NDEs and OOBEs and what are their similarities to enlightenment and DMT experiences?

That is a great description. That is a good look at a facet and there is more of that “essence” of being. There are other flavors as well. Early in my path the seeking was to find the answer and to figure it out. I read a lot, meditation groups, lots of chats and debates. Then I had 4 or 5 nondual experiences and the energetic seeking completely shifted. The desire and yearning was to BE that nonduality again. It sounds like you are there and it’s really advanced with a form energy that can fuel more development. Ime, I got into a trap of chasing an experience and trying to recreate the experience. One thing I learned is that there are many variations of nondual experiences. If you have an expectation it’s only certain way, you will limit your expansion possibilities. As well, I wanted to re-enter that state and stay there. I saw it as “all or nothing” and I missed lots of subtle nondual experiencies. Rather than expect and crave the “big shebang”, be observant for small glimpses and subtle nondual “teasers”. For me, moments of surprise gratitude and appreciation can open a portal to nonduality. Where I live, we had a major snowstorm today. I worked late. It was cold, dark and snowing as I walked to my car. I was dreading having to brush and scrap the snow/ice off my car. As I walked to the parking lot, lots of thoughts about work were racing through my head. Then, whammo!!! Someone cleared off all the snow and ice off my car. I was so touched and grateful someone did that. It was love. It snapped me back into the Now. I stood there in the blizzard laughing for no reason. For a moment I saw the divine in all that was around me. Being the beauty that surrounded me. Then, it fluttered away like a butterfly to it’s next flower ? One can only surrender ego to a point. Then, grace may reveal something.

Nonduality is knowledge that occurs when you die. You can read about it all you want, but you'll never obtain this knowledge through concepts. Don't get me wrong, a certain amount of theory is extremely helpful. Enlightenment is being. Free from ego, free from psychological time, etc. Also your death. There are many levels to awakening and nondual understanding, so don't think of these as binary on/off light switches. Nonduality and enlightenment are two aspects (and not the only 2) of the same coin of consciousness. Your question about how many times is completely relative and dependent on factors way outside one's control. I'd posit that there's no fundamental difference between nonduality and enlightenment; they only point to your relative experience of the Absolute, which itself is not absolute... you are usually only conscious of one or two aspects of the absolute at a time, in varying levels or intensities. So just because you had a nondual, mystical experience but it wasn't full-blown enlightenment doesn't mean you were removed from enlightenment, or that these are somehow separate. All it means is that you weren't ready to become conscious of that aspect yet.

@tedens deeper nonduality than last time, this my usual line when people aso this question cuz there isnt any other way to describe it tbh lol. Also relaxed and more clean energy.

@winterknight sorry i dont believe that, enlightenment is a real thing, it shouldnt be something that one just convinces himself just bevause he awoke to "nonduality", ive been through the same stage u are now, u arent done in my opinion, and life will show u that whwlen it triggers your attachments and fears. Cux whats the point of all this enlightenment talk when your experience isnt truly liberated? Dont deny your karmic body, there is a process going on. Its what seperates the yogis from the buddhas in my opinion. And why the quotatiob marks on "emotional system" tryna show me how much things dont exist in ur experience? Lol Advaita nondualists including ramana had alot of insights but are also terribly escapist and incogruent to their experiences, it basically a game of just saying i dont exist so that u dont look at ur karmic bodies issues. Zen masters are nuanced enough to realize that this process going on. This process doesnt go againat nonduality at all really, but it does go against your enlightened identity however, tell me if im wrong, no?

@OneWithAll The no good or bad thoughts is an important insight, yet not what I am pointing to. Once nonduality is revealed in direct experience, the mind will try to contextualize it. The mind will try to make sense of it. The mind will start to believe that these new concepts are true. It seems that nonduality has been revealed to you and your mind has entered a deeper level. What I have found is that when my base consciousness level deepens to a new level, it is unstable at first. Then my mind wants to create grounding so it contextualizes the deeper direct experience. It tries to make sense of it. The problem with this, in terms of maturation and embodiment, is that the mind tries to take ownership and believes the concepts are true. It confuses the map for the territory. After a while, this deeper framework may get challenged and the mind has resistance. It says "No, nonduality is really like this. No, thoughts really mean this". At each deeper level, the attachments/identification gets more subtle, nuanced and sneaky. It's easy to see the attachments one had when they were at a more surface level. It is much more difficult to see attachments at one's current level. The mind needs to go through the whole rigamaroll again: become humble, open and willing.

@OneWithAll Be aware that the mind tends to contextualize nonduality.

@Epsilon_The_Imperial people take different practices to uncontract and stabilize nonduality more, but ultimately the practices would be dropped aswell, insights can be thought of as practices or spiritual experiences too, but ultimately they all drop at full enlightenment. The best way is to reflect on yourself, buddha called it mindfulness meditation, being mindful and reflective of the ways your ego traps you, through urges and attachments which ultimately come from fear, which we all know is non existent in a true nondual state (full enlightenment), just observe and let go, you will also find out that this process will give you many more insights and depth of life, though it isnt important to cling ot them, maybe as a raft of sorts until full enlightenment. But ultimately everything jas to be dropped at full enlightenment, its just that when ur still in the early stages of awakening, you cant really drop everything just yet or youll go crazy, unless u choose the ascetic path, so using concepts such as compassion or other spiritual concepts can aid your path so that u have a more smoother ride to enlightenment. Once youve been in nonduality for a while, youll see these nuances of the path more and more. This is why the buddha emphasized the 8 noble path, but said at a certain point even that will be dropped.

@Epsilon_The_Imperial spot on mate, but just one thing though, you cannot deny that once you awoke to nonduality that your system is going through shifts that will uncontract your experience so that it will fully embody nonduality, because you arent truly nondual if you still experience fear yes? i understand that ultimately everything is one and the universe is always nondual,but as a being, you experience duality, because god contracted itself so that variety of experience arises, through fear mechanisms which create the different urges that humans have. awakening to nonduality is only the beginning, after a few years you will see what i mean by this process, your life experience will harmonize slowly but surely into full nonduality, to which you have awakened to truth, but not the full embodimient of it. but dont attach to experiences most important thing, the full thing cannot be percieved until the ego truly dies. holding on to concepts such as the ego doesnt exist and not being congruent to your experience will just backfire on you and isnt conductive to the full process of awakening. I suggest you read some of shunryu suzuki's work, he is a zen master which i highly recommend tbh.

if i were to ask to imagine a dangerous scenario where you are in it, will you experience fear? even if its just a subtle fear in your emotional system, dont you think if that was the case, then you arent actually enlightened? not saying this to demean your spiritual progress but i just notice some people are quick to call themselves enlightened, just because the awoke to nonduality, yet dismiss the process thats going on in their energetic system. you could be in a deep nondual state for sure, but have you really fully embodied nonduality? @winterknight and please dont mistake me questioning you about your enlightenment as ill intention, its just that i had a time where i thought i was enlightened too, but life gave me a reality check of the process thats occuring in its saguna aspect, we have awoken to nirguna but has saguna harmonized with its nirguna aspect fully yet? your limbic system can be the judge of that. your feedback would be appreciated my friend.

@Epsilon_The_Imperial i dont think anyone really knows what full enlightenment is, but they just walk the path towards it. i think enlightenment is a process thats occuring in your limbic system after awakening to nonduality, that slowly going through your egoic paradigms and its underlying fear mechanisms to see through it/have perspective over it and ultimately let go so that full uncontraction (release of attachments) occurs and from that point, you can truly say you have embodied god. before that is just states of nonduality getting deeper and clearer but still contracted. and ty <3