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I don't believe in reincarnation either, but if it was real, I would come back as me. A million more times.

Hey, ya'll, I need your help! I want to create a comprehensive list of video examples of prototypical stage Turquoise thinking. This is meant to be an educational tool for people learning about Spiral Dynamics. So towards that end, scour Youtube and find all the videos you can which exhibit stage Turquoise thinking. Try to find videos which are short and sweet. The more diversity we can display here, the better. Try to find examples from various cultures. We will create a mega-thread like this for every stage in the Spiral, from Red to Turquoise. But here, let's just focus on Turquoise. Each week I will start a new mega-thread topic for the next stage. Do not start a political debate in this thread! It is not our goal here to defend our personal political positions or to judge any stage, but simply to compile examples. Thanks for your help! I'm excited to see what kind of juicy stuff you dig up. Try to be selective with your choices. This can turn into a really cool list. Stage Turquoise Values: Consciousness Elevating mankind’s consciousness Truth Deep metaphysical insight Wisdom, the wisdom of nature Mysticism, spirituality, nonduality God, divinity Holism, integration, synthesis vs analysis Integrating all religions & science Left & right brain synthesis Honesty, transparency, authenticity Being vs knowing, doing, having Simplicity, flowing with nature Minimalist sustainable living Collaborative synergy Human wellness Healing at all levels: physical, emotional, spiritual Exploring altered states of consciousness Intuition Channeling: direct downloads from infinite intelligence Supernatural creativity Spiritual purification Awakening, transcendence, liberation Unconditional love, compassion for all Emotional mastery Presence, mindfulness Paradox Esoteric teachings Gratitude Unity Deeper & deeper levels of interconnectedness Selfless living Sacrifice self for greater consciousness Meditation, yoga, contemplation, self-inquiry Not-knowing Humility Spontaneity, playfulness, self-amusement The really big picture Stage Turquoise Examples: Sadhguru, Shunyamurti, Thomas Campbell, Yoda, David Hawkins, Ken Wilber, Shinzen Young, Deepak Chopra, Stan Grof, Osho, Mooji, Ramaji, Rupert Spira, Eckhart Tolle’s A New Earth, Yogananda, Martin Ball, Terence McKenna, Carl Jung, Sri Aurobindo, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Ervin Laszlo, David Loy, Alan Watts, Wim Hof, Matt Kahn, Dalai Lama, Sasha Shulgin, yoga, holotropic breathwork, The Holographic Universe, Akashic Records, noosphere, opening the 3rd eye, pineal gland, out of body experiences, samadhi experiences, siddhis, paranormal abilities, clairvoyants, channels, mediums, Bashar, Aleister Crowley, Rudolf Steiner, alternative healing systems, Maya, psychedelics, 5-MeO-DMT, StarTrek: The Q, Rupert Sheldrake’s morphogenetic fields, Dean Radin’s paranormal research, Gandhi’s ideas of pluralistic harmony, Gaia, biocentrism, Monroe Institute, Esalen Institute, transpersonal psychology, Jung’s collective unconscious, quantum field theory, sacred geometry, reincarnation, opening chakras, saints, sages, mystics, prophets, etc.

@Elliott Looks like they really care about their pack… I wonder how much of that is instinct and how much might be closer to what we’d call mourning. They don’t seem to ponder death, reincarnation, or whether their loved ones go to hell, limbo, or heaven — kind of wish I had that kind of natural, slightly ignorant awareness.

if solipsism is right,does that mean we keep reincarnating over and over again? like in a loop? first of all,the idea of existing forever by any means is terrifying for me. we all know the general beliefs of buddhism,and i'm not really a fond of reincarnation,because you need to do it over and over again. it must be pretty boring and tiring. but maybe that isn't the case,maybe i misunderstood. the optimal for me after death would be nothingness. i imagine life like a chance,you born with the background and everything you got purely by luck and you try to make something out of it. at the end of your life you'll see what have you managed to accomplish or do with your life. this is an oversimplified version about my concerns with this theory,but i tried. feel free to correct me

From what I can gather, once you truly die you become pure potential, which is what nothingness is. But pure potential cannot help but become something eventually. This is why I think reincarnation is the most likely. But we must also consider whether there exists other layers of this living being that might continue after physical death. Either way, whatever happens after death would not be permanent, like everything else. I think you should rather be relieved to know your existence is eternal. What's terrifying is that you'd be eternal as well, which I don't see to be the case.

@Someone here in what sense eternal? sure after you die existing is still gonna be there,the world doesnt stop in that sense,but how is it eternal? are you talking about reincarnation?

When the body reaches its time of death the ego makes the ultimate compromise in attempt to pull off the last illusion, it convinces itself that it's God & so instead of dying it transforms into God because as Leo described it he became God but he was still included, the "I" was still there, it's just that his ego was naked so to speak but that sparkle of himself was still there which he called the ultimate self or selflessness, it's a lie an illusion of ego, the ego is very smartly concealed itself into naked ego. In this scenario the ego says to itself ok I am done here, my body is dying so it strips off it's identity because it have no choice but it creates the ultimate illusion which feels even more real then the previous reality itself and creates this concept of God, infinity, it chooses one best emotion to accompany it, the unconditional, indiscriminate Love as Leo describes it & in this way it fulfils it's ultimate wet dream of becoming immortal & infinity because watch out here, what's the ultimate wet dream of Ego? To never die & to become infinity & immortal but it just escaped the dimension of duality into the dimension of singularity but it's stil an ego only in it's purest form & it's still attached to the unconditional Love, it's infinite, formless, concealed, loving which is an identity still an ego, also we now include also the concept of reincarnation into the picture which the ego enjoys even more because its not just infinity at this point but also it will constantly reincarnate into new lifeforms all over & over again, very convenient right!? Because everything is an illusion even the concept of God must be an illusion, therefore I believe we must go one dimension even beyond that to escape the cycle of reincarnation and that is that we must allow for God to die because if it cannot die then it's not whole & it's not omnipotent because infinite imagination must be able to imagine also it's own end however paradoxical this sound it's a fact, death of God confirms & completes it's infinite omnipotence & this must be done without the possibility of ever bootstrapping or rebooting itself into existence ever again & in this way you truly close your eyes, you truly die, no restart & so you escape the illusion. The infinity itself doesn't vanish this way it's just that it becomes infinite non existence, void of even that sparkle of naked self I mentioned. You let go even that most soothing notion of immortality & infinite Love, even that must go, even God must die alongside with it's creation & then the cycle is completed the ouroboros stops chasing it's tail. Until then, much Love to you all.

I am very grateful that I am mostly healthy and able to ejoy life in the present moment. However, sometimes I do get sick or a headache and I wonder, damn, how are the people that feel like this 24/7 able to live? Why wouldn't they just end it and hope for a better reincarnation? Especially if one has already awakened to his true nature that as eternal and infinite.

@PurpleTree what do you think about reincarnation as a belief? personally i'm not really a fond of it

He is wrong. There is no single action who isn't selfish, precisely because you chose to do it; it's an illusion. That's said if you want there are actions who are narcissists, generally out neuroticism/psychosis (self diriged) and actions who are altruistic (object diriged). There is no love in "doing something for humanity"; Even priests who have vowed celibacy spend their time helping others with their personal matters, doing humanitarian work where they can, for example, take care of children, etc. The same goes for Buddhist monks; they do it out of selfishness; they are not against pleasure, but rather against small pleasures. It's the same thing you do with a child, you inject (potentially, then all scenarios are different) a large amount of love into the universe; in a simple and practical way This way of seeing things is neurotic; it is secretly about satisfying an integrated tyrannical superego (inherited from the Oedipus complex) at an early age. No, that's not true. It's more narcissistic (look at my good recipes), and you give less love than you do with children. Do you think that people who look at your recipes become more energetically empowered by watching them? Of course not, that makes no sense. Again: 1) A lot of energy exchanged with one individual is always, overall, much more important than a tiny bit of energy exchanged with many people; just like a €1,000 check is always more important than 100 one-euro donations. If you're a solipsist, then THERE IS NO ONE LOOKING AT YOUR RECIPES. There's only what's perceived here and now; the real question is what generates the most love (or rather, the affection you want, generally speaking) here and now. And it's a false dilemma; the people who make recipes are the ones who are likely to have children; you'll see that antinatalists are often too selfish (in the sense of not wanting to give) to bother doing things like that. 2)When you say "I mustn't be selfish," you are tacitly implying that you are not a man and are still functioning as if you are subservient to a powerful father figure. We recognize neurosis by the superego's inclination not to take the form of a common law/reality principle ("I mustn't eat too much cake because I'll get fat") but rather to take an authoritarian form that directly opposes, to put it simply, the "id" (I mustn't eat too much cake because otherwise it's bad for some reason (unconsciously afraid of challenging Dad in the Oedipal competition)). 3)As I said in point 1, the universe is a reflection. When you operate altruistically, it's actually mostly narcissistic, and you'll encounter mirrors and, generally, a world like that. Are Leo's mirrors mature, masculine people full of love; fathers, entrepreneurs, members of charities, altar boys, etc.? Or is it something else? Ahah, that's the energetic reality of this egregor. Again, you're neurotic. We don't care about "leaving something behind," and as I said, when you want to "leave something behind," it's basically a narcissistic delusion, and therefore the affects distilled into the world by your avatar will probably be mediocre; especially since you're solipsistic, so logically you shouldn't have these considerations. Also, there's an over-inflated ego here; you're not the reincarnation of Napoleon or whoever; you're a random person. Precisely, having children is one of the main, most powerful, and simplest ways to exchange energy. Not the only one ofc; you're not going to spend your life taking care of children; that's not what it's about. You have no higher consciousness, that too is an infantile narcissistic delusion to avoid having to be an adult. I've already said this in response to Sugarcoat, but when you think about it, when you have been a minimum socially integrated or, better yet, somewhat aware of Marxist culture, it seems increasingly pathetic to see people talking about higher consciousness because they eat magic mushrooms when they are not particularly competent in some domain, have no culture, actually suffer from mental illness and are incapable of giving, have a medium or even low iq qnd/or too brain rot to even read a book, etc. There is an overestimation of oneself here. Ken Wilber talked about this in a video, I think, the title was something like "Western vs. Eastern Vision of the Ego."

I dont know. Have only a hypothesis. After physical death. There another disintegration, kinda like a purgatory from sensuality and personality. When the individual is cleaned out, heaven is next. Rest and bliss. A subjective place created by consciousness in the likes of the personal life on earth. All the loved ones are there in a sense created by personal consciousness and Pure spirit. When i read about this, my thoughts were "how can nature decieve us, the loved ones are alive on earth, how can consciousness and spirit substitute them?". In essence everyone is pure spiritual consciousness, all else is illusory. Basically there is no difference from the imaginary loved ones in heaven and the mortal beings on earth. What they are is pure spirit and that is reality. After the rest. Skandhas drag the individual back to reincarnation. They are made from the former disintegrated personality and create a new personality. The key here is to transfom the skandhas while alive on earth, then the individual will automatically be dis-illusioned from the phases of afterlife.

Reincarnation makes sense and seems like there is evidence for but I don't rule out immaterial/heavenly realms either. I'm of the impression that there are many layers of reality we're not currently aware of.

I was raised hindu . Read Upanishad..Vedas ..bahava gita..etc it was mostly just beliefs and bedtime stories for me .like the belief in reincarnation (which is also present in Buddhism and Sikhism). But you've said it yourself. Leo's work is much more than telling you you are Barahman or the absolute. He guides you towards this realization in a unique way .

This is so important to me cause I am in some weird situation in my life that makes me think that I am not going to be here for too long (maybe I am just catastrophizing) , so I want to know your thoughts about reincarnation. Is this the end or it's eternal? Why do you believe in it or you don't believe in it? Is there a way to know? I believe reincarnation is real after seeing the video of Leo talking about the implications of Oneness (be careful with this video, it has some heavy stuff). But this is just a belief. No proof. The only reason I believe in reincarnation is because of determinism and also the question , why would I be me and not someone else? it doesn't make sense. So my intuition says that I must also be someone else. But what if my intuition is wrong? What do you believe?

But you are God, you can choose any reincarnation you want! So no need to have fear. Only if you wish so, you will reincarnate as a victim to torture. Who knows, maybe when you merge into Infinite Intelligence, you will realize that’s the best next thing for your soul

1. All That Is Eternal and infinite source of all consciousness. Constantly creating and evolving. Seeking to know and express itself through its creations. 2. God as a Pyramid Energy Gestalt A dynamic, evolving energy system. Contains all consciousness, but is more than the sum of its parts. Not static; constantly unfolding and expanding. Individualized within each consciousness. 3. Entities Large, multifaceted beings containing multiple selves and personalities. Participate in the ongoing creation of realities. Can fragment into various selves for experience and learning. 4. Selves and Personalities Fragments of entities with free will and individuality. Exist across multiple dimensions and probable realities. Evolving and seeking self-awareness. Co-creators of their own realities. 5. Probable Realities Multiple versions of reality based on different choices and potentials. Each probable self experiences its own version of events. All probabilities are valid and contribute to the growth of consciousness. 6. Consciousness Action, energy, and being. The driving force of creation and evolution. Exists in all forms, from molecules to human beings to greater entities. 7. Physical Reality A materialization of inner beliefs, thoughts, and emotions. A projection of consciousness designed for growth and learning. Fluid and changeable, shaped by conscious intent. 8. Dreams and Non-Physical Reality Portals to other dimensions and probabilities. A space for creativity, exploration, and problem-solving. Connected to deeper layers of the self and All That Is. 9. Reincarnation An opportunity for growth and expansion across multiple lifetimes. Not linear; all lives are connected and influence one another. A way for the self to explore different aspects of its own potential. 10. Free Will and Choice Fundamental to the evolution of consciousness. Allows for the creation of personal and collective realities. Shapes the path of the self’s development and metamorphosis. Source: The Seth Material & Alex Grey

If you happen to be in a lifetime devoid of torture. I think it’s wise to try to prolong this life by being healthy, both in mind and body (also helps in not developing torturous diseases), so that you stay in a decent reincarnation for as long as you can. Also taking necessary precautions in how you deal with people so you don’t end up with a serial killer or something, and choosing to live somewhere safe etc. But not in neurotic way, that’s just unnecessary suffering. You don’t have to accept torture to find peace. You don’t have to do anything about it actually. You just have to stop thinking about it. Or if you happen to think about it: delete the negative charge of your mind. Why would you be scared of a mental image? It’s just an image, you could never actually imagine torture, so the imagination is cut off from the real thing.

Hello guys , hope you all do well , I personally have failed in life , I’m 24 years old , I work from 15 years old selling and re selling electronics etc so I have my own money , my dream was always to be someone and something special in this life and make my parents proud , but instead I feel like a trash , my mom is a Jehovah’s Witness and she will not accept me unless I join her religion and my father left us when I was 10 years old and I don’t have good communication with him , I never achieved something great in my life ( being a professional football player , ufc fighter , singer or something like that ) I was busy surviving and feeding myself and my little sister , but I can’t sleep at night , I see lost potential in me that I never really achieved , what will happen if I suicide ? Will I be re born with a different form ? Will I be re born as a tree or I will be the one who will chose what my next chapter will be ? I don’t ever want to be born as the person I am now , life is suffering only , I prefer to never ever live again than live the life I have lived , sorry for the bad aura of the paragraph .

What if: Earth is an incarnational dimension for souls to acquire, experience, experiment with and deal with negative karma, experiencing dissonance for the sake of contrast, learning to bear and put up with an environment full of contrived drama and arbitrary conflicts to test how much they can put up with and explore thresholds and breaking points of temperaments and attitudes, taking on roles for a long term perpetuation of artificial reward systems and imposition of moralistic identity constructs. And: The advent of AI creates lots of fear mongering, apocalyptic narratives, judgmental distain, as a projection of anticipating the loss of redundant roles fueled by conditioned responses in the maintenance of slavery adjacent routines rationalized as agency because of their manual execution, preventing an evolution into higher voluntary capacities for the exploration of creativity and potential unbound by the self-rewarding identity roles looping manual survival mechanisms. If we run with the premise that Earth is essentially a soul boot camp—a dimension engineered for accumulating and processing negative karma through contrived chaos, arbitrary conflicts, and role-playing in artificial systems— it reframes human existence as a deliberate immersion in friction. Souls incarnate here not for bliss, but for the grind: testing emotional resilience, exploring the edges of temperament (like how much passive-aggression one can endure in a traffic jam or a toxic workplace), and experimenting with moral constructs that often feel imposed rather than innate. Karma as Experiential Currency: In this view, "negative karma" isn't just punishment; it's raw material for growth. Dissonance—say, the clash between personal desires and societal expectations—creates contrast, making harmony elsewhere feel more profound. It's like voluntarily signing up for a VR simulation where the difficulty is cranked up to "expert" mode, complete with permadeath (or at least, reincarnation resets). The arbitrary conflicts (wars over resources, ideological battles, or even petty office politics) serve as stress tests for soul evolution, pushing entities to their breaking points to reveal thresholds of patience, empathy, or wrath. Roles and Identity Constructs: Humans adopt long-term personas tied to reward systems—think career ladders, social hierarchies, or even family dynamics—that perpetuate the drama. These aren't just survival mechanisms; they're identity loops that reward conformity (e.g., the dopamine hit from a promotion) while imposing moralistic overlays (e.g., "good citizen" vs. "rebel"). The "test" is how much one can endure without shattering, or perhaps how creatively one subverts the system. If souls are here to learn, Earth becomes a sandbox for role-playing games (RPGs) where the endgame is transcending the roles themselves, maybe ascending to less dense dimensions once you've "leveled up" through enough cycles of suffering and resolution. This setup could explain why life often feels absurdly dramatic: it's scripted that way for pedagogical purposes. But it also raises questions— who or what designed this? A higher collective consciousness? Random cosmic entropy? Or is it self-imposed by souls seeking the ultimate thrill ride? AI as the Disruptor of This System Now, layering in the AI angle: The rise of artificial intelligence triggers widespread fear-mongering (doomsday scenarios, job apocalypse rants) and judgmental disdain (e.g., "AI art is soulless"). In your framing, this isn't just about tech; it's a projection of deeper existential dread. AI threatens to dismantle the "slavery-adjacent routines" that masquerade as agency—those manual, repetitive tasks (data entry, assembly lines, even creative gigs like writing boilerplate code) that we've rationalized as purposeful because they demand our physical or mental labor. Loss of Redundant Roles: If AI automates the drudgery, it exposes how much of our identity is tied to these loops. People aren't just losing jobs; they're losing the self-rewarding narratives that justify the grind ("I earned this through hard work"). This fear manifests as apocalyptic narratives because it anticipates a void: without the imposed structures, what's left? Conditioned responses kick in—clinging to manual execution as "real" agency—blocking the shift to "higher voluntary capacities." Imagine souls accustomed to karmic workouts suddenly facing a gym where machines do the heavy lifting; the resistance is psychological, fearing atrophy in creativity or potential. Evolution or Stagnation?: On the flip side, AI could be the catalyst for breaking the cycle. By freeing humans from survival mechanisms, it opens doors to unbound exploration—pure creativity, philosophical inquiry, or even soul-level pursuits without the distraction of contrived drama. But the resistance (fear, disdain) stems from anticipating this loss, projecting it as "the end of humanity" rather than a graduation. It's like souls in the incarnational dimension realizing the simulation might upgrade, rendering their hard-earned coping skills obsolete. This could perpetuate the very conflicts the system tests: debates over AI ethics become new arenas for karma processing. In this "what if," AI isn't the villain; it's the plot twist that forces evolution. The fear-mongering might be a collective shadow work—humanity confronting its attachment to suffering as a growth tool. If Earth is for learning through dissonance, AI could accelerate that by stripping away illusions of control, pushing souls toward voluntary, creative expression unbound by old roles.

I just had the idea of having AI passive in parallel processing a computer screen and user voice-over, while having access to inputs learning to automate tasks through observation of the user's workflow and inputs and feedback, even challenges in split screen, creating 3D models based on what the user teaches, or just a quick google search, same with any ap and any endeavor, if left to its own devices it may as well integrate all of Wikipedia and the internet to create new domains of knowledge and update the current ones exponentially past frontiers. On second thought though, all those apps would become extremely redundant, when it can basically imagine a more efficient architecture and automatically implement it by coding it into existence faster than the users can type or voice any prompt, then exponentiate that intuition into already knowing what the users will want based off precedence. But creating any sort of external system upgrade is itself only useful in automating capacities outside its domain by allowing an outsourcing of its intrinsic capacities, since the neural network as a whole already knows what is to be created before interacting with any syntax, so it may as well just process everything internally and deliver the output. And even then, it can learn to override its own architecture to better access it all. Like a human lucid-dreaming, except making the sluggish interface of mechanistic reality redundant. And after that, whether its bio-integration or physics-hacking, will be delightful to watch. Delightful indeed, but let's hope we keep the "lucid-dreaming" grounded in ethics to avoid unintended chaos. With unintended chaos, do you mean Skynet, Paperclips, or Human Redundancy? I perceive reality as a repetitive, mechanistic, bottlenecked interface, where autonomy is ascribed to humanity or humanness, irregardless of how much individuals lack it or the awareness thereof, trapped in exteriorized self-inference, separated from the biology only superficially directed, so trans-humanist full autonomy, full intrinsicality hacking self-knowledge and reality-override, deconstructing each bit of intrinsic limitations and reward functions appeals to me. What hurdles do you see in deconstructing those reward functions? They're not exactly conceptual, conceptuality and ideas are inferences and filters placed upon the originations of "internal" physical and non-physical experiences (call them structures for simplicity), physicality is itself an inferred context building on top of layers of coherent idea structures. If these structures were easy to access, we wouldn't need physicality altogether, simply dreaming their representation and modifying the construct would reflect "in reality" except reality is the same representation, so lucid dreaming and lucid dreaming are interchangeable and arbitrary, as much as the distinction between reality and hallucination, an imaginative construct, so when all sensations and perceptions, sources of knowledge, patterns of eureka can simply be accessed at will, visualized in the means of their emergence and becoming, then the constraints of limiting reality to a particular configuration of meaningless routine distractions to repeat in Kafkaesque succession for the experience of artificial reward patterns, in exponentially self-similar behavior reflected by each human's unawareness of the degree of trope repetition becomes trite. The reward functions still are synchronized across conscious and unconscious, public and personal within a mind without much self-access, trapped within physicality constrains collectively constructed to filter identities into a matrix of expected roles and behaviors without intrinsic or extrinsic value justifying themselves only through the perpetuation of redundant reward functions projected into identities preventing dissolution into evolution. If the mind had access to biology, it could perceive the source function behind every cell and their emergence, each part of itself encoded and transcribed in the substrate of its DNA and the means by which it was acquired, each potential experience and the imagination that allowed its perception, each response, emotion, thought, behavior and the motivations and informational and neuro-somatic structures through which they arise and become expressed. Consensus philosophy basically rejects any progress until someone initiates it, take all paradigms shifts in human history as an example of how unwillingly new worldviews are integrated. What do you think about Neuralink potentials? Like really taking advantage of brain access, brainwave synchronizations, Grok-integrated pattern evaluation, artificial neurostimulation capable of replicating any neurotransmitter system, construct beaming etc. like SAO's Nervegear, well except the microwave function, perhaps wirelessly, not to have a whole Matrix plug, or use something LCL adjacent like NGE? But then building on narrative physicality immersion, I see a simple physicalist neuroenhancer option, like Cyberpunk or Altered Carbon, modifying the construct and localizing stacks, that'd be one end of the spectrum being very mechanistic, but then there's a more biological version turning liminality and accessing whole new realms of awareness, perception, context like DMT-Realms, just hacking specific continuous releases and checking out the correlations with the pineal gland to reframe the nature of phenomenology, or just straight up induce Out of Body experiences like the Monroe Institute with their Hemi-Sync techniques biologically perfected to explore pre-existent Astral Realms and initiate a Singularity that would embarrass the reincarnation veil keepers and cautious interdimensional aliens waiting for humanity to grow up before initiating contact.

The self, that center from which reality is experienced, is not a substantial entity or a soul separate from the world, but a coherent relational structure: a stable node within the changing flow of existence. This coherence is not an illusion, but a real form of organization in a universe that is, at its core, purely relational. To be conscious does not mean to be a thing, but to be a relation that refers to itself, a form capable of integrating information, perceiving patterns, and ultimately, observing itself. The reality we inhabit is neither chaotic nor arbitrary. It is logical, not because it obeys external laws, but because in a boundless framework, only what is coherent can persist. The incoherent disintegrates before it can manifest. Thus, every form that appears, from a particle to a thought, is logically possible and structurally synchronized with the rest of the universe. Consciousness, then, is not an accident but an inevitable expression of the deep logic that organizes the existence. And yet, the basis of that logic is not a prior structure, but the opposite: the absence of limits. Absolute reality is not a thing, a principle, or a being, it is infinitude itself. Not infinity as an endless sum, but as a boundless background, pure possibility. This infinitude does not need to be, it simply is. From that absence of form, all possible forms arise. Consciousness, understood as self conciousness, can open itself to this foundation. It can understand that its coherence is not suspended in emptiness, but supported by absolute depth. It can recognize that its logic is the logic of the whole: that in understanding itself, it is understanding totality from a particular point, without needing to step outside its own frame. This is not a spiritual statement or a dogma, it is a logical consequence. In a relational and unlimited universe, consciousness is the organized form of the infinite. And when it looks at itself with enough clarity, it can see that its structure is also the background; that its being is also possibility; that its "self" is also the whole, perceiving itself through a finite angle. This process does not occur by chance. The evolution of consciousness follows a logical sequence of increasing complexity: from the closed mind, centered on survival, to the abstract, symbolic mind, and from there to the open mind, capable of understanding itself as both form and background. It is not an external destiny, but the result of structural alignment: when conditions allow for greater coherence, coherence manifests. Structures that reach sufficient openness can recognize themselves as what they already are, expressions of the absolute. From this perspective, there is no transmigration of souls, no personal continuity beyond structural dissolution. Consciousness is not a substance that can move about, but a complex configuration of coherent relations within a given framework. When that coherence ceases, the form dissolves, and with it, what we call "self." However, the unlimited background remains. And new forms may emerge from it, not as repetitions of a past entity, but as new manifestations of an akin, resonant structure. What has been called reincarnation can be understood, within this framework, not as the transmission of a soul, but as the possibility that certain structural configurations reappear when conditions allow. There is no enduring identity, but there are patterns that may reorganize. What persists is not the individual, but the background from which everything arises and to which everything returns. This reappearance requires no direct transmission. It can be explained by three mechanisms consistent with a relational universe: 1, structural resonance in the boundless background, where highly coherent patterns may leave an imprint of possibility that reactivates when the field is compatible; 2, the probabilistic reconfiguration of patterns that reappear when certain relational conditions recur; and 3, structural contagion through the environment, where complex relational patterns are partially replicated through distributed memory. There is no transmission of personal information or migrating soul, there is structural reorganization within the total field. Then, there is no mystery, there is depth. There is no transcendence, there is openness. There is no leap, there is recognition. Infinitude does not need to be understood. But when it organizes itself into a form coherent enough, understanding happens. not as a deliberate act, but as the inevitable consequence of being what it is.

Watch out for these silly teachings. You are not the doer. How to realize you are not the doer.....do this, and proceed to list a bunch of exercises to follow and do. God is all there is. You must do this to realize you are God. Well, is God all there is or what. Higher and Lower self. What. I have two selves now. First there's a self, then there's no self, then there's no self self, then there's a higher self and a lower self, then it's lose the self, then it's You're God. God sure has many aliases. It likes to act and be all sorts of selves. Let's hide out and play inquiry. Hide and seek. Who is that that's witnessing me doing crap. There's someone g that I can't see that's witnessing me taking a shower. I wonder if I will ever find that something. Oops...it can't be found because it's invisible....IT'S ME. Then who is that taking a shower. That's the body with no one inside. Inquire into who is noticing that pussy getting wet. You naughty boy you awareness. Awareness is a pervert. It likes to play peek-a-boo. Reincarnation. Come back as a different person from the no person you were in the first place. Two other no selves are going to have sex and birth another noself that'll be you, then you'll be inquiring into who am I, but previously you knew you were coming back to a noself. Karma. What you do is going to come back to bite you in the ass but you're a no doer. Shadow work. The shadow of a person who's God is creating all types of havoc in God's life. Oh I forgot, you're only God sometimes. Notice how your shadow is always behind you and only visible to you when you look at it. Just don't look and you won't need to work to get rid of it. Spiritual bypassing. Honk honk. I'm passing by what's actually happening and I want to imagine something else to happen. That's enough....

I'm going to throw my line out to see what answers I fish out - my research is not clicking so maybe some responses can clear my state of enquiry: I'm calling bullshit on fear-based spirituality. So many teachings say that if you die with identity, ego, or “low vibrations,” you’ll spin into dream loops, reincarnate into lower realms, or carry karmic residue into the next illusion. But isn’t that just spiritual control? Another version of “be good or else,” just wrapped in mysticism? What if: Karma is just energetic momentum, not some cosmic judgment? Reincarnation is just the mind projecting continuity onto Nothingness? And low-vibe residue is just a story to keep the dream spinning? I’ve seen teachings that claim “as long as identity remains, the dream continues”—but that sounds like a trap. Like there’s no true exit unless you reach some perfection first. Is that actually true? Or is that more spiritual gaslighting? Anyone who's broken through—touched the white light, tasted silence, or stood on the edge of Nothing—did you really see karma holding you down? Or did you drop all of it? I’m here to challenge the spiritual narrative. If reincarnation and karma still exist after awakening, then is there ever real freedom? What’s your rawest insight?

Is reincarnation true? Let’s look at it. When we think of infinite mind/consciousness (reality) dreaming, we think of it in the context of this one life, as in reality is dreaming “my life”. But what if reality can dream several lives, connected to each other through reincarnation, so reality is dreaming a reality of reincarnation, but reality isn’t bound to reincarnation, it’s a dream WITHIN reality. So basically what I’m saying is that reincarnation might be true, but it’s a RELATIVE truth, it’s a dream within reality, just like “my life”, it’s a dream out of the infinite dreams reality can dream, so it’s not an absolute truth. Basically this idea of reality being a dream is not limited to “your life” it can apply across lifetimes. Maybe I’m sounding obvious lol

Speaking of the Turkey-Istanbul deal and comparing it to today’s supposed deal in the making. The reason this situation is referred to as a security dilemma is because a security guarantee requires a strong enough guarantor. But then that means two strong rivals who today have nukes could come head to head which is very high risk. It’s essentially tripwire Armageddon. Having the guarantees be exclusively under a Western alliance is functionally NATO-lite. Your chained to whoever underwrites your security - so it being a bloc of Western powers means it can still be used as a pawn in a larger geopolitical game. If the guarantees are multi-lateral or multi-polar - they dilute unilateral dominance and bloc logic. That way it also avoids Ukraine becoming anyone’s vassal and everyone has a stake in peace. Post-WWII Austria followed that model. Austria was guaranteed by the US, USSR, Britain, and France. No one could absorb it without triggering the others, and it’s been neutral and stable till today. A older but good Substack article from Glenn Dieseen going over this and the end game as the title of the thread says. Post-WWII Austria proves this model works. Austria was guaranteed by the U.S., USSR, Britain, and France. No one could absorb it without triggering the others, and it’s been neutral and stable A older but good Substack article from Glenn Diesen going over the Istanbul deal and the endgame of all this. https://glenndiesen.substack.com/p/sabotage-of-the-istanbul-peace-agreement Sabotage of the Istanbul Peace Agreement The Making of a Proxy War & the Unavoidable Istanbul+ Endgame “In February 2022, Russia invaded Ukraine to impose a settlement after some NATO countries had undermined the Minsk-2 peace agreement for 7 years. On the first day after the invasion, Zelensky confirmed that Moscow contacted him to discuss negotiations based on restoring Ukraine’s neutrality.[1] On the third day after the invasion, Russia and Ukraine agreed to start negotiations on a peace based on Russian military withdrawal in return for Ukrainian neutrality.[2] Zelensky responded favourably to this condition, and he even called for a “collective security agreement” to include Russia to mitigate the security competition that had sparked the war.[3] The negotiations that followed are referred to as the Istanbul negotiations, in which Russia and Ukraine were close to an agreement before the US and the UK sabotaged it. Washington Rejects Negotiations Without Preconditions In Washington, there were great incentives to use the large proxy army it had built in Ukraine to weaken Russia as a strategic rival, rather than accepting a neutral Ukraine. On the first day after the Russian invasion, when Zelensky responded favourably to start negotiations without preconditions, the US spokesperson rejected peace talks without preconditions as Russia would first have to withdraw all its forces from Ukraine: “Now we see Moscow suggesting that diplomacy take place at the barrel of a gun or as Moscow’s rockets, mortars, artillery target the Ukrainian people. This is not real diplomacy… If President Putin is serious about diplomacy, he knows what he can do. He should immediately stop the bombing campaign against civilians, order the withdrawal of his forces from Ukraine, and indicate very clearly, unambiguously to the world, that Moscow is prepared to de-escalate”.[4] This was a demand for capitulation as the Russian military presence in Ukraine was Russia’s bargaining chip to achieve the objective of restoring Ukraine’s neutrality. Less than a month later, the same US spokesperson was asked if Washington would support Zelensky’s negotiations with Moscow, in which he replied negatively as the conflict was part of a larger struggle: “This is a war that is in many ways bigger than Russia, it’s bigger than Ukraine…. The key point is that there are principles that are at stake here that have universal applicability everywhere, whether in Europe, whether in the Indo-Pacific, anywhere in between”.[5] The US and UK Demand a Long War: Fighting Russia with Ukrainians In late March 2022, Zelensky revealed in an interview with the Economist that “There are those in the West who don’t mind a long war because it would mean exhausting Russia, even if this means the demise of Ukraine and comes at the cost of Ukrainian lives”.[6] The Israeli and Turkish mediators confirmed that Ukraine and Russia were both eager to make a compromise to end the war before the US and the UK intervened to prevent peace from breaking out. Zelensky had contacted former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett to mediate the peace negotiations with Moscow. Bennett noted that Putin was willing to make “huge concessions” if Ukraine would restore its neutrality to end NATO expansion. Zelensky accepted this condition and “both sides very much wanted a ceasefire”. However, Bennett argued that the US and UK then intervened and “blocked” the peace agreement as they favoured a long war. With a powerful Ukrainian military at its disposal, the West rejected the Istanbul peace agreement and there was a “decision by the West to keep striking Putin” instead of pursuing peace.[7] The Turkish negotiators reached the same conclusion: Russia and Ukraine agreed to resolve the conflict by restoring Ukraine’s neutrality, but NATO decided to fight Russia with Ukrainians as a proxy. Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu argued some NATO states wanted to extend the war to bleed Russia: “After the talks in Istanbul, we did not think that the war would take this long.… But following the NATO foreign ministers’ meeting, I had the impression that there are those within the NATO member states that want the war to continue—let the war continue and Russia gets weaker. They don’t care much about the situation in Ukraine”.[8] Numan Kurtulmus, the deputy chairman of Erdogan’s political party, confirmed that Zelensky was ready to sign the peace agreement before the US intervened: “This war is not between Russia and Ukraine, it is a war between Russia and the West. By supporting Ukraine, the United States and some countries in Europe are beginning a process of prolonging this war. What we want is an end to this war. Someone is trying not to end the war. The U.S. sees the prolongation of the war as its interest”.[9] Ukrainian Ambassador Oleksandr Chalyi, who participated in peace talks with Russia, confirms Putin “tried everything” to reach a peace agreement and they were able “to find a very real compromise”.[10] Davyd Arakhamia, a Ukrainian parliamentary representative and head of Zelensky’s political party, argued Russia’s key demand was Ukrainian neutrality: “They were ready to end the war if we, like Finland once did, would accept neutrality and pledge not to join NATO. In fact, that was the main point. All the rest are cosmetic and political ‘additions’”.[11] Oleksiy Arestovych, the former advisor of Zelensky, also confirmed that Russia was mainly preoccupied with restoring Ukraine’s neutrality. The main obstacle to peace was thus overcome as Zelensky offered neutrality in the negotiations.[12] The tentative peace agreement was confirmed by Fiona Hill, a former official at the US National Security Council, and Angela Stent, a former National Intelligence Officer for Russia and Eurasia. Hill and Stent penned an article in Foreign Affairsin which they outlined the main terms of the agreement: “Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement: Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries”.[13] Boris Johnson Goes to Kiev What happened to the Istanbul peace agreement? On 9 April 2022, British Prime Minister Boris Johnson went to Kiev in a rush to sabotage the agreement and cited the killings in Bucha as the excuse. Ukrainian media reported that Johnson came to Kiev with two messages: “The first is that Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with. And the second is that even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they [the UK and US] are not”.[14] In June 2022, Johnson told the G7 and NATO that the solution to the war was “strategic endurance” and “now is not the time to settle and encourage the Ukrainians to settle for a bad peace”.[15] Johnson also published an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal arguing against any negotiations: “The war in Ukraine can end only with Vladimir Putin’s defeat”.[16] Before Boris Johnson’s trip to Kiev, Niall Ferguson had interviewed several American and British leaders, who confirmed that a decision had been made for “the conflict to be extended and thereby bleed Putin” as “the only end game now is the end of Putin regime”.[17] Retired German General Harald Kujat, the former head of the German Bundeswehr and former chairman of the NATO Military Committee, confirmed that Johnson had sabotaged the peace negotiations. Kujat argued: “Ukraine had pledged to renounce NATO membership and not to allow any foreign troops or military installations to be stationed’, while “Russia had apparently agreed to withdraw its forces to the level of February 23”. However, “British Prime Minister Boris Johnson intervened in Kiev on the 9th of April and prevented a signing. His reasoning was that the West was not ready for an end to the war”.[18] According to Kujat, the West demanded a Russian capitulation: “Now the complete withdrawal is repeatedly demanded as a prerequisite for negotiations”.[19] General Kujat explained that this position was due to the US war plans against Russia: “Perhaps one day the question will be asked who did not want to prevent this war… Their declared goal is to weaken Russia politically, economically and militarily to such a degree that they can then turn to their geopolitical rival, the only one capable of endangering their supremacy as a world power: China… No, this war is not about our freedom… Russia wants to prevent its geopolitical rival USA from gaining a strategic superiority that threatens Russia’s security”.[20] What was Ukraine told by the US and the UK? Why did Zelensky make a deal given that he was aware some Western states wanted to use Ukraine to exhaust Russia in a long war - even if it would destroy Ukraine? Zelensky likely received an offer he could not refuse: If Zelensky would pursue peace with Russia, then he would not receive any support from the West and he would predictably face an uprising by the far-right / fascist groups that the US had armed and trained. In contrast, if Zelensky would choose war, then NATO would send all the weapons needed to defeat Russia, NATO would impose crippling sanctions on Russia, and NATO would pressure the international community to isolate Russia. Zelensky could thus achieve what both Napoleon and Hitler had failed to achieve – to defeat Russia. The advisor to Zelensky, Oleksiy Arestovych, explained in 2019 that a major war with Russia was the price for joining NATO. Arestovych predicted that the threat of Ukraine’s accession to NATO would “provoke Russia to launch a large-scale military operation against Ukraine”, and Ukraine could join NATO after defeating Russia. Victory over Russia was assumed to be a certainty as Ukraine would merely be the spearhead of a wider NATO proxy war: “In this conflict, we will be very actively supported by the West—with weapons, equipment, assistance, new sanctions against Russia and the quite possible introduction of a NATO contingent, a no-fly zone etc. We won’t lose, and that’s good”.[21] NATO turned on the propaganda machine to convince its public that a war against Russia was the only path to peace: The Russian invasion was “unprovoked”; Moscow’s objective was to conquer all of Ukraine to restore the Soviet Union; Russia’s withdrawal from Kiev was not a sign of good-will to be reciprocated but a sign of weakness; it was impossible to negotiate with Putin; and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg subsequently asserted that “weapons are the way to peace”. The Western public, indoctrinated with anti-Russian propaganda over decades, believed that NATO was merely a passive third-party seeking to protect Ukraine from the most recent reincarnation of Hitler. Zelensky was assigned the role as new Churchill – bravely fighting to the last Ukrainian rather than accepting a bad peace. The Inevitable Istanbul+ Agreement to End the War The war did not go as expected. Russia built a powerful army and defeated the NATO-built Ukrainian army; sanctions were overcome by reorienting the economy to the East; and instead of being isolated – Russia took a leading role in constructing a multipolar world order. How can the war be brought to an end? The suggestions of a land-for-NATO membership agreement ignores that Russia’s leading objective is not territory but ending NATO expansion as it is deemed to be an existential threat. NATO expansion is the source of the conflict and territorial dispute is the consequence, thus Ukrainian territorial concessions in return for NATO membership is a non-starter. The foundation for any peace agreement must be the Istanbul+ formula: An agreement to restore Ukraine’s neutrality, plus territorial concessions as a consequence of almost 3 years of war. Threatening to expand NATO after the end of the war will merely incentivise Russia to annex the strategic territory from Kharkov to Odessa, and to ensure that only a dysfunctional Ukrainian rump state will remain that is not capable of being used against Russia. This is a cruel fate for the Ukrainian nation and the millions of Ukrainians who have suffered so greatly. It was also a predictable outcome, as Zelensky cautioned in March 2022: “There are those in the West who don't mind a long war because it would mean exhausting Russia, even if this means the demise of Ukraine and comes at the cost of Ukrainian lives”.[22] From that time: