Question for leo; what is sleep / unconsciousness?

[meta_male]

16 hours ago, Davino said:

That search function is the most underrated and unused tool in the forum

What possible solutions could we have?

It's more effective to google for actualized forum "sleep" or any other word in quotation marks. The search function is useless.

 

[Davino]

@meta_male

It work greats for me. You have a lot of options to customise the search really 

[Razard86]

On 2/7/2024 at 4:05 PM, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

How do you know that you went to bed yesterday? How do you know that when you became conscious this morning, it wasn't actually the first time you woke up in this reality? In fact, how do you know this reality didn't manifest just 5 seconds ago and it doesn't occur to us because of how blindly we trust our memories?

When you wake up in the morning and believe that there was a period in which you were completely unconscious, notice that that's a thought. We're not trying to judge the thought as true or false, just understand that it's a thought. A belief. An assumption.

You don't actually ever experience "unconsciousness" outside of memory.

That logic is faulty. If I punched you and knocked you out, and you awoke later on, you did experience unconsciousness. You were just conscious, while experiencing it. What humans consider consciousness is shapes, colors, sound, touch, smell. And awareness would be the ability to detect this. You would be aware that you are unconscious and were but since time does not exist in unconsciousness you wouldn't be able to know for how long. 

Your memory always takes footage of the present moment and stores it. All memory is the present moment, which is stored then retrieved and played in the present moment. So its not just some thought or belief or assumption this is not true. What is true is unconsciousness is just the absence of qualia in the human realm of how they define the word. But you are still aware that it happened. If you want you could call it a change of scenery but that change has no time.

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

12 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

All memory is the present moment, which is stored then retrieved and played in the present moment.

That's what I'm basically saying. I perceive unconsciousness as a leak in memory. It's a type of disregularity within our narrative of reality. If I had some kind of device to implant memories into your mind, and I used it right as you woke up to implant memories of partying all night into your mind, you wouldn't know that you were unconscious. You would think that you were conscious all night, partying and doing whatever.

Similarly, if I got black out drunk and woke up in my bed next morning with no recollection of how I got home, I would claim to have been unconscious, because there seems to be a hole in the narrative of my reality.

So I agree that unconsciousness can appear within this narrative frame work, but you could also say that all accounts of "unconsciousness" exist relative to this Consciousness. By this I mean now.

[ryandesreu]

Rupert Spira has an answer. 

[Inliytened1]

On 2/7/2024 at 11:04 AM, emil1234 said:

first off i wanna say that im a great admirer of your work.

however one thing i've been thinking a lot about is the matter of sleep / unconsciousness. if consciousness is literally the fabric of reality, and not something generated in my brain, how is unconsciousness like sleep possible? furthermore, there must be some correlation between the brain and consciousness, since if for example I take a hard punch to the head, i can lose consciousness. 

ive been thinking about this quite a lot, one solution is that if consciousness can scale up infinitely, it must also be able to scale down infinitely, hence something like sleep / unconsciousness.

I've also been considering; am i even truly unconscious when I'm asleep? when I wake up, i'm quite clearly able to conclude whether or not my sleep has been good or bad. hence there must still be something observing during deep sleep? or maybe I simply judge the quality of my sleep in contrast to my waking conscious state?

Another thought I've had is that sleep never happens since its not observed. but would it then be possible to sleep and never wake up? i guess regardless of one sleeping 1 hour or a 100 years would feel the same, since the notion of time does not exist during sleep.

I believe you said in one of your videos that sleep happens because one is identified with the body. however im not sure what you mean by "identified", and how this answers the question of unconsciousness.

 

It's so simple.  Unconsciousness is imaginary. Death is imaginary.   There is only infinite consciousness.  There is only Infinity.  When you become enlightened you wish for death because it is Infinite Love. 

Edited February 14 by Inliytened1

[Princess Arabia]

On 2/8/2024 at 7:11 AM, Davino said:

This is what Ramana says about the topic of deep sleep, dream state and ordinary waking. He relates it with Mind and not with Consciosuness.

It's a good perspective to reflect on

This is very, very profound. When you read this and really grasp what it's pointing to, it can change the way one sees themselves and the world. We would have no problems if this is really understood and if we lived from this place. This is really what enlightenment is, nothing to really achieve but the recognition of what is already the case. 

[Inliytened1]

12 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

This is very, very profound. When you read this and really grasp what it's pointing to, it can change the way one sees themselves and the world. We would have no problems if this is really understood and if we lived from this place. This is really what enlightenment is, nothing to really achieve but the recognition of what is already the case. 

Beginner idealism stuff.  All of this should be completely obvious to you.  If it is not there is a big problem- but only if you give a fuck about reality.  If you don't, there is no problem.   But if you do, this never should have been a surprise.

Edited February 14 by Inliytened1

[Princess Arabia]

27 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Beginner idealism stuff.  All of this should be completely obvious to you.  If it is not there is a big problem- but only if you give a fuck about reality.  If you don't, there is no problem.   But if you do, this never should have been a surprise.

It wouldn't have registered if I didn't already know this deep within. Sometimes it takes for a different wording of something to relate to us differently and to be understood from a different angle and gives us a deeper insight into this knowing. Saying something is profound doesn't insinuate that is was a surprise, those are your words. Even if it did indicate that it was a surprise, I don't think another being can tell another bring what should surprise them or not because we are all seeing Reality from our own perspectives and are interpreting it from our level of Awareness and States of Consciousness.

I can read a book 10x and each time I can get something different from it that I never noticed before or understood at the same level. Calling something beginner is completely relative because a kindergarten's beginner is different from a college student's beginner stage. I will forever be learning about myself and trying to know myself and I will choose the pace at which I feel comfortable in doing that and grasp every little intricacies at the level I'm at.

 

Edited February 14 by Princess Arabia

[Inliytened1]

14 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

It wouldn't have registered if I didn't already know this deep within.

And this can't be taught.   Exactly.   

[Princess Arabia]

10 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

And this can't be taught.   Exactly.   

The part that really stood out for me (the whole thing did, but this part especially) was, quote " When the mind comes out of the Self, the world appears. Therefore, when the world appears (to be real), the Self does not appear; and when the Self appears (shines), the world does not appear".

I see that in a new light than how I previously did.

Edited February 14 by Princess Arabia

[Inliytened1]

13 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

The part that really stood out for me (the whole thing did, but this part especially) was, quote " When the mind comes out of the Self, the world appears. Therefore, when the world appears (to be real), the Self does not appear; and when the Self appears (shines), the world does not appear".

I see that in a new light than how I previously did.

God is the deceiver.  But you can come to realize that God is that which appears as the dream.

[Breakingthewall]

This question has a basic error, it mixes the relative with the absolute. From a relative point of view, sleep is the disconnection of the brain to rest, from an absolute point of view it means absolutely nothing. you cannot change relative concepts to become absolute concepts, since absolute is without concept.

[Creatorbeing]

Emil1234 I think on Some level true sleep or unconsciousness doesn't exist...

Like in true state...

Absolute reality ...that Absolute mind never sleeps...

The experience of sleep is an idea within dream Realm...and

The ego self experiences sleep ,these points are understood......

But when u sleep whether it's dream sleep or dreamless sleep or unconsciousness....

Where is the true self in all of it...

Like ,where is the observer which never sleeps....

Does such a state exist in Absolute level...

Like a mind coming out of nothing...

And becoming conscious of itself as one true mind...

But,can dissolve into emptiness again to experience sleep ...

Now it's a hypothesis alright

....which cannot be most probably accurate I think..

Because it contradicts that self never sleeps...

It's impossible for it to be unconscious since it's existence and consciousness itself...

It's fundamental qualities...so it can't be unconscious Like ego self in dream...

Now ,they also say sleep is necessary ...

To reanimate your body cells to sustain this physical structure of yours to function on this level of reality...

So,sleep is an idea put into creation  ....

But ,still there are some accounts of human beings who never sleep like they have evolved past need of sleep...

Real accounts....

Most of secret ...one public example is a man from Vietnam I think ...

Which is on Google, but it isn't taken that seriously by scientists and others who don't  possess such attributes because it hurts their ego I think To be honest with themselves....

Some even call it disease or problem..while man functions healthy with no sleep...

Secrets account are of special trained humans....

Which I don't know...

One account can be found I'm robert monroes experiences....

When he was traveling in space and time during obe experience....

So...what happens during unconscious sleep in ego world...

Now another point to be noted is that ...

U experience sleep in night dreams as well and experience same unconscious sleep in dreams...

Have u ever woke up from sleep In a dream...

Unconscious dreamless sleep...

So it's like this function is embedded within your consciousness....it's part of experience and existence...

Till now these points are considered ...

As information to help us more and more to get to a better and more accurate answer...

So we have to consider any information on sleep including different brainwave and their corresponding frequencies....

...where we go during dreamless sleep...

Now ego is an illusion isn't it ,only true self Is real...

So I don't know but what if memory is an illusion...

My memory and your of life is an illusion because all memory of life is already known by totality...because it knows all possibilities in advance ,so it may know all life memories in advance...

So ego is made up of memory too,only focusing on this component...

So in dream sleep. ...remember how u forget about this life and live in dream world as new ego ..

A new personality...

And your memory in dream world Is new ,not focusing on lucid...bcz our goal is something else right now...

To get a better grasp and understanding, more and more accurate of what's going on here...

I never said right because I don't know...

I never said to believe it but  more for understanding...handy information to keep in mind,flexible approach...

So..considering these points..

Let's move towards more understanding..

Now...since memory of life or dreams is an illusion within ego mind..

It dissolves when u reunite with trueself...

Ego dissolves and true mind is u...

Like a shift in perspective...

So all the memory of life of ego is just already known possibilities within true mind...isn't it...

So ..what if in dreamless state,ego disappears...

See how u sleep in dreamless state..

The outer world ceases to exist for u...

Either u are no longer ego /dreamless state ,so no memory of it during dreaming state ...

Or dreaming a new reality while sleeping forgetting about So called real outer world...

As if it never existed for u..

It's a play of forgetting and memory and sleep...

So when u wake up from sleep,u notice world changed as if in continuity..

Which I think adds to the illusion of existence and reinforces ego to buy into this reality..

Continuity is key component...

So maybe in dreamless state ego the part of true self dies for a brief moment...

And then re emerges from trueself again ,not having any memory of what happened....because it ceased for some moment(I'm calling it moment because time doesn't exist, even if ego reemerges So to say 10 yrs of being ceased...

Since all reality is illusion and projection including time on your clocks...

All imagery of time is an illusion...

So,when ego emerges only 3 4 hrs have passed So to say ...

It's all illusion and when u wake up that memory of this specific life comes back too in u..

So a memory of reality is related to the world u occupy...

Until u remember memories of lives and dreams u experienced...

So ,true self eternal self all the while was always there for u as ego to register an outer event..happenening..

More like dreamless state can be merging with the self and losing yourself and coming back with a set of memory, personality ,beliefs, etc which forms u as an ego because u are an illusion  ,a projection of trueself eternally observing...

So..u can say scientists recording brainwaves during dreamless state..

But see u only experience this thing as real as awake...how can u prove it that the world despite it's continuity experience is real when u become unconscious....

What if it was a very strong imaginary dream...

U cannot prove it as an ego since it's an instrument or tool of the only true mind...

Since u and I are not real...always the one self...which constitutes it all...

Another idea is that...

When we sleep whether dream state or dreamless state..

We are still awake operating on multidimensions ,we never sleep..

But don't remember it since it's squased in physical brain..

Memory of other dimensions..

When we wake up...

They say consciousness exists at multiple places, so whether it's dream state ,u are operating on other levels simultaneously but don't remember it...

Similarly in case of dreamless sleep...

U are operating on other levels but don't remember it..so it seems as dreamless sleep..since memory is curbed..

But comparing with dream model at night..

U experience the same in dream...

So does any of this any meaning or it's all an illusion, a game..

What do u think..

I hope it helps...

I don't know the definite answer.. 

But that's my understanding..

 

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

10 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

When the mind comes out of the Self, the world appears.

It's as simple as that, but no one can do it, they change one mind for another and go around in circles. If the mind leaves, reality manifests, and reality is not thinkable, the structure of the mind encloses it and veils it, if you let it flow it really is blinding, it is much more than imaginable, and I would say for now that it a total opening is impossible, it would be death. A certain degree of veil is necessary to maintain the bubble of existence that we are, but behind this appearance lies something that I can only describe as monstrous. not negatively but because of its magnitude and its power. When they say that enlightenment is something soft, normal, everyday, they are completely outside of what reality is. reality is a burning well that will turn you to ashes just by looking at it. You can let the self be consumed by the energy that flows and that you are and become that energy, but only to a certain point, i think there is a limit that human hardware can withstand, we will see what it is. One thing is certain beyond any doubt: the glory of what we are is blinding, existence is absolute power

Edited February 14 by Breakingthewall

[Ajay0]

On 2/7/2024 at 10:34 PM, emil1234 said:

I've also been considering; am i even truly unconscious when I'm asleep? when I wake up, i'm quite clearly able to conclude whether or not my sleep has been good or bad. hence there must still be something observing during deep sleep? or maybe I simply judge the quality of my sleep in contrast to my waking conscious state?

Your answer lies in your question itself. Upon waking, you are able to judge whether you were in deep sleep or in dream state. This shows that there is a witness at all times, whether waking, dreaming or deep sleep state.