The real reason the world is obsessed with Israel

[Leo Gura]

Leftists aren't anti-semitic, they are anti-bullying, and they preceive Israel as bullying the Palestinians. This is where Spiral Dynamics is so helpful.

The world is obsessed with Israel because they treat Palestinians with very little compassion, in a very biased way.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Bobby_2021]

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@PurpleTree

And why do they do those things in the West? It is cause and effect.

The West attacked them illegally and fucked them over, therefore they do those attacks.

Bin Laden used to be funded by Americans ones to fight the soviets, ISIS is the product of Western bullshit on the Middle East.

Not to mention the totally illegal invasions of Libya or Iraq which were sovereign countries.

If the West minded its own business and let Middle East alone you would not have attacks to begin with.

Dont ignore this part.

A country is responsible for the terrorism it gets because of their bad policies. Terrorism is like when you feel sick, it shows that something is wrong with what you have been doing.

Do you think the *primary* reason for instability in the middle East is US and their invasions, toppling of democratically elected governments, bombings etc? 

---

I used to support Israel in the beginning. You can't use hamas bombings as an excuse to bomb even more people including children. I mean, you can't keep on bombing them indefinitely. 

The Backlash against Israel has nothing to do with Anti Semitism. It's not so hard to see who did more bombings. Just don't bomb people. Okay. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Bobby_2021

[Lila9]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Leftists aren't anti-semitic, they are anti-bullying, and they preceive Israel as bullying the Palestinians. This is where Spiral Dynamics is so helpful.

The world is obsessed with Israel because they treat Palestinians with very little compassion, in a very biased way.

I don't know. There are Palestinian refugees in Lebanon and Syria who aren't treated well by Lebanon and Syria. They have endured massacres throughout their history and continue to face violence due to various disputes with local leadership. Their situation is worse than in Israel, their refugees caps really look like refugees camps. Surprisingly, this situation doesn't lead to thousands of pro-Palestinians protesting on the streets of New York and London.

It appears to be a unique case where they are very selective in caring about bullying, perhaps because it involves a small Jewish country.

I think that living in the West and being on solid legal ground doesn't make them immune to anti-Semitism or devoid of an anti-Semitic shadow.

When these individuals advocate for Palestinians to be liberated "from the river to the sea," put the entire blame on Israel and lack in criticism of Hamas and the Arabs countries in the ME which are silent, and ignore the disproportionate hatred of Palestinians and other countries like Iran towards Israel (and even justify it), can be seen as a rejection of the right of the only Jewish country to exist which is pretty antisemitic.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Lila9

[MuadDib]

16 hours ago, Lila9 said:

If Jews are sneaky per your prejudice, then how would you define non-Jews?

Personally I think humans are equally capable of sneak. Not just Jews.

For example, you mean to tell me that the stage green leftists of the modern western world (people you're making fun of a bit I see)... you know, the ones who are fighting for other peoples right to literally change genders and for the rights of animals ... thats right they even care about other species! The ones why try to fight the structural corruption inherent in the first world democracies apon which the luxury of their morals rest are somehow anti Isreal because they dont like Jews? ... interesting. Wait, are they even anti-Israel? or are they just pro-Palestein? Theres a subtle difference if you think about it.

This isn't about Jewish people to them, its about the imbalance of power, which hypocritically their nations have been built apon, because to even get to stage green requires living in a country with tremendous power, which Israelis benefit from I might add. If they weren't allies with the US and by extension the UK, where the pro Palestinian protests are happening, Israel would have been a crater a long time ago and little more than dirt and savagery. This imbalance of power extends all the way down to human-animal relationships. We exert quite a bit over the animal kingdom, quite unfairly as you know.

Palestinians live like rats in modern Israel, most are innocent baby rats that are veeeeery cute. But unfortunately some have a disease which is threatening the lives of Israelis. Should the Israeli's now put poison down everywhere to kill rats indiscriminantly? Or perhaps put poison down only in the areas where they think diseased rats live? If not poison, what about brutal traps? A vegan might disagree and say noooo, they need to be trapped humanely and set free somewhere far away. Okay, thats doable but far more impractical. How are they going to be trapped and where will their new home be?

Nobody inherently WANTS to kill rats, but when they become a problem they need to be dealt with.

The best solution to a rat problem is to make sure they don't have the conditions to exist in and around your house in the first place, why are there rats in and around Israel to begin with?

People are also concerned that if the Israelis kill too many of the rats with their poison and brutal traps the it's going to trigger a much bigger disaster in the current global ecosystem.

Many other animals could die so they want to send a clear message that Israel needs to back down. They have rats, some are dangerous, but too bad! Putting down poison right now is extremely dangerous.

Notice also, that I haven't actually given my own perspective in this thread, apart from the first sentence here, only other peoples perspectives. Calling me predjudicial is a little prejudicial of you, but no worries! Its a totally natural thing for humans to do.

 

 

[Jacob Morres]

I'm pretty sure jews have mostly have positive perception and connotation in america. There's like little antisemitism here. Jewish ppl generally Being white and European helps a lot

Being somewhat prejudiced toward Muslims here is probably much more common and normalized. Probably the average person has a little bit towards them

@Lila9U should check out some progressives page like aoc or Bernie Sanders. Progressives stand up for dozens of oppressed classes, not just muslims and including jews. It's def not rooted in anti Semitism lol

Edited November 8, 2023 by Jacob Morres

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

Classic Zionist rhetoric. Conflating stage green issues with stage blue issues. Conflating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. There are a lot of perspectives on this conflict, not all of them are religion-centric. You're actually doing a disservice to the actual fight against anti-Semitism by throwing it around so loosely, which is jronically giving anti-Semites a shield to hide behind. People can see how dishonest it is to try and throw all criticisms of Israel into the same boat. It's basically the story of the boy that cried wolf reloaded. If you call all criticisms of Israel antisemitic, the word looses meaning.

[DawnC]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The world is obsessed with Israel because they treat Palestinians with very little compassion, in a very biased way.

There are many other cases where nations treat other nations or minorities with very little compassion in very biased ways. In relative terms, the world has seen worse and was much less obsessed. Your suggestion doesn't explain why this particular conflict is being discussed more then others. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by DawnC

[ShaharA]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Leftists aren't anti-semitic, they are anti-bullying, and they preceive Israel as bullying the Palestinians. This is where Spiral Dynamics is so helpful.

The world is obsessed with Israel because they treat Palestinians with very little compassion, in a very biased way.

@Leo Gura

If you are already looking through Spiral Dynamic, some important points:

It is naive to think that the correct response to red is green. This is not what will solve the problem.
A green approach will not help a person surrounded by red (for example in prison or against terrorism)
He will have to go down several steps in the spiral to survive.

The correct definition of bullying requires that it be intentional, and this is absolutely not true for Israel. Israel has no interest in harassing innocent citizens. The only reason there is a siege on Gaza is because it is the largest reservoir of terrorism on earth, most of which is hidden underground, mainly under hospitals and civilian buildings.

It is easy to criticize Israel because it is indeed stronger than Gaza and Hamas, but pay attention - if this were not the case Israel would have already been destroyed, Hamas has the intention to destroy Israel but not the ability - that is the whole difference.

If you had a threat of terrorism right across the fence, would the correct response have been to eliminate the problem? Or build defensive fortifications and ignore it? No wall or fence will help when Hamas is behind the fence. They dig tunnels and use paragliders to cross it, they shoot missiles. I am seriously asking: Is the correct response to ignore them? Defense fortifications in the style of Korea will not help in the case of Hamas either.

Yes, there is a civilian population (which, by the way, is also largely in a red purple position in the spiral) and it is unfortunate to see it being harmed, but a threat like Hamas cannot continue to exist a few meters from civilian settlements, and as you said yourself, the way to cure cancer requires a painful price.

Another important point - pay attention to where you get your sources of information, Hamas uses lies upon lies, inflates numbers and uses actors to present false images.

Edited November 8, 2023 by ShaharA

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Lila9 said:

can be seen as a rejection of the right of the only Jewish country to exist which is pretty antisemitic.

Holding the position that a Jewish state should not exist is not anti-semitic. There could be various legit reasons why a Jewish states ought not to exist. The most obvious one is: if its existence requires stealing land from others and oppressing them, then it may not be worth it.

No country has a "right" to exist. A country is a fabrication, a human construct. No group of people is guaranteed a country.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

55 minutes ago, DawnC said:

There are many other cases where nations treat other nations or minorities with very little compassion in very biased ways.

And those cases are also discussed. Genocide is a concern when it happens in China, in Mynamar, in Rowanda, in Ukraine, etc.

The Palestinian situation is pretty unique and has lasted for over 70 years. So it's of especial concern.

55 minutes ago, DawnC said:

In relative terms, the world has seen worse a nd was much less obsessed.

In any developed country which had a terrorist attack which killed 1400 civilians, we would be very obsessed over it.

This is not as common as you suggest.

[Leo Gura]

43 minutes ago, ShaharA said:

It is naive to think that the correct response to red is green. This is not what will solve the problem.
A green approach will not help a person surrounded by red

I am not saying Green is the correct approach. I am just explaining how leftists see the world. That it is not coming from anti-semitism.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Leo Gura

[DawnC]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The Palestinian situation is pretty unique and has lasted for over 70 years. 

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

In any developed country which had a terrorist attack which killed 1400 civilians, we would be very obsessed over it.

This is not as common as you suggest.

True. But note that this phenomenon didn't begin solely after 7/10. The duration may play a part in the explanation, but there are other reasonable factors. One of them is the influence of antisemitism and anti-western sentiments in major parts of the world (especially the Arab world) and their influence on Western society, as we have discussed here.

19 hours ago, DawnC said:

It's fine to hold Israel to a higher standard than non-democratic regimes. The thing is, the UN is not an organization solely run by Western countries and responsible for upholding Western values in the Western world. In realistic analysis, the UN is a global organization also influenced by China, Russia, and over 50 Muslim countries, providing a platform for countries to pursue their own interests (many of these countries couldn't care less about human rights and western values). And it is unwise to overlook the fact that many of these countries harbor societies with antisemitic inclinations. Consider, for example, the motto of the Houthi movement, read Hamas' charter, examine Iran's society, explore Pakistani society, and observe Russian propaganda these days - the antisemitic sentiments in these societies are not negligible. They manifest in actual political policies, and this is evident in many other countries (there are even patterns in Latin America).

I don't think that the western world is antisemitic in general. There is antisemitism present in both the far right and the far left (ironically), but these are both negligible in the West. But I do see two influences of antisemitism in the West. First, there are immigrant communities in these countries with non-negligible influence that exhibit antisemitic inclinations, especially certain Muslim communities. The other factor is that western countries are very susceptible to anti-Israeli messages that allegedly stem from concerns about human rights violations, but are actually rooted in antisemitism. This includes many proposals to condemn Israel in the UN originating from the Muslim world. The fact that countries like Syria or Saudi Arabia can initiate a proposal to condemn Israel over human rights is absurd. The BDS movement is another example of this. The influence of Qatar on the media and academia in the West is another. This cannot be dismissed as negligible.

And the last thing - Yes, it's fine to hold Israel to a higher standard than non-democratic regimes. Unfortunately, even without concrete antisemitism, these so-called 'higher standards' are often a slippery slope towards a hostile approach that reflects a deep confusion about which is the liberal democracy that genuinely cares about human rights (even when you consider them to violate some), and which is the terroristic, barbaric, cult-like, non-democratic society with zero regard for human life and human rights. 

18 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is a good analysis but I believe that there is another very important factor in this matter, and that is the fact of humiliating Muslim civilization. This civilization has rivaled the West for hundreds of years, and since the 19th century it has fallen far behind. They strive not to be completely left behind but with little success. This feeling of inferiority has caused radicalization and rejection of the West that is increasing, and this is important given the size of the Islamic world: there are many.

Then Israel's small local problem with the Palestinians appears, which also touches on emblematic places of the Muslim faith, where there has been much dispute for centuries. Jerusalem has been an obsessive issue for a long time.

The reality is that when Israel humiliates the Palestinians, that humiliation is felt by the entire Muslim world, and no one wants to touch the balls of 1,5 billion people. That's why the entire West wants everything to develop in the fairest way possible.

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, Lila9 said:

Surprisingly, this situation doesn't lead to thousands of pro-Palestinians protesting on the streets of New York and London

Actually this protests do good to Israel becasue the world is not stupid and starts to see how (relatively) violent and rude these specific protests are, and how different these protests are from the pro-Israeli protests. 

Ironically these protests help to sharpen the contrast between the two camps and help to see the a-symmetric between them. which is good. The more the better. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Nivsch

[lina]

22 minutes ago, DawnC said:

One of them is the influence of antisemitism and anti-western sentiments in major parts of the world (especially the Arab world) and their influence on Western society, as we have discussed here.

I think you're still disregarding the core cause of the conflict. The hatred of Jewish people amongst the Arab & Muslim world was and has been a result of Israel's atrocities, and how their entire region got destabilized since its creation. Which is terrible especially that a considerable number of Jewish people are not even Zionists. 

[Nivsch]

A video full with proves of how hamas binds itself with the civilians to a gordian knot as tight as possible to deffend itself:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzYQoRsqRLp/?igshid=MTV6Y3Vxdmo2cmw5aw==

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Nivsch

[StarStruck]

Famous Polish proverb: "the jew cries out in pain as he strikes you"

[PurpleTree]

50 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

Famous Polish proverb: "the jew cries out in pain as he strikes you"

And that‘s a quite anti-semitic thing to say

[StarStruck]

Just now, PurpleTree said:

And that‘s a quite anti-semitic thing to say

Why?

[PurpleTree]

6 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

Why?

First of all when did they come up with this „proverb“ ? 
 

after ww2 would be crazy because 90% of polish jews were killled in the holocaust

secondly pland is quite notoriously famous anti-jewish

Edited November 8, 2023 by PurpleTree

[StarStruck]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

First of all when did they come up with this „proverb“ ? 
 

after ww2 would be crazy because 90% of polish jews were killled in the holocaust

secondly pland is quite notoriously famous anti-jewish

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