New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vrubel]

@Nivsch Absolutely right, It's more for myself. I know shit and enjoy writing about history and Israel, standing up for truth is also important but it's definitely a trap to get sucked into useless back-and-forths with what could be 17-year-olds on the internet.

Also, I am spiritually regrounding myself, after 7/10 is was too angry and emotional, and even though I support and see the necessity of the total elimination of Hamas the peace dream should win out in the end. 

Edited February 20 by Vrubel

[toasty7718]

When is this topic gonna close? it's already 358 pages

[Yimpa]

7 minutes ago, toasty7718 said:

When is this topic gonna close? it's already 358 pages

I give it another 2-3 years.

[Buck Edwards]

You have to eliminate every rat in the city. Only then you ensure a rat free society. 

 

Where there's a rat, there's insanity.

 

[Karmadhi]

17 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Seems like you can invent anything at this point

Actually Israel is the one inventing things like 40 beheaded babies. When I speak I talk about actual footage and reports from credible international organizations not individual countries. If you trust Israel government which are proven liars more than WHO, UN, Amnesty International etc then it says more about you then me.

Edited February 20 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Also, everything your mind touches gets mushed into your narrow narrative so why should I even bother?

You were lastly praising me over "correct analysis or toxic green", now you criticize me again  

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

The Middle Eastern Jews were kicked out by the Arabs and lived in refugee camps before being absorbed and fully integrated into Israeli society.

I saw this happened after Israel was founded as response to the Nakba. Or are you referring about previous stuff?

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Israel is the motherland and old country. There is no second Israel. That's why Israelis are so motivated and uncompromising in the defense of their land that they genuinely and deeply love.

When was the last time Jews dominated the land? Stuff from thousands of years ago is irrelevant. Lets say in 1800s until 1930s. Who dominated the land in terms of population? If it was Jews then sure. Otherwise, it can be a problem. Usually whoever dominates the land tends to have the rights to it. By Jews I am talking Arab Jews too.

Also you may speak like this but many politicals including Bennet say that Israel is their "holy land" and basically make it about religion. And I think in 2024 religion is a stupid argument on why X people should be in Y place.

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Do the Palestinians have the right to their land? absolutely, simply because they live there. But did they also start wars that made them lose out on more of the land: Absolutely. 

I think declaring war on Israel was wrong. But also Israel atrocities and ethnic cleansing during the war was also wrong. So it is messy. From what I saw their motivation was that Jews which were a minority were given too much land and too good land. Also the whole Jerusalem issue.

Dont forget that many Palestinians took Jewish refugees that Europe did not want so that is also something. I read reports of families taking in Jews only for those Jews to kick them out later. Bitting the hand that feeds you kind of stuff. I do not know how common it was. 

I just saw it on some places so I cannot verify if it is propaganda or not so please do not start accusing me again.

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Jews are native to the land. As opposed to Palestinians, Jews actually held sovereignty in the land before being kicked out after the 'Great Jewish Revolt' into the Diaspora and coming back 2000 years later. But even all the historical knowledge aside (so you won't accuse me of using Putin tactics, though I am being 100% truthful). There are two truths side by side: The Palestinians have the right to the land and so do the Jews. For different but equally legitimate reasons. 

It is not that I do not believe you. It is just that to me, what happened 2000 years ago is irrelevant now. By that logic the whole world map should change since humans move all the time. Also it is not that I am against an Israeli state in general but to me it should be a fair split. 50/50 or something for the land with Jerusalem being a neutral place. Not this crazy 90/10 split which we have now.

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Cut your losses and make peace.

Easy to say when you are in the winning end. When your house gets stolen from you it is hard to be so rational.

Also if Israel gives Palestinians equal rights I think it would be easier for them to do so.

You are acting as there was a change of management only when there is also tons of oppression.

And these are not my words but of international organizations. So I think they know better than me or you.

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Like-wise I think Jewish settlers can also take comfort in simply living on their biblical heartland even though it might fall under Palestinian sovereignty under any future peace deal.

Sure, they can live like foreigns and then become Palestinians if they want. Same way someone from Morocco goes to France then becomes a french citizen after some years. 

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Palestinians can take comfort in that Arabs still live in Israel and partake in the democratic system.

Issue is that many organizations claim Israel misstreats them, is an apartheid and racist place. I know people that went there and told me this but when international organizations say so I think it is telling a lot. Unless Israel fixes this it will not be solved this issue.

Also many Israeli intellectuals like Yuan Havari have said similar stuff. I can find sources if you want.

So this need to be sorted out.

Edited February 20 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

could be 17-year-olds

25  

[Raze]

 

Edited February 21 by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze 

You have to site accurately. She said "... what the Jews did, that their families have been murdered, that have been raped and their civilians were kidnapped".

Can you see the trauma and difficult emotions behind Israeli public speakers talks, or that you only capable to see them as "bad" or "rude"?

How would you react if even 'only' 12 people in your village were murdered and kidnapped?

Do you think you would not react militantly?

Then you fool yourself.

Edited February 22 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

You have to site accurately. She said "... what the Jews did, that their families have been murdered, that have been raped and their civilians were kidnapped".

Can you see the trauma and difficult emotions behind Israeli public speakers talks, or that you only capable too see them as "bad" or "rude"?

How would you react if only 12 people in your village were murdered and kidnapped?

If the people doing the killings have not been personally affected it does not justify atrocities. The reason I am more lineant towards Hamas atrocities is because they have been personally affected by Israel bombings. Most of those that did the atrocities were orphans or people that lost family. The people that keep killing kids in Gaza, did they also loose family members like that? If they did then I can understand it. If not, unacceptable.

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Do you think you would not react militantly?

Military reaction and genocide are different things you know. That is like saying: "Hamas is doing resistance".

You will rightfully say: "That is not resistance, its just massacring civilians".

Well same here: This is not self defense, it is massacring civilians on a 30x larger scale.

Two wrongs dont make a right.

Also, if you say "a military response is needed when you are attacked", by that logic alone Hamas should have attacked Isarel considering all the attacks Israel did beforehand. You Israelis ignore that in 2014 for example close to 2000 civilians in Gaza were killed, 500 childreen meanwhile Israel lost like no civilians.

That was in 2014. Now those orphans grow up and make it their life mission to wipe you out.

Have you ever tried to put yourself in the shoes of people in Gaza? Look at the wars between Israel and Gaza since 2006 and the ridiculous amount of civilians Israel killed compared to their looses. 

Cant you realize that when you kill someone's family they will basically become a monster that wants to wipe you out? 

Unfortunately that is most humans. It is what it is.

Why you think Hamas is so brutal?

Edited February 22 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

@Raze These posts you shared are concrete proof Israel is acting like Hamas at this point.

I knew they were brutal but this is stage red/blue behavior at this point.

 

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi And this is why I feel I can't discuss with you.

You are conspiring whatever you want out of your hat 🪄

Edited February 22 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

30 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

You are conspiring whatever you want out of your hat 🪄

Yeah well seeing every day dozens of dead/horribly injured kids, footage of civilians being bombed with missiles, snipers killing people trying to get food, ambulances bombed, hospitals without supplies full of people screaming from pain and soldiers proudly taking selfies with hand tied blindfolded people or destroyed buildings does not help much with that.

And this has been going on for 4 months now.

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

 You Israelis ignore that in 2014 for example close to 2000 civilians in Gaza were killed, 500 childreen meanwhile Israel lost like no civilians.

That was in 2014. Now those orphans grow up and make it their life mission to wipe you out.

Do you understand that hamas survival strategy, just like breathing, is to hide as cleverly as it can behind civilians?

Edited February 22 by Nivsch

[Heaven]

11 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Do you understand that hamas survival strategy, just like breathing, is to hide as cleverly as it can behind civilians?

Bro I am proud of you. You still answer rationally to someone who is ranting the same thing over and over again. He seems possessed by this topic. @Karmadhi For your own sanity, you should do something else rather then talking shit about Israel.

[Raze]

 

[Twentyfirst]

The whole anti semitism thing was just a guilt trip. Israelis will throw it in your face as a deflection. They say everyone in the world hates them even though they are the only ones allowed to do whatever they want and nobody stops them. So the world isn't as anti semitic as they want you to believe

BUT in the past 4 months they have bred so much hate that it now actually maybe a problem. People think that Hamas is just gonna get larger but never consider that new groups will be invented in that region. So it won't just be Hezbollah ISIS or the Taliban there will be many many new organizations maybe a dozen all causing never ending havoc. They will all just start popping up one by one establishing themselves and making themselves known. Everything is so close and connected there. It's true that peace there wont be complete without the freedom of Palestine. 

These new organizations will have learned the lessons and mistakes of the past ones and develop new advanced levels of "terrorism" both physical and cyber now that there is social media. Not only will it cause havoc in that region but they will attack western countries like the current organizations do. And then to make it even worse the governments of those western countries will turn on its own people and use these attacks to implement surveillance so imagine more patriot act type laws and cameras to protect from the "terrorism" that is being provoked

This will manifest in unpredictable and predictable ways and extremely horrific ways for years to come and it's going to cause so much suffering

Edited February 23 by Twentyfirst

[Yimpa]

What do you think of what Bernie is communicating here?

 

[Nivsch]

10 hours ago, Heaven said:

Bro I am proud of you. You still answer rationally to someone who is ranting the same thing over and over again. He seems possessed by this topic. @Karmadhi For your own sanity, you should do something else rather then talking shit about Israel.

Yes this topic is not logical in its essense. It is a spiritual topic.

Edited February 23 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

14 hours ago, Heaven said:

For your own sanity, you should do something else rather then talking shit about Israel.

3 others just posted here calling out their atrocities.

If I stop the criticism will not stop.

I will just post this here and stop posting on this thread. You are right, it is a waste of time at this point.

This is my last post on this thread. I found this randomly on Tik Tok.

https://www.tiktok.com/@rubiy888/video/7337655183574371617?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc&web_id=7338839385223824928

@Nivsch @Heaven @Vrubel This is the type of commentary I would have expected from Israelis on this forum. Being able to put themselves in the other person shoes and empathizing with the other rather than just continuing the violence. Watch it and reflect on yourselves. As long as Israelis do not think like this, the conflict will never end.

And to think the Israeli on the clip actually had family members affected by Hamas rockets. Insane maturity from hil.

 

Edited February 23 by Karmadhi