New War In Israel / Gaza

[Karmadhi]

20 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Though in practical reality much of what you say basically comes down to that Israelis need to hold in their breath and die.

Not holding your breath and commiting war crimes to the point where half the world accuses you of genocide and even your firmest allies accuse you of indiscriminately killing civilians are independent variables.

Edited January 26 by Karmadhi

[Heaven]

It’s really hard to be unbiased and objective in a war..I guess it’s a survival mechanism. Doing the work helps for sure but it’s hard.

I am sure I am biased as well but I must be right🤔😅
 

[Vrubel]

@Karmadhi I had arguments with you and you showed yourself as extremely biased, unreasonable and lacking in understanding.

[Karmadhi]

3 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

I had arguments with you and you showed yourself as extremely biased, unreasonable and lacking in understanding

I am open to correction except accepting that what Israel is doing at the moment is acceptable, defendable or justifiable.

We will not agree on that.

If I said other stuff which you disagreed I am very open to changing my stance, including historical contexts. 

Edited January 26 by Karmadhi

[Heaven]

5 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Not holding your breath and commiting war crimes to the point where half the world accuses you of genocide and even your firmest allies accuse you of indiscriminately killing civilians are independent variables.

War is sad. For both sides. I feel deeply sorry for the innocent in Israel and Gaza.

Do you think Israel wants that? Did you ever seen a nice war? Try to keep an open mind and understand the other side. It seems like you’re seeing only one side of the equation.

[Karmadhi]

7 minutes ago, Heaven said:

Do you think Israel wants that? Did you ever seen a nice war? Try to keep an open mind and understand the other side. It seems like you’re seeing only one side of the equation.

Firstly this is a war we all see daily on social media and the heavy stuff can create strong emotional responses.

I have also done quite some research on other wars happening right now, like the one in Ukraine but this is far worse from what I have seen.

Also my countries are kind of allies of Israel so it adds insult to the injury.

I am sure if we saw WW2 live it would be another story but no modern social media back then.

And although the Hamas attack was horrible, I have always expressed it. Firstly there is barely any brutal footage of it (just reading stuff is not the same as seeing it) and secondly I feel sorry for Gazans even before this war. I cannot help but understand why they lashed out the way they did. Therefore I am indeed biased somewhat to their suffering because to me it has been historically far greater than the other side.

[Heaven]

9 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Firstly this is a war we all see daily on social media and the heavy stuff can create strong emotional responses.

I have also done quite some research on other wars happening right now, like the one in Ukraine but this is far worse from what I have seen.

Also my countries are kind of allies of Israel so it adds insult to the injury.

I am sure if we saw WW2 live it would be another story but no modern social media back then.

And although the Hamas attack was horrible, I have always expressed it. Firstly there is barely any brutal footage of it (just reading stuff is not the same as seeing it) and secondly I feel sorry for Gazans even before this war. I cannot help but understand why they lashed out the way they did. Therefore I am indeed biased somewhat to their suffering because to me it has been historically far greater than the other side.

I actually don’t wish for you to see the footage of October the 7th. It’s horrible. If you do want. Just search for Nova documentary. You will probably find it.

We can’t comprehend the suffering and that’s why I am trying to avoid being on the media too much. Especially TikTok and YT. 

I also feel sorry for Gazans because of their upbringing. Unfortunately I see the support they receive as hypocrisy, What they really care about is the hate/extermination of Jews. 

 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Heaven said:

@Leo Gura

I think you should run for presidency💪

Would you consider it? 

I am not allowed. I was not born in the US.

[Yimpa]

 

[Lila9]

When 3000 UNRWA teachers in Gaza celebrating the October 7 massacre.

People who supposed to be role models for the future generation.

https://unwatch.org/group-of-3000-unrwa-teachers-celebrates-hamas-massacre-and-rape/

[Lila9]

6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

And although the Hamas attack was horrible, I have always expressed it. Firstly there is barely any brutal footage of it (just reading stuff is not the same as seeing it) and secondly I feel sorry for Gazans even before this war. I cannot help but understand why they lashed out the way they did. Therefore I am indeed biased somewhat to their suffering because to me it has been historically far greater than the other side.

If you hang in a social media pro-Palestinian echo chamber, you wouldn't see this:

On 1/9/2024 at 5:06 PM, jaylimix said:

Add [sketchy links removed]

 

Edited January 26 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

@Lila9 You have been blocked from posting on the Politics sub-forum.

I just warned you. And you double-down.

Edited January 26 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

Peace and love.

Edited January 26 by zazen

[zazen]

11 hours ago, Vrubel said:

@zazenOke, fair enough 

 

The golden insight is that Jews are fighting for their naked survival. This is not a mere bias that can be shaken but is at the very core of every Israeli including very liberal ones.

 

Another insight would be is that Israeli society is like family, very open, socially free, always ready to help or do their duty and from my well-traveled experience it is the most compassionate of all societies when it comes to the elderly, disabled and handicapped people. 

I’ve seen it, Israeli youngsters would pick up an old slowly walking grandpa and drive him to his home or help him with his groceries.

On YT I even heard the story of a low life Russian drug addict who was’t even Jewish. He was picked off the street and stayed at the house of a very normal middle class Israeli family. Can you Imagine, having a drug addict where your children play and sleep. The addict reformed out of gratitude and became an devout orthodox christian, getting his life together. 

Even Naftalie Bennet, the former PM had a random mentally ill girl stay at his family home. She tragically committed suicide by dressing up in burka and charging at Israeli police with a knife. 

Israelis are not perfect and also bicker a lot and are sometimes too brazen and rash for my taste. But at the end of the day they create, build and take care of each other. And they get embittered and will close themselves off to the people that want to destroy that.  

Thanks for the insights, that's something I've noticed also with the Jewish community and diaspora abroad. Very well organised, connected and caring of one another - great to see. This same level of organisational ability is used by a lot of Jews in the West to speak out and protest against what Israel (the state) is doing - it isn't necessarily a condemnation of Israeli's themselves which often gets personalized.

A lot of those characteristics of caring for the elderly (the concept of care home is foreign in the East) the emphasis on hospitality etc is something I've seen among many Middle Easterners in general (a guest is King mentality).  However, those characteristics and being socially free to allow LGBT people live and let live doesn't justify unjust actions of the state the same way Saudi Arabia will be criticized though they may be hospitable or the US government will be criticized for their foreign policy though they are very tolerant.

Everyone's fighting for their survival not only Jews - the Palestinians are fighting for survival of their heritage and land - to not be ethnically cleansed from. As I mentioned, the Jews are hypersensitive to threats and amplify them to be existential when they aren't - this can be empathized with as its due to their past horrific trauma. But when this is acted upon and causes further trauma on another people that's where the world steps in to condemn which is then taken as anti-semitic.

 

[Nivsch]

10 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I cannot help but understand why they lashed out the way they did.

The problem with this approach is that in that way the whole notion of responsibility is completely diminished.

Why? Because everything, but everything, can be "understood" if we study for enough time the psychology behind it.

If we will investigate it enough, we will understand why Nazis started the war and killed 6 million Jews, gays, 'disabled' and more groups.

That is the point when 'understanding the other side reasons' paradigm exposes its limits, looses its meaning and starts to eat itself.

From those things we can conclude that every action of anyone, must also be examined under the responsibility lens. Nobody is exempted from it. No matter what is his stage of development and how his emotions or mental health or state is.

Edited January 26 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

@Leo Gura Ban me too! 
 

I demand it respectfully, otherwise my next post will force you too. You are clearly fine with one propaganda but not the intellectual insights from an other. 

My authentic style is very romanticizing. That’s just my personality and the lens I view the world trough. Sorry for not being a cynical soul dead analyst, thats not my style.

Yes, there is a reason Israelis have hard time being compassionate to Palestinians but instead of picking our minds, you ‘consciousness shame’ and shut us down.

(I tripped a lot, I also had trips with immense compassion but also other themes).

guess what, we are no less conscious than vast majority of the people here. And if you even for a second think these hive mind people have some kind of moral high ground or are more compassionate, that’s a dangerous delusion of the highest order. 

Ban me now or bring back @Lila9 !

Edited January 26 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

@zazen I understand your points. I won’t argue every point with you but just be careful of the viciousness of the hive mind you take part in. At some point they will make you betray your principles. Maybe they already did.

Edited January 26 by Vrubel

[zazen]

54 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@zazen I understand your points. I won’t argue every point with you but just be careful of the viciousness of the hive mind you take part in. At some point they will make you betray your principles. Maybe they already did.

Appreciate the good intentions towards me. There’s bad bees in every hive, the bad ones in the Israeli hive have unfortunately brought the case of plausible genocide to the ICJ upon themselves. 

The hearing has ruled in South Africas favour and won the case for a plausible genocide taking place. A stain on Israel’s reputation and all who facilitate it in US and the West.  

Now the pressure comes on the West as to how they deal with Israel. Their lack of response will only create more of a rift and divide between them and the Global South.

 

Edited January 26 by zazen

[Nivsch]

I see another thing. The court is right about the problems displayed by him and that Israel has to be extra careful in the next steps.

But, its decision generally does justice with Israel, because though considered SA claims, still didn't gave them a real or at least not an urgent plausibility, at least to how I interpret what I heard.

If the court thought that SA claims are really plausible, it would demand Israel to stop or sustain the war, what didn't happen.

So if to sum it up: A fair decision of the court towards Israel.

In my opinion Owen Jones is stuck on an emotional tunnel view and hope he will grow out of that.

But this doesn't mean he isn't right that there are serious problems in Gaza because of the war.

I try to be fair as much as possible here after Leo's request but also cannot hold inside my feeling of inproportional focusing only on one side's responsibility to the situation.

Edited January 26 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

Owen Jones is king of the mushy-minds.