New War In Israel / Gaza

[Lila9]

8 minutes ago, zazen said:

Keep in mind the definition of terrorism while watching the above: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Never be afraid to sit a while and think 💭 

This seems cut out of its context, heavily edited, and too short to make any realistic conclusion of that.

 

[zazen]

6 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

This seems cut out of its context, heavily edited, and too short to make any realistic conclusion of that.

 

Seems pretty clear what’s being said - many pro Israelis will struggle to process it because the Israeli state has drip fed propaganda that’s slowly seeped in like microplastics from water. 

Or they privately agree but publicly deny this sentiment.

Or maybe it’s just late where you are.

 

[kenway]

18 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

There MUST be an ideological factor invloved.

I agree with you on this, except that when seen through a neutral lens it is obvious that there are horrific ideologies being played out on both sides.

In any event, as always it is innocent civilians that suffer the most.

[kenway]

2 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

 

This is good advice.

I'm taking it.

[Lila9]

Just now, zazen said:

Seems pretty clear what’s being said - many pro Israelis will struggle to process it because the Israeli state has drip fed propaganda that’s slowly seeped in like microplastics from water. 

Or they privately agree but publicly deny this sentiment.

Or maybe it’s just late where you are.

 

Could you elaborate what you understand from Benjamin's footage because I'm not sure how from that you got into conclusion that Israel is a terrorist state?

 

 

[Nivsch]

11 minutes ago, Nabd said:

But when you see a Pole who took your home and your family members were killed then you are traumatized that killing children is normal to you.

But that is the thing. Nobody did that before the Arabs decided to start the war and almost won. Only than, the Jews started to play more dirty and occasionaly. Not as a method.

The ones who started the chain of trauma were the Palestinians.

Edited January 20 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Lila9 said:

This is not the case, it's a simplistic explanation that is also incorrect.

Black people were oppressed and didn't do what Hamas did,

1) There were slave rebellions where slavemasters were slaughtered. And you would say, "Oh, the poor slavemaster's daughter was raped." Yes she was. Because she was part of a system of injustice and what goes around comes around.

2) Black people were given equal rights eventually. And if that didn't happen there would surely be riots, violence, and terrorism.

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Jews lived in ghettos and didn't act like that.

Muslims and Arabs are rather radical people given the harsh envirnoment they had to survive in. There is a cultural factor here.

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I wouldn't say that Palestinians are oppressed by Israel, those people live on their own, have leaders, and a belief system for which they are responsible.

They are not forced to be Jews and speak Hebrew, they are not forced to do anything against their will which isn't puts the lives of Israelies at risk.

They are forced to give up land!

You are conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room!

And they are not allowed to have a soverign state with their own military.

That's what all this is about.

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Any defense Israel takes, any military force it employs, is due to the danger posed by those terrorists against Israelis. If they ceased having terror groups and focused on building a healthy state, that would be ideal for Israel.

The foundation of every healthy state is soverign military security over its boarders. Israel explicitly denies this to the Palestinians.

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The last thing Israel, as a minority in the Middle East wants is to have enemies. 

That's empty words. Israel wants land more than they want peace.

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Can you give example(s) to this oppresion? A really tangible one.

Because really what I hear in this thread is never a clear explanation but rather always something very vague like an aljazeera's soundtruck.

It's not vague at all. You can see Israeli settlements growing like a cancer into Palestinian territory, and then those settlers engage in violence too. And then this leads to militarized security checkpoints across their land which is highly intrusive.

Edited January 20 by Leo Gura

[Lila9]

3 minutes ago, Nabd said:

Because they colonized a land that is not theirs which in the mind of some Palestinians is justification for killing all Israelis.

European Jews could've came into middle east normally or as refugees like Armenians and Assyrians and Greeks or even Italians who fled into Syria after numerous Ottoman massacres or other wars.

People took them in and shelterd them from further killings. But when you see a Pole who took your home and your family members were killed then you are traumatized that killing children is normal to you.

Its quite simple I don't know why we need to explain this.

Palestinians should not pay for European anti semitism. Israelis are used by western powers to safeguard their interests just like others in middle east.

They didn't colonize it, they never imposed Hebrew and Jewish culture on Palestinians.

They don't have a home state to return to, unlike real colonizations such as France and Britain.

They don't fall under the classic definition of a colony, this is an individual case.

They were prescued elsewhere and returned to their historical homeland to solve a problem, it was a matter of survival.

Muslim Arabs have so much land, yet they started a war against Jews, even though it was no one's land under the British mandate.

 

 

[Nivsch]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's not vague at all. You can see Israeli settlements growing like a cancer into Palestinian territory, and then those settlers engage in violence too.

I agreed that it has to stop but does it really a physical opression? It is not like we settled in their villages and cities, but only couple of km around them in parts of the open area.

I am still not convinced they are "opressed", not even close to the level someone will want to kill women and children because of that, but I do agree there is an unfairness that has to stop.

Edited January 20 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

not even close to the level someone will want to kill women and children because of that

But that's clearly how they feel and how they act.

It's like you kicked a dog and then tell onlookers, "I'm not convinced he's in pain", while the dog is running after you, snapping his teeth at you.

Maybe you should just listen to the dog.

Edited January 20 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And they are not allowed to have a soverign state with their own military.

But they got countless offers to have a sorverign state.

[Nivsch]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But that's clearly how they feel.

It's like you kicked a dog and then tell onlookers, "I'm not convinced he's in pain", while the dog is running after you, snapping his teeth at you.

Maybe you should just listen to the dog.

But nobody kicked anyone before the Palestinians decided to start a war and almost won (wikipedia). Only when the Jews were cornered and almost killed, only then they started to play dirty occasionaly but at this point this is a jungle. And in the jungle everyone will do anything. This is an uttetly CIVIL war. The whole thinking process is being shut down by the ancient brain.

Edited January 20 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

10 minutes ago, Nabd said:

This is utterly bullshit.

Please stop being extremely biased that you don't even read history.

People knew about the British intention of creating Israel and of course no one will allow such a state which is made up of people who are foreigners, which made them colonizers.

These are slogans surrounded by warm air. This is language manipulation.

You are invited to break down those high (and also misleading) words if you want to discuss seriously.

Edited January 20 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

But nobody kicked anyone before the Palestinians decided to start a war

You kicked them when you settled on their land.

When that clicks for you, everything will make sense. Otherwise not.

Edited January 20 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You kicked them when you settled on their land.

Then from this logic the terror is justified from the very fact that Israel exists.

Edited January 20 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

   This is getting a bit heated ATM. @Carl-Richard and @Thought Art might need to chill things here.

   We have to step back and slow down a bit, because now it's no longer just Israel versus Palestine, or the total sum evils done onto Palestine by Israel, starting from 3,500 roughly years ago, but Yemen and the Houthis are getting involved and the Houthis are attacking almost any shipping coming from the south through red sea. I feel like this is very similar to WW1, where 1 or 2 local events cascaded and had domino effects throughout the regions. What would we do if this conflict starts spiraling out of control, and Israel drags the USA much further into this conflict, and even bring in the UK, Russia, even China? This could seriously escalate within this year into a WW3 scenario. I feel now there's just literally so much evil being done back and forth by both sides that there's literally no innocence here, no innocence at all, just which side is more abusive than the other in the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Edited January 20 by Danioover9000

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Then from this logic the terror is justified from the very fact that Israel exists.

Bingo!

[Nivsch]

@Nabd There was no state here to begin with. Jews came here to a semi-vaccum.

2. Jews have an historical connections that you just decide to wash out.

[Lila9]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

They are forced to give up land!

You are conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room!

And they are not allowed to have a soverign state with their own military.

That's what all this is about.

People were always forced to give up land, this doesn't justify what they are doing, especially when they receive so much support and money from the world and have many options across the Middle East. 

Having their own military doesn't guarantee that it wouldn't be used against Israel, it will only make this conflict uglier, as this military probably will cooperate with Iran and other anti-Israel states that have an interest in maintaining this conflict as they aim to destroy Israel.

[Nivsch]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Bingo!

Then there is no real opression here.

Doesnt it seem problematic to you that the explanation to oct 7th is that Israel exists (and not really the settlements as we now see)?

Because then oct 7th is self justified and the Palestinians have a complete exemption from any responsibility.

Edited January 20 by Nivsch