New War In Israel / Gaza

[Merkabah Star]

14 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Merkabah Star  This war is their only chance to be free and to heal. No ceasefire until Gaza is clean from the virus.

All this brutal war is doing is making more extremists than before. 
 

oh yes, the virus word again. 

[Nivsch]

15 minutes ago, Merkabah Star said:

All this brutal war is doing is making more extremists than before. 
 

oh yes, the virus word again. 

Not necessarily.

See what happened after WW2 for example.

We can't know exactly what it will bring. It depends very much on how the geopolitical window of opportunity will be utilized.

Also such an extreme crisis can awaken part of the population. Deep down part of them know who is the real cause.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

@Nivsch

yeah right. You live in fantasy land in your head. 
 

 

[zazen]

12 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Such things don't die down within a month, get real. Israelis are nowhere near closure. The whole thing is still ongoing with the hostages and young soldiers fighting. 

True, what differentiates this from 9/11 is that the perpetrators of the attack are on the border and not far away in the case of US / Afghanistan and the Israeli's are hypersensitive to threat due to their past traumatic history. But hypersensitivity may get the best of them - it informs their military strategy and reaction (Dahiya doctrine) and establishing a deterrence capacity through show of force. Their hypersensitivity makes them insensitive to the suffering of others and international law - both of which only causes more suffering (as a response) and global condemnation + rise in anti-Semitism.

The general shift of the society to the right and the rhetoric and attitude even before October 7th is telling. It's hard to tell between what is a reaction to October 7th or what is a revelation of their true character and feelings towards Palestinians.

We are told that Palestinians or the Muslim populations in general have something wrong within their own society (a virus as Nivschs says) making them more violent - yet it's the US and Israel who insist upon this war rather than a ceasefire. The Arab nations have mostly tried to de-escalate except Yemen who is the most active in retaliating and causing economic pain.

[lina]

15 minutes ago, zazen said:

We are told that Palestinians or the Muslim populations in general have something wrong within their own society (a virus as Nivschs says) making them more violent 

Sam Harris's faulty biased narrative is infecting a lot. They genuinely believes an ideology has the power to make 2.3 million people in Gaza or (2 billion Muslim in the world) to be gleefully waiting for Martyrdom and willing to commit suicide bombing any day. Let's dismiss basic psychology and the cries and calls for help by the Gazans to save their lives and believe Sam Harris instead. 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by lina

[zazen]

15 minutes ago, lina said:

Sam Harris's faulty biased narrative is infecting a lot. They genuinely believes an ideology has the power to make 2.3 million people in Gaza or (2 billion Muslim in the world) to be gleefully waiting for Martyrdom and willing to commit suicide bombing any day. Let's dismiss basic psychology and the cries and calls for help by the Gazans to save their lives and believe Sam Harris instead. 

 

 

True - militaristic jihad and martyrdom aren't life goals of Muslims lol they do however help frame struggle and suffering to make them more bearable similar to how self help / law of attraction / stoicism re-frames life's hardships as a buffer against them. Of course these can be taken to extreme degrees - majority of Muslims criticise these extreme manifestations yet ignorance will still blanket label 2 billion people.

If most people mingled with and broke bread with different people including 'stage red' 'developing people' they'd realise beyond the superficial differences we are mostly the same with the same encoded desires and drives that biology chains us down to. Having friends from these places and been to them myself I can attest to that.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by zazen

[lina]

1 minute ago, zazen said:

 militaristic jihad and martyrdom aren't life goals of Muslims lol they do however help frame struggle and suffering to make them more bearable similar to how self help / law of attraction / stoicism re-frames life's hardships as a buffer against them.

Well said. Trying to gaslight that suffering and struggling by pointing fingers at said framework will take us nowhere. Without addressing the root cause the problem will only become bigger. 

[Danioover9000]

   Early Merry Christmas:

 

[Vrubel]

14 minutes ago, zazen said:

Their hypersensitivity makes them insensitive to the suffering of others and international law - both of which only causes more suffering (as a response) and global condemnation + rise in anti-Semitism.

I get your point but there is nothing really exceptional about the Israeli reaction, trauma or no trauma, the way Hamas unleashed itself on civilians is beyond anything. Most countries would react the same and worse. The bottom line is that Israel has to take away the threat now, which can only be done by a full-scale war and the overpowering of Hamas.
 

19 minutes ago, zazen said:

The general shift of the society to the right and the rhetoric and attitude even before October 7th is telling. It's hard to tell between what is a reaction to October 7th or what is a revelation of their true character and feelings towards Palestinians.

Palestinians can choose the path of accumulating compassion or can choose war and terrorism. They chose the latter hence Israel's peace movement is nowadays nothing of what it used to be. History shows that peaceful struggles for political rights can be extremely effective, especially given the special status of the Palestinians and how much media attention they get. Palestinians will never get the critical mass of sympathy as long as they do and embrace terrorism. Most people will not have deep sympathy for a culture laced with Islamism and genocidal anti-Semitism. On the other hand, it's very easy (especially for Western people) to have sympathy towards a level-headed peaceful person on whom injustice is done. Unfortunately, evil won out over good in the current situation. 

 

35 minutes ago, zazen said:

We are told that Palestinians or the Muslim populations in general have something wrong within their own society (a virus as Nivschs says) making them more violent - yet it's the US and Israel who insist upon this war rather than a ceasefire. The Arab nations have mostly tried to de-escalate except Yemen who is the most active in retaliating and causing economic pain.

A ceasefire for Israel is an absolute absurdity. It must now finish the job and return to a point of security and deterrence so that the border kibbutz villages can again get populated and the threat of terrorist infiltrations and rockets is gone. Obviously, it's easy for countries that don't face the Israeli survival challenge to call for a ceasefire. 
I would argue that in the long term, it's more compassionate for everyone if Israel finishes the job and removes Hamas from power. It would be a nightmare scenario also for the Palestinians if they still get ruled over by such an organization that dehumanizes their own population so deeply and absolutely. 
I think most Gazans don't support Hamas anymore which brought them nothing but destitution and destruction. I have seen how they speak out against Hamas. For some reason, it's often the old grannies who are the wisest and have the biggest balls.

 

13 minutes ago, zazen said:

True - militaristic jihad and martyrdom aren't life goals of Muslims lol they do however help frame struggle and suffering to make them more bearable similar to how self help / law of attraction / stoicism re-frames life's hardships as a buffer against them. Of course these can be taken to extreme degrees - majority of Muslims criticise these extreme manifestations yet ignorance will still blanket label 2 billion people.

If most people mingled with and broke bread with different people including 'stage red' 'developing people' they'd realise beyond the superficial differences we are mostly the same with the same encoded desires and drives that biology chains us down to. Having friends from these places and been to them myself I can attest to that.

Yes, a huge part of the problem is that people build demonizing myths about each other if they don't interact with each other. I don't have cartoonish views of stage red people, I also traveled a lot including to some really impoverished ghetto places. Most of them are nice pleasant people but they make for low-quality dysfunctional societies. The last thing you want to throw into such a place is an Islamist ideology. 

[Raze]

 

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Raze

[Danioover9000]

@Raze  and @zazen, another interesting video I came across:

 

[Danioover9000]

38 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Raze  and @zazen, another interesting video I came across:

 

   This obviously raises questions of whether a country has the right to do espionage or try to lobby and leverage as much as possible? On the one hand yes some protests or movements could lead to some increase in harm, but on the other hand this espionage action undermines that country's democracy and freedom of speech to some degree, so is it justified for one country to manipulate like this behind the scenes?

[Danioover9000]

 

[Merkabah Star]

52 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 

The mindset there is so brainwashed, it’s like mind control. This thread exposes it all, no one gives a shit about the Gazans. Everything is justified. 

[Merkabah Star]

Quote

The International Rescue Committee has released the following statement on the passage of the UN security council resolution regarding aid delivery into Gaza:

The International Rescue Committee (IRC) welcomes the demands for immediate, safe and unhindered humanitarian access through all available routes to Palestinians throughout Gaza, for international humanitarian law to be upheld and for the unconditional release of hostages contained in UNSC Resolution 2720. These are prerequisites for relief of the humanitarian suffering.

However, with more than 20,000 Palestinians killed and latest food insecurity numbers showing unprecedented threat of starvation in Gaza, much more is clearly needed…

We reiterate that the only way fully to protect Palestinian lives, enable a sufficient humanitarian response, and offer the best chance of hostage release, is to stop to the fighting. From a humanitarian point of view, the failure of the UNSC to demand an immediate and sustained ceasefire is unjustifiable.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/dec/22/israel-gaza-war-live-updates-un-security-council-resolution-us-backing

 

[zazen]

15 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Raze  and @zazen, another interesting video I came across:

 

Very interesting documentary. All organisations will try to influence but this is very sophisticated and goes deep behind the scenes. Makes you wonder the motives and dirtiness of politics/politicians.

 

A relevant clip showing the puppet masters blatantly in action from yesterdays UN resolution:

Freudian slip through a gesture? Her good conscience wasn’t good for vested interests.

[kenway]

 

Finkelstein rebutting Bill Maher's position on Israel Defense

[Nivsch]

20 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Raze  and @zazen, 

 

"Appartheid state"? How?

Why can't 20 seconds of a single Al Jazeera's video pass without be sound like a kindergarden? 

Come on 🎢🎡

Edited December 23, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

22 hours ago, Raze said:

 

 

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

"Appartheid state" 😂

Why can't barely 20 seconds of a single Al Jazeera's video pass without be sound like a kindergarden? 

Come on 🎢🎡

Israel’s situation is almost like its own thing. People automatically jump to the most obvious definition of the word and where it originated in South Africa.

 

But if the situation is close enough to fit the definition for many organisations and prominent people to use it then surely it must have some truth.

Here’s a amnesty article / report on it which can be downloaded in any language:

https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/israel-palestinians-are-living-under-system-apartheid-major-new-report

 

Former Israeli peace negotiator and advisor to former PM Daniel Levy even uses the word in the video above that Raze shared.

Edited December 23, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen Palestinians in the west bank are under the responsibility of the PLO as their official civil authority, while in Gaza strip they are under hamas.

IDF is found in wide forces within the west bank for security purposes since 2002, what proved to be the only way to stop the suicide bombing happened in busses and restaurants from ones to twice a week.

I'm in the middle of the video of Daniel Levy but it sounds he suggests a return to 48' lines?

Later he uses definitions and creates some sort of scheme or n not so clear equation from it, to moralize against the Jews moves in 1947-8 but he overlook the fact that they stemmed from a survival challenge they have faced after almost lost in a civil-like war between them and the Arabs reinforced by 6 Arabs countries.

By the way the land occupied in 1967 was under Jordan.

About Gaza he doesn't suggest any pratical alternative way to eliminate hamas besides moralizing.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Nivsch