New War In Israel / Gaza

[Vrubel]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Giga-Zionist

Hunts Palestinian babies with dynamite.

Exactly, "Giga ultra super Zionist". But what even is Zionism? what's its origin and history? Frivolous things like knowledge, insight, and context don't matter. It's Evil! 

[Twentyfirst]

 

[Karmadhi]

@zazen Nothing surprises me about IDF anymore at this point...

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I love how the Pro Israelis here are quick to point out Hamas rapes and torture of civilians but when countless sources are sent here that say that the IDF has done similar stuff throughout the years, they are silent and conveniently  ignore them.

Biases 101  

This is what you want to think, but within IDF this is relatively rare. 

If you want to be taken seriously don't create fake symmetry out of nowhere.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

But it’s difficult to know whether a certain group is truly developed or  ‘civilised’ or that certain groups are just wealthy enough to pretend to be.

You are right. Come visit here and judge for yourself.

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Even Ehud Barack said “If I was [a Palestinian] at the right age, at some stage I would have entered one of the terror organizations and have fought from there.”

This is an honest thing to say. We all might be that way if we were palestinians. I want to believe I would be different because even here I hate any herd thinking especially in health and mental health issues, but yes I could be one of them I can't know.

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Stages of development doesn’t make one group or person a different species that are inherently evil

I want to believe stage red can look healthier than the palestinians culture. They are not only red (mainly red) but also there is something more there, you can see the cruelty and the roughness in every thing they do also to themselves. There must be here something more like a kind of mental disorder in a collective scale.

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Is a broken orange/green society still better than a healthy red/blue society? Possibly,

I think healthy blue is better than broken orange. Thats for sure.

Also I think the right frame is "Transcend, include and forget".

When orange becomes green he remembers again some blue and purple qualities. But now they get mixed with orange to create a new color but this is not that new except the color.

Development I think is realizing things you are in your subconsious ( and the deepest self) to begin with but you just have not seen them clearly before,

1 hour ago, zazen said:

A stage red primitive tribe might be sick and dangerous but their destruction will only be localised to their village surroundings

But also to itself if its unhealthy like you see in the palestinians.

1 hour ago, zazen said:

a stage orange techno-capitalist superpower though having more inclusive and broader values including democracy and science can inflict a negative global impact if this stage becomes sick, pathological or unhealthily manifest.

Agree. Also in the health and mental health of people being toxicated with victim mentality "because this is how your brain is" "This is genetic so you can only live with it" "Those thoughts are just a meaningless disorder and bring nothing more with them" "Just tame your brain with techniques becuse it is a stupid machine" etc.

1 hour ago, zazen said:

The individual and wielder of the tool needs to be just as developed - a parrallel match because the stakes are higher

Agree.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

I love how the Pro Israelis here are quick to point out Hamas rapes and torture of civilians but when countless sources are sent here that say that the IDF has done similar stuff throughout the years, they are silent and conveniently  ignore them.

Biases 101  

   Yes, bias 101, but actually it's hypocrisy 101.

[Twentyfirst]

Israelis wondering why those damn Arabs are always attacking them not realizing it's because they took their land in 48  

Maybe they really don't know why Palestinians do what they do? 

[Twentyfirst]

 

[lina]

On 11/30/2023 at 5:36 PM, Nivsch said:

I am absolutely agree, I just think that a 8 year old child can be neutralized in other ways, and if a soldier feels he must shoot because his life is in threat, he can still shoot on the leg or foot. I cannot understand shooting in a child head because this is firstly just wrong in any sense becuase this is a life of a 8 yo child who again can be neutralized quite easily in other ways, and secondly the world doesn't interested in the complex explanations, the damage has already done.

I understand you represent a reasonable Israeli perspective, but I still cannot find any justification even for shooting their leg. Making people crippled for life or amputees is not something to be taken lightly. Especially because this was in the occupied territories of west bank, from a legal and moral point of view Palestinians have every right to resist. 

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Karmadhi

   Yes, bias 101, but actually it's hypocrisy 101.

Just like how Israel says its okay to take land because the UN says so but ignores international law of everything else 

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

@zazen Nothing surprises me about IDF anymore at this point...

 

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

1 hour ago, zazen said:

@Vrubel @Nivsch 

Agreed theirs plenty wrong within Arab societies and they need to do their own work. The external environment amplifies this. But it’s difficult to know whether a certain group is truly developed or  ‘civilised’ or that certain groups are just wealthy enough to pretend to be. If Americans were put in Gazans situation would it be any different. Even Ehud Barack said “If I was [a Palestinian] at the right age, at some stage I would have entered one of the terror organizations and have fought from there.”

Even if they are less developed and it’s not entirely Israel’s fault for how they are - it doesn’t justify or make Israel’s actions right.

Stages of development doesn’t make one group or person a different species that are inherently evil. It just means one group has developed more but those elements of other stages are still there lying dormant. Culture evolves faster than biology, and whilst we are in biological form we are chained or grounded by biology. Stage yellow and turquoise sages are still susceptible to biological reality as Osho was to his ill health despite being awakened or ‘developed.’

Developed groups still have the ancient instincts we finger  point less developed groups for acting upon, and the more developed groups can just pull at those instincts in different ways. You can be a stage green eco terrorist for example - growth can also be a cancer.
 

Is a broken orange/green society still better than a healthy red/blue society? Possibly, but a more developed society has more powerful tools with more leverage and potential for destruction which could make them more of a threat. A stage red primitive tribe might be sick and dangerous but their destruction will only be localised to their village surroundings whilst a stage orange techno-capitalist superpower though having more inclusive and broader values including democracy and science can inflict a negative global impact if this stage becomes sick, pathological or unhealthily manifest.

 

A highly developed society generally has more powerful instruments / tools, but if the individuals of that society become unhealthy their potential for chaos is greater. The individual and wielder of the tool needs to be just as developed - a parrallel match because the stakes are higher. A sick red society may only cause ripples on the world stage due to their limited tools of power but a developed orange society with more powerful tools will cause a tsunami of damage.

 

We can use spiral dynamics to make sense of the world or make our sense of self more righteous in relationship to others lower on the spiral.

 

In the past it was whoever can defend the land keeps it - rights to land are based on the might of those fighting for it. With a national consciousness spreading and bordering up of the world including the Arab regions this would have eventually trickled to the Palestinians, they just didn’t get there in time for the nationalising party which kicked off in the mid to late 1940’s.
 

Obviously nationalising can be taken to an extreme where every group, tribe or sect want their own nation - I’m not sure where that starts and stops and what a healthy amount is to be honest. For example now even Barcelona want to separate from Spain.

If this Israel Palestine scenario was happening in the past people wouldn’t make such a deal of it as the unspoken word then was whoever had the might had the right but today we live in a post expansionist world - at least when it comes to geography. Powers now expand through commerce and capital. The board game of geography is replaced with the board rooms of corporations - but that’s another conversation.

   Very good post. True about nationalizing, post expansionist and modernized world, and techno-capitalist corporations or big tech companies.

   Yes, we can use Spiral Dynamics to make sense of the world, but it's important to keep in mind self biases and preferences that plays into how we use Spiral Dynamics. We can have an Israeli here, and a Palestinians there, and let's assume both use Spiral Dynamics. You can bet one side will use and weaponize Spiral Dynamics to justify Israel's evil actions, whilst the other side will also use and weaponize Spiral Dynamics to justify their evil actions. In this hypothetical, it's clear we need other modals of reality, and other groups of authority to adjudicate the usage of those modals, as we should clearly see that a Palestinian using this modal has an agenda and bias to make their side the better and the other the evil, but so does an Israeli have a bias and agenda to make HAMAs and Palestinians like animals in comparison to the saintly Israeli. This is also why we have the legal and court systems of today, and evolve away from tribal revenge killings because when we leave the justice system to the perpetrator and victim that creates cycles of hate that can be generational.

[Nivsch]

12 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

 

This thing has happened in the 2000's in some of the sub units within the combatants.

There is idiocy and toxic cells everywhere you go all over the world, but you choose to cherry pick those to create toxic symmetry which can happen only in fairy tales between Israel and the medieval barbarism arount it.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

within IDF this is relatively rare. 

Mass killing kids and breaking international laws unfortunately is not  

I saw recently a British UN in Gaza saying "This is a war on childreen".  A guy from a country that supports Israel that is actually in Gaza since 2 months says that. It shows so much about what is going on there.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

@Twentyfirst

8 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Just like how Israel says its okay to take land because the UN says so but ignores international law of everything else 

Just like how Israel says it's okay to take land because the UN said so? Did they? I thought the UN condemned Israel for committing international war crimes and condemned them for taking land?

[Nivsch]

31 minutes ago, lina said:

I understand you represent a reasonable Israeli perspective, but I still cannot find any justification even for shooting their leg. Making people crippled for life or amputees is not something to be taken lightly. Especially because this was in the occupied territories of west bank, from a legal and moral point of view Palestinians have every right to resist. 

Technically this is not that simple when parents send their poor children to put an exclusive device to IDF soldiers. You don't appreciate how different their world view from me and you. This is not just hamas. 

But anyway if they can neutralize them by unharming materials like the police use to control violent protests this is of course better.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

6 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Twentyfirst

Just like how Israel says it's okay to take land because the UN said so? Did they? I thought the UN condemned Israel for committing international war crimes and condemned them for taking land?

I mean back in 48 with the British and UN 

[Lila9]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Wow thats great and so true (the whole message I just cutted the punchline) Like it.

You wrote in from your own? Its genius.

Zionism here got a new function as a mental frame people use here as often as they breath, to keep them in distance from Israelis and above them, and not confront the fact they are humane exactly like them.

Thank you  

I had a creative spark at night, glad that you liked!

That's hilarious how people describe Zionists and what evil characteristics they attribute to them, without realizing that they are normal people dealing with terror, not that different from the average American, French, German or any other hunan who may deal with the same Islamic terror threat.

A Zionist = a Jew who wants to live in his only ancestral land. So simple.

 

 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

43 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

You are right. Come visit here and judge for yourself.

This is an honest thing to say. We all might be that way if we were palestinians. I want to believe I would be different because even here I hate any herd thinking especially in health and mental health issues, but yes I could be one of them I can't know.

I want to believe stage red can look healthier than the palestinians culture. They are not only red (mainly red) but also there is something more there, you can see the cruelty and the roughness in every thing they do also to themselves. There must be here something more like a kind of mental disorder in a collective scale.

I think healthy blue is better than broken orange. Thats for sure.

Also I think the right frame is "Transcend, include and forget".

When orange becomes green he remembers again some blue and purple qualities. But now they get mixed with orange to create a new color but this is not that new except the color.

Development I think is realizing things you are in your subconsious ( and the deepest self) to begin with but you just have not seen them clearly before,

But also to itself if its unhealthy like you see in the palestinians.

Agree. Also in the health and mental health of people being toxicated with victim mentality "because this is how your brain is" "This is genetic so you can only live with it" "Those thoughts are just a meaningless disorder and bring nothing more with them" "Just tame your brain with techniques becuse it is a stupid machine" etc.

Agree.

   Is it reasonable and safe to tell a user to come visit and judge yourself in Israel, West Bank or Gaza when there's a war going on?

   You don't like conformity, yet you excuse the conformity and group think in Israel and Zionism?

   How is Palestinian culture stage red? Do you mean HAMAs or Palestinians in general, and why use Spiral Dynamics to generalize? Also, if there's some collective mental disorder in Palestinians, then does Israel have a collective mental disorder from Nazi Germany's holocaust? Is the cause for Palestinian's collective mental health disorder caused by Israel's actions?

   How is healthy stage blue better than excess stage orange?

   How is 'transcend, include and forget.' the right framing, considering you misquoted Ken Wilbur's 'transcend and include.'. Why include 'forget.'? Is there something you want the world to forget about Israel's actions?

   Why are you personifying Spiral Dynamics colours when this modal is about human values evolution: 'when orange becomes green he remembers again some blue and purple qualities. But now they get mixed with orange to create a new colour but this is not that new except the colours'? Are you conflating Spiral Dynamics with colour theory?

   If development is when a person realizes things within their subconscious they haven't realized before, how does this help the Israel/Palestine conflict when both sides are in deep denial of and are ignorant of their actions? Also you said it's quite unhealthy in Palestinians, but what about the Israelis taking land from them, and being lead by Zionists and nationalists who are similar to Nazi Germany? Is Israel and Israelis then, by your meaning of development, not developed enough?

[Lila9]

Heartbreaking how many cultures have been removed due to Islamic occupation of the middle east. 

The middle east looked differently prior to Islam, many many beautiful cultures. Huge variety.

And now there is Islamic superiority there and everyone who is not a Muslim is doomed to constant violence and terror attacks.

Islam occupied 50 countries, and nobody's care but when Jews return to their only homeland after being occupied and expelled twice, everyone shouts that Jews are occupiries of the poor Muslims.

And not only that, they expect from Israel to tolerate the abuse of the Muslim Arabs who call themselves Palestinians and "treat them better" despite these poor Palestinians wanting to eliminate all the Jews, and despite Jordon, Lebanon and Syria still treating the Palestinians in their territory like a class B citizens. The quality of life of Palestinians in Arab countries are worse that the life quality of Palestinians of the WB and Gaza together.

Yet, nobody cares about Palestinians in the Arab countries 🙂

Syria alone expelled 850,000 Palestinians. Nobody cares. 

What an hypocritical world 🤦🏼‍♀️

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Lila9