New War In Israel / Gaza

[Breakingthewall]

3 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Hamas fighters have suffered a lot under Israel so they have reasons to be ruthless,

The question would be: What did Hamas hope to achieve with its action?

[Karmadhi]

@Breakingthewall Provoke Israel to over react and Israel did that. Now Israel reputation (also the USA) is lowest its even been. The world is mad at them. Anti Semitism around the world is on the rise. Also a lot more sympathy for Palestine and a two state solution is now being discussed which was out of the question.

Lastly it is a desperate attempt for Arab support on the Palestinian cause which was almost gone. Saudi Arabia siging the treaty with Israel would be the death of Palestine. These guys are nationalists, they see it from a nationalistic perspective not humanitarian.

So if 20.000 Palestinians need to be sacrificed for Palestine to still exist they will do it.

A humanitarian liberal cares about preservation of life firstly, not preservation of a "state".

Edited November 9, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Breakingthewall]

1 minute ago, Karmadhi said:

@Breakingthewall Provoke Israel to over react and Israel did that. Now Israel reputation (also the USA) is lowest its even been. The world is mad at them. Anti Semitism around the world is on the rise. Also a lot more sympathy for Palestine and a two state solution is now being discussed which was out of the question.

Lastly it is a desperate attempt for Arab support on the Palestinian cause which was almost gone. Saudi Arabia siging the treaty with Israel would be the death of Palestine. These guys are nationalists, they see it from a nationalistic perspective not humanitarian.

So if 20.000 Palestinians need to be sacrificed for Palestine to still exist they will do it.

A humanitarian liberal cares about preservation of life firstly, not preservation of a "state".

Agree with that, probably it was a wise movement. But israel can't react weakly after that. They have to show that you can't attack them without consequences, but the Israeli society will become aware that he cannot abuse the Palestinians any more. That's why I think peace is possible after this.

For Palestinians, pride is worth more than life, for Israelis their security and permanence are worth more than anything else. The two will find a middle ground where they can understand each other, but if one of them shows weakness, the other will continue pushing. That is why this current situation is positive from a political point of view, although obviously negative if you are a patient in a hospital that is bombed.

 

[Karmadhi]

@Breakingthewall

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

pride is worth more than life

Not pride but land and their cause. It is the typical nationalism which you also find in Ukraine. They are willing to sacrifice all their youth as long as the country does not get occupied by Russia. Most wars in history are fought over land.

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

but if one of them shows weakness, the other will continue pushing.

That is true. Both their governments are extreme nationalists. Both got to go IMO.

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

That is why this current situation is positive from a political point of view

I feel like Israel is being  hurt way more politically because their appearances are a lot more important to them. Hamas was already a terrorist organization while Israel was not. Now both are being treated as such in the eyes of a lot of people. Although Israel from a humaniatrian perspective is not hurt a lot its reputation is taking a huge blow. Combine it with a rise in anti semitism around the world. And there was plenty of it even before this.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Breakingthewall]

27 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Not pride but land and their cause. It is the typical nationalism which you also find in Ukraine. They are willing to sacrifice all their youth as long as the country does not get occupied by Russia. Most wars in history are fought over land.

In that case I only see pride because Russia is not going to expel them from their land, it is only going to change the government for another at their convenience. The Ukrainians would continue living in their lands, and now they are devastated and they are exiled. It was stupid to push Russia that way. In the case of Palestine yes, it is different, they can be expelled, the cultural differences are complete, they are two different ethnicities. 

27 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

feel like Israel is being  hurt way more politically because their appearances are a lot more important to them

Agree, Israel loses this war, even if it ends Hamas. But they still have to do it until the end. Hamas sacrifices itself to achieve its objective.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[PurpleTree]

because of hamas and islamists i hope there won’t be a palestinian state

but because of non islamist palestinians and not affiliated with hamas people i hope there will be a palestinian state

 

[Twentyfirst]

8 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

because of hamas and islamists i hope there won’t be a palestinian state

but because of non islamist palestinians and not affiliated with hamas people i hope there will be a palestinian state

 

I remind you

Half of Gaza are children bro 

[PurpleTree]

I heard a turkish imam say

(i think the main imam in turkey)

“Jerusalem is muslim and it will alwayssssss be muslim“

crowd cheering 

[zazen]

@DawnC It's a complex situation with a long history of back and forths that will take a lot of time to delve into every detail of. I see wrongs on both sides and a just cause on both also, but for practical purposes we can either discuss the current situation going forward and the general root cause of the issue.

Labels often confine us to the actions associated with those labels more than they liberate us.  Labels are like psychic chains, nationalities are like psychic cages and literal interpretations of religion are like a psychic straitjacket. Each more confining, restricting and stubborn.

Both parties have mutually exclusive claims to the land, divinely legitimized by their religions. It's very hard to negotiate over land that is claimed holy by both sides, especially in the case of Jerusalem and the site of Al Aqsa. Wishful thinking would be for either or both of them to discard religion and give away parts of the land, but even non religious people have land disputes. What makes it harder is that it's a small piece of land with limited resources, and we expect both parties who feel entitled to this land to negotiate over this.  

The peace proposals never admitted full sovereignty to the Palestinians, the security apparatus from Israels side that they insisted on setting up in Palestine feels intrusive and could at any time creep towards authoritarian - as has been confirmed by whats happening in the West Bank. This nullifies a two state solution defined by Israel that wishes to 'occupy' the Palestinian side with some form of security to thwart any future terrorism - including the plans to handle Gaza indefinetley as Netenyahu is saying. They will not be governed peacefully by a regime that just bombarded their homes and killed their loved ones. 

If people are tamed  like animals - every movement, thought and action - they will lash out like such for the freedom to be human again. To add insult to injury, this is not only done in a random land but on their own home land which humiliates them further and only adds to an angered resistance that eventually erupts.

*Solutions*

Genocide by expulsion won't work as they will only plot their return from slightly further away (Egypt or Jordan), two state won't work because no side is willing to capitulate to what they feel entitlement to, one state governed by Israel won't work because they have shown to abuse their position of power by being complicit in settlement expansion and unequal rights. That leaves a one state solution ideally a secular state with equal rights for all or possibly a Lebanon style system where each side is given positions of power equally in governing the country. In practice, a quasi one state already exists with Israel controlling Gaza, and occupying the West Bank. Is it feasible though? Are both sides willing to work for this? I'm not sure after all thats happened, but if Jews are able to live within Europe and especially in Germany where Nazi's once industrially massacred them, then hopefully they can live together and put the past aside.

Edited November 9, 2023 by zazen

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Loveeee said:

Zionists gonna zionize 

But Leo should know better

Lets just put them in an artifical mental frame and then we don't have to think they are humen and moral like us. 

So from today on I will call the mexican people salsaians. Ohh how weird they are.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

5 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Lets just put them in an artifical mental frame and then we don't have to think they are humen and moral like us. 

So from today on I will call the mexican people salsaians.

Zionists aren't human. They are gods lol here to rule over us all. For our betterment of course

[Nivsch]

5 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Zionists aren't human. They are gods lol here to rule over us all. For our betterment of course

Shame on them. How dare them trying to deffend themselves from 7 huge arab countries.

[Twentyfirst]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Shame on them. How dare them trying to deffend themselves from 7 huge arab countries.

If they really are sent by god and the rest of us are animals like they claim...then why the worry? They will be fine. If god wrote that it is their land then it will be theres. It is the prophecy after all 

[Nivsch]

30 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

If they really are sent by god and the rest of us are animals like they claim...then why the worry? They will be fine. If god wrote that it is their land then it will be theres. It is the prophecy after all 

I have never heard even one Israeli in all the 36 years I live here who thinks what you just wrote. Sounds very crazy.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Sucuk Ekmek]

Interesting stuff

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231030-report-7-october-testimonies-strikes-major-blow-to-israeli-narrative/

[Hsinav]

29 minutes ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

Interesting stuff

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231030-report-7-october-testimonies-strikes-major-blow-to-israeli-narrative/

Lol this source seems to be very objective! Advertises hamas literature!

Edited November 9, 2023 by Hsinav

[Sucuk Ekmek]

20 minutes ago, Hsinav said:

Lol this source seems to be very objective! Advertises hamas literature!

I don't know if it's x or y literature Luckly I wasn't there.

[Sucuk Ekmek]

This is getting interesting Belgium wants sanctions against Israel. Looks like USA is loosing influence.

https://www.reuters.com/world/belgium-wants-sanctions-against-israel-gaza-bombings-deputy-pm-2023-11-08/

[hundreth]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

The peace proposals never admitted full sovereignty to the Palestinians, the security apparatus from Israels side that they insisted on setting up in Palestine feels intrusive and could at any time creep towards authoritarian - as has been confirmed by whats happening in the West Bank. This nullifies a two state solution defined by Israel that wishes to 'occupy' the Palestinian side with some form of security to thwart any future terrorism - including the plans to handle Gaza indefinetley as Netenyahu is saying. They will not be governed peacefully by a regime that just bombarded their homes and killed their loved ones. 

There are obvious reasons for Israelis to fear immediate "full sovereignty" to the Palestinians. 

Would you be opposed to a pathway to sovereignty with a specified timeline and conditions which build trust over time? Let's say for example 5 years. Recognizing Israel. Minimal attacks. Terrorists jailed. Etc. Obviously Israel would need to abide by a set of conditions specified by Palestinians as well.

[hundreth]

9 minutes ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

This is getting interesting Belgium wants sanctions against Israel. Looks like USA is loosing influence.

https://www.reuters.com/world/belgium-wants-sanctions-against-israel-gaza-bombings-deputy-pm-2023-11-08/

Quote

At the same time, she said, Belgium should increase funding for the International Criminal Court in The Hague to investigate the bombings while cutting money flows to Hamas.

“This is a terrorist organization. Terror costs money and there must be sanctions on the companies and people who provide Hamas with money," De Sutter said. With the war now entering its second month, UN officials and G7 nations stepped up appeals for a humanitarian pause in the hostilities to help alleviate the suffering in Gaza, where buildings have been flattened and basic supplies are running out. Palestinian officials say more than 10,000 people have been killed, 40% of them children.

Lol I have a feeling this help Israel more than harm it when all is said and done.