New War In Israel / Gaza

[DawnC]

Just now, Loveeee said:

@DawnC October 7 

What about it?

 

[lina]

12 hours ago, Hsinav said:

This loose standard is probably also a tactic, that sends a clear message to Hezbollah and other groups/states considering involvement.

I just find it strange how a lot of people here try to rationalize everything to justify the blatant destruction and slaughtering that is happening.  Literally all crimes one could think of could be "rationalized", does that make it okay to commit crimes? 

[Loveeee]

7 minutes ago, lina said:

I just find it strange how a lot of people here try to rationalize everything to justify the blatant destruction and slaughtering that is happening.  Literally all crimes one could think of could be "rationalized", does that make it okay to commit crimes? 

Apparently, only one way though 

[Sucuk Ekmek]

11 minutes ago, lina said:

I just find it strange how a lot of people here try to rationalize everything to justify the blatant destruction and slaughtering that is happening.  Literally all crimes one could think of could be "rationalized", does that make it okay to commit crimes? 

This is the mindset.

[DawnC]

This is good. It's my first time encountering this guy (Coleman), so I'm not familiar with his stance on other issues, but I think his perspective on this matter is very mature and nuanced.

 

[Hsinav]

54 minutes ago, lina said:

I just find it strange how a lot of people here try to rationalize everything to justify the blatant destruction and slaughtering that is happening.  Literally all crimes one could think of could be "rationalized", does that make it okay to commit crimes? 

I don,t justify or rationalize anything! It is very clear that this war has created enormous human suffering, it only needs to be said to those who are ignorant and do not really understand what is happening here.

[Karmadhi]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course the US is allied with Israel so there's going to be a double-standard there. Israel does not threaten US global interests like Russia.

Man USA is the bastion of fairness, democracy and human rights. Those are their core values. If USA does not treat everyone the same they are going against their core values which is a major red flag. The reason people are so mad at USA is precisely that. 

Russia does not have those values so when it does bad things people accept it because they are open about being the way they are.

From USA we expect more.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

10 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

“I Will Not Be Silenced”: Rep. Rashida Tlaib Calls for Gaza Ceasefire as House Votes to Censure Her”

This is a video of her emotional speech.

https://www.democracynow.org/2023/11/8/house_censures_rashida_tlaib_on_israel

“On Tuesday, the House of Representatives voted to censure Democratic Congressmember Rashida Tlaib, the only Palestinian American in Congress, for her criticism of Israel. The vote was 234 to 188, with 22 Democrats joining Republicans to censure Tlaib.” 

She was censored for just asking for a ceasefire.  So much for free speech.  This shows us the central problem.   Congress is owned by the Israeli lobby and they get a blank check.  There is no check on Israel’s power and they  are allowed to do terrible things and any criticism is censored.  
 

I choose to believe she is honest and authentic in her speech and emotions she showed in it, because it won't be fair to dismiss it.

But I think what needs to be understood is that without removing this extreme terror organization, nobody will be in a better place, not Israelis nor the palestines, and while she chooses to focus only on one side's problems, without thinking deeper on why Israel does what it does, she actually give this terror organization exactly what it wants and play into it's hands.

It does not mean she can't say for example that Israel's attacks need to be more surgical because maybe there is room to improve that.

But these simplistic moral preacheses only make us stay stuck and are like stick on the wheels that delay the arrival of the necessary change.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I choose to believe she is honest and authentic in her speech and emotions she showed in it, because it won't be fair to dismiss it.

But I think what needs to be understood is that without removing this extreme terror organization, nobody will be in a better place, not Israelis nor the palestines, and while she choose to focus only on one side's problems, without thinking deeper on why Israel does what it does, she actually give this terror organization exactly what it wants and play into hamas's hands.

It does not mean she can't say for example that Israel's attacks need to be more surgical because maybe there is a place to improve that.

But these simplistic moral preacheses only make us stay stuck and its like stick on the wheels that delays the arrival of the necessary change.

So you are saying that its safer for Palestinians if its just Israel and Palestine on the chessboard rather than having Israel, Palestine, and Hamas on the chessboard? So in what way would they be safer?

What is your definition of a terror organization?

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

So you are saying that its safer for Palestinians if its just Israel and Palestine on the chessboard rather than having Israel, Palestine, and Hamas on the chessboard? So in what way would they be safer?

What is your definition of a terror organization?

A Palestinian authority regime, with the help and a security co-operation with Israel OR with other forces is a healthy situation, like what happens today in the west bank while Israel and the palestinian authority work together to prevent hamas from growing there, which is a strong interest of both Israel and the palestinian authority.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, lina said:

I just find it strange how a lot of people here try to rationalize everything to justify the blatant destruction and slaughtering that is happening.  Literally all crimes one could think of could be "rationalized", does that make it okay to commit crimes? 

To say that is simplistic. Hamas rules in Gaza and has committed actions that amount to an unambiguous declaration of total war. They have gotten exactly that, war, and war is savage and horrible. War is a universal human constant, if you want to understand humans you have to understand war. The children are not to blame for this, but war respects no one. The reality is that if the war starts, it must be won, and other considerations take a backseat.

Israel, a country of 10 million inhabitants, lives surrounded by countries of hundreds of millions of inhabitants who want its destruction. It makes no difference if for you Israel should not exist. exists, and will fight to continue doing so, and to do so it will do whatever is necessary, like every entity that exists.

[Nivsch]

12 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

To say that is simplistic. Hamas rules in Gaza and has committed actions that amount to an unambiguous declaration of total war. They have gotten exactly that, war, and war is savage and horrible. War is a universal human constant, if you want to understand humans you have to understand war. The children are not to blame for this, but war respects no one. The reality is that if the war starts, it must be won, and other considerations take a backseat.

Israel, a country of 10 million inhabitants, lives surrounded by countries of hundreds of millions of inhabitants who want its destruction. It makes no difference if for you Israel should not exist. exists, and will fight to continue doing so, and to do so it will do whatever is necessary, like every entity that exists.

👍 I like how you summarized it.

I hope the hostages are also taken into account by the government as much as possible, because here in the news studios from how the people there and the commentators are speaking, I got the impression everyone in Israel understand that to bring back the hostages is a top priority and the war cannot be won without getting them back.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[zazen]

47 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

A Palestinian authority regime, with the help and a security co-operation with Israel OR with other forces is a healthy situation, like what happens today in the west bank while Israel and the palestinian authority work together to prevent hamas from growing there, which is a strong interest of both Israel and the palestinian authority.

It doesn't work because the Palestinian authority have held to the peace agreements since the Oslo accord and all they've got in the West Bank is increasing settlements and authoritarianism from Israel. Israel don't do anything to stop the settlements so they are complicit in them.

 

This is what gives more authority and support to Hamas because Palestinians see the Palestinian authority as having no back bone or ability to support the rights and just cause of the Palestinians. They are left with no choice.

 

Palestinians have tried all avenues. Proposals and deals were always unjust and didn't meet the basic requirements of the Palestinians (for example no control of their Jordan border for at least 15 years), they tried peaceful protest in 2018 with the march of return - IDF shot at disabled people, medics, journalists and children. What their left with is a violent resistance in the end.

 

The root cause of this whole issue is occupation and hindering their development even when they aren't ''fully'' occupied - everything is controlled to the point they aren't able to develop economically, socially etc. The excuse used to stop their development is the potential for terror, yet stopping their development causes resistance to arise in the ugliest form of terror.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by zazen

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, zazen said:

It doesn't work because the Palestinian authority have held to the peace agreements since the Oslo accord and all they've got in the West Bank is increasing settlements and authoritarianism from Israel. Israel don't do anything to stop the settlements so they are complicit in them.

 

This is what gives more authority and support to Hamas because Palestinians see the Palestinian authority as having no back bone or ability to support the rights and just cause of the Palestinians. They are left with no choice.

 

Palestinians have tried all avenues. Proposals and deals were always unjust and didn't meet the basic requirements of the Palestinians (for example no control of their Jordan border for at least 15 years), they tried peaceful protest in 2018 with the march of return - IDF shot at disabled people, medics, journalists and children. What their left with is a violent resistance in the end.

 

The root cause of this whole issue is occupation and hindering their development even when they aren't ''fully'' occupied everything is controlled to the point they aren't able to develop economically, socially etc.

 

Yeah exactly 

Israel keeps pushing and poking and pushing and poking and they are left with a confused look on their face "wHy DoEs peOpLE n0 L0vE uS?"

[Twentyfirst]

25 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

To say that is simplistic. Hamas rules in Gaza and has committed actions that amount to an unambiguous declaration of total war. They have gotten exactly that, war, and war is savage and horrible. War is a universal human constant, if you want to understand humans you have to understand war. The children are not to blame for this, but war respects no one. The reality is that if the war starts, it must be won, and other considerations take a backseat.

Israel, a country of 10 million inhabitants, lives surrounded by countries of hundreds of millions of inhabitants who want its destruction. It makes no difference if for you Israel should not exist. exists, and will fight to continue doing so, and to do so it will do whatever is necessary, like every entity that exists.

Hamas is allowed to do whatever they want. Any action is justified under occupation

Even the most precious and softest animal will bite when backed into a corner

[zazen]

The ridiculous thing about the situation is that people A (Brits) gave people B (Jews) another people C's (Palestinians) land. It's like me giving away money that isn't even mine. 

When the British empire de-colonised it usually was giving the local people its land back, but in this particular case, it gave the land to another group and hoped for the best.

This remark about why don't the many Arab states take the Palestinians in - why should they? Jordan is already a 1/3 Palestinian, Egypt has enough domestic pressure handling its own impoverished people with its limited infrastructure - and people expect to capitulate to Israel's demands and take their burden or wrong doings. Should the French go and live in Spain, or the Italians in Spain? Their European and similar after all? But that isn't the point, even among Arabs there are distinct cultures and peoples married to their geographies.

Why do other people suffer (Palestinians) for others sins. It wasn't the Arabs who heavily persecuted the Jews historically, it was the Europeans and at its climax the Nazi's committing the Holocaust. The Europeans taking Israels side completely with double standards is them ridding themselves of the guilt of their past atrocities against the Jews.

Most people aren't calling for the elimination of Israel - just the current form it takes in the way it persecutes the Palestinians - and to give them the rights and dignity on their own home land which they share.

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by zazen

[Loveeee]

Zionists gonna zionize 

But Leo should know better

[DawnC]

@zazen

We already know that we disagree on that, but I genuinely wonder: what's your view of the time before '48 regarding the Jewish perspective? Do you find it inconceivably wrong in your view? If so, Why? What would you do before '48 if you were responsible for the situation (as a UN outsider)? Would you advocate for separation? How do you perceive the 1948 war? How do you view the militant, violent course the Palestinians took in '47? And what, in your opinion, should have been the Jewish response to that?

And if you want to elaborate - How do you view the time period from '48 to '67? What are your thoughts on the peace proposals suggested by Israel since 67'? And what is your opinion on the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip? What do you believe would be a wise and reasonable move for Israel moving forward giving what we have seen so far? 

Edited November 9, 2023 by DawnC

[DawnC]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

Palestinians have tried all avenues. Proposals and deals were always unjust and didn't meet the basic requirements of the Palestinians (for example no control of their Jordan border for at least 15 years),

I think Olmert's and Barack's offers were more than fair, considering they had lost multiple wars and continued to insist on violent approaches. But in your opinion, what would constitute a fair offer?

1 hour ago, zazen said:

they tried peaceful protest in 2018 with the march of return - IDF shot at disabled people, medics, journalists and children. What their left with is a violent resistance in the end.

Those were not peaceful protests. They involved throwing stones, Molotov cocktails, and explosive charges (and rockets on civilian populations from time to time to spice things up). And even if they were peaceful, those marches originated from Gaza after Israel withdrew from the area. Do you believe that marching on the border of a sovereign state by the thousands is a peaceful move?

Edited November 9, 2023 by DawnC

[lina]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

To say that is simplistic. Hamas rules in Gaza and has committed actions that amount to an unambiguous declaration of total war. They have gotten exactly that, war, and war is savage and horrible. War is a universal human constant, if you want to understand humans you have to understand war. The children are not to blame for this, but war respects no one. The reality is that if the war starts, it must be won, and other considerations take a backseat.

Israel, a country of 10 million inhabitants, lives surrounded by countries of hundreds of millions of inhabitants who want its destruction. It makes no difference if for you Israel should not exist. exists, and will fight to continue doing so, and to do so it will do whatever is necessary, like every entity that exists.

Israel on the other hand has been actively eating up all Palestinian territories, isn't illegal occupation a reason to declare war? What do you suggest the Palestinians should do? do you expect them to just tie their hands and watch Israel taking their lands piece by piece? Sure, war is war and war is justifiable in some cases, but only in self-defense. Israel's is not entitled for this position, therefore, waging a war will never ever solve this problem. Even if they managed to exterminate Gaza, the reputation and image of this country and its citizens will be covered in blood for ages to come, I don't think this is a good for Israelis or Jews worldwide.