New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

15 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

Israel will do what the West wants it to do

And the West will do what public opinion wants it to do

And public opinion is shifting 

Shifting?

I dont understand what you mean here.

[DawnC]

57 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

They've been fighting ever since 

With violence. In '48, this might have been a smart approach because they were not much weaker than the Israelis. But it has consequences - they lost the war they initiated. Persisting with a violent strategy is not a wise course of action for the weaker side (especially when the stronger side offers a relatively fair deal). Their continued use of violence in their fight has brought them to this moment.

52 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

Israel will do what the West wants it to do

And the West will do what public opinion wants it to do

And public opinion is shifting 

Only to some extent. Israelis will not engage in something they believe poses a major danger to their survival, regardless of public opinion in Western countries. Actually, There is a strong sentiment in Israeli society that goes like 'We will do what we think is right even if people won't like us'.

And although public opinion may shift (I'm not entirely sure about that), strategic considerations remain. This holds greater importance in policy decisions.

Edited November 8, 2023 by DawnC

[hundreth]

34 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

Israel will do what the West wants it to do

And the West will do what public opinion wants it to do

And public opinion is shifting 

There are lines Israel will never cross despite Western pressure, which are leaving large security gaps. 

[Raze]

17 minutes ago, hundreth said:

There are lines Israel will never cross despite Western pressure, which are leaving large security gaps. 

Saying this after Oct 7 is hilarious, the large security gap is Israel’s own policies.

[Jodistrict]

“I Will Not Be Silenced”: Rep. Rashida Tlaib Calls for Gaza Ceasefire as House Votes to Censure Her”

This is a video of her emotional speech.

https://www.democracynow.org/2023/11/8/house_censures_rashida_tlaib_on_israel

“On Tuesday, the House of Representatives voted to censure Democratic Congressmember Rashida Tlaib, the only Palestinian American in Congress, for her criticism of Israel. The vote was 234 to 188, with 22 Democrats joining Republicans to censure Tlaib.” 

She was censored for just asking for a ceasefire.  So much for free speech.  This shows us the central problem.   Congress is owned by the Israeli lobby and they get a blank check.  There is no check on Israel’s power and they  are allowed to do terrible things and any criticism is censored.  
 

[Twentyfirst]

4 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

“I Will Not Be Silenced”: Rep. Rashida Tlaib Calls for Gaza Ceasefire as House Votes to Censure Her”

This is a video of her emotional speech.

https://www.democracynow.org/2023/11/8/house_censures_rashida_tlaib_on_israel

“On Tuesday, the House of Representatives voted to censure Democratic Congressmember Rashida Tlaib, the only Palestinian American in Congress, for her criticism of Israel. The vote was 234 to 188, with 22 Democrats joining Republicans to censure Tlaib.” 

She was censored for just asking for a ceasefire.  So much for free speech.  This shows us the central problem.   Congress is owned by the Israeli lobby and they get a blank check.  There is no check on Israel’s power and they  are allowed to do terrible things and any criticism is censored.  
 

Everyone knows congress and Israel are inseparable by some sketchy means. Don't wait for the news to tell you the truth. Know the truth 

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

9 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I think that in the field of blue armys Israel is quite confident in its superiority on the other armys in the middle east.

It's not a question of superiority, it's a question of whether you'd want to give someone that wants to kill you a knife. That would be stupid, even if you had a gun. That's why I don't see the Israeli government ever letting the Palestinians live in peace. It would give them an opportunity to build up into a proper problem.

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

9 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Shifting?

I dont understand what you mean here.

On the one hand, all the mainstream news outlets are pro-Israel. Ever since corona people have been going crazy and stopped trusting in western governments and media, so now you've got the people who will oppose anything the mainstream media says for the sake of being "different from the sheep". On the other hand you've got a surge of stage green, plus the internet which is allowing for instant communication about these issues and conversations like these to be had. There are more pro-Palestinian voices on the left than ever, freely communicating their opinion through the internet, across the globe.

Edited November 9, 2023 by DefinitelyNotARobot

[Loveeee]

9 hours ago, DawnC said:

With violence. In '48, this might have been a smart approach because they were not much weaker than the Israelis. But it has consequences - they lost the war they initiated. Persisting with a violent strategy is not a wise course of action for the weaker side (especially when the stronger side offers a relatively fair deal). Their continued use of violence in their fight has brought them to this moment.

Signed : the most moral army of the world

9 hours ago, DawnC said:

Only to some extent. Israelis will not engage in something they believe poses a major danger to their survival, regardless of public opinion in Western countries.

Israel is ultimately a Western outpost, and Western leaders will not engage in something they believe poses a major danger to their survival

Edited November 9, 2023 by Loveeee

[DawnC]

19 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

Signed  : the most moral army in the world 

Dealing with such life-threatening hostility as a nation is no picnic. Assess the morality as you wish, but note that what I wrote is not a commentary on morality. It addresses the nature of conflict and war strategy.

19 minutes ago, Loveeee said:

Israel is nothing but a Western outpost, and Western leaders will not engage in something they believe poses a major danger to their survival

Where does this notion of an outpost come from? This is not the situation at all. Israel shares Western values and receives support from the West, but it is definitely not 'nothing but a Western outpost'. Study the relationship between Israel and Western powers and it's history, you might be surprised.

 

[Loveeee]

@DawnC October 7 

[DawnC]

Just now, Loveeee said:

@DawnC October 7 

What about it?

 

[lina]

12 hours ago, Hsinav said:

This loose standard is probably also a tactic, that sends a clear message to Hezbollah and other groups/states considering involvement.

I just find it strange how a lot of people here try to rationalize everything to justify the blatant destruction and slaughtering that is happening.  Literally all crimes one could think of could be "rationalized", does that make it okay to commit crimes? 

[Loveeee]

7 minutes ago, lina said:

I just find it strange how a lot of people here try to rationalize everything to justify the blatant destruction and slaughtering that is happening.  Literally all crimes one could think of could be "rationalized", does that make it okay to commit crimes? 

Apparently, only one way though 

[Sucuk Ekmek]

11 minutes ago, lina said:

I just find it strange how a lot of people here try to rationalize everything to justify the blatant destruction and slaughtering that is happening.  Literally all crimes one could think of could be "rationalized", does that make it okay to commit crimes? 

This is the mindset.

[DawnC]

This is good. It's my first time encountering this guy (Coleman), so I'm not familiar with his stance on other issues, but I think his perspective on this matter is very mature and nuanced.

 

[Hsinav]

54 minutes ago, lina said:

I just find it strange how a lot of people here try to rationalize everything to justify the blatant destruction and slaughtering that is happening.  Literally all crimes one could think of could be "rationalized", does that make it okay to commit crimes? 

I don,t justify or rationalize anything! It is very clear that this war has created enormous human suffering, it only needs to be said to those who are ignorant and do not really understand what is happening here.

[Karmadhi]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course the US is allied with Israel so there's going to be a double-standard there. Israel does not threaten US global interests like Russia.

Man USA is the bastion of fairness, democracy and human rights. Those are their core values. If USA does not treat everyone the same they are going against their core values which is a major red flag. The reason people are so mad at USA is precisely that. 

Russia does not have those values so when it does bad things people accept it because they are open about being the way they are.

From USA we expect more.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

10 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

“I Will Not Be Silenced”: Rep. Rashida Tlaib Calls for Gaza Ceasefire as House Votes to Censure Her”

This is a video of her emotional speech.

https://www.democracynow.org/2023/11/8/house_censures_rashida_tlaib_on_israel

“On Tuesday, the House of Representatives voted to censure Democratic Congressmember Rashida Tlaib, the only Palestinian American in Congress, for her criticism of Israel. The vote was 234 to 188, with 22 Democrats joining Republicans to censure Tlaib.” 

She was censored for just asking for a ceasefire.  So much for free speech.  This shows us the central problem.   Congress is owned by the Israeli lobby and they get a blank check.  There is no check on Israel’s power and they  are allowed to do terrible things and any criticism is censored.  
 

I choose to believe she is honest and authentic in her speech and emotions she showed in it, because it won't be fair to dismiss it.

But I think what needs to be understood is that without removing this extreme terror organization, nobody will be in a better place, not Israelis nor the palestines, and while she chooses to focus only on one side's problems, without thinking deeper on why Israel does what it does, she actually give this terror organization exactly what it wants and play into it's hands.

It does not mean she can't say for example that Israel's attacks need to be more surgical because maybe there is room to improve that.

But these simplistic moral preacheses only make us stay stuck and are like stick on the wheels that delay the arrival of the necessary change.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I choose to believe she is honest and authentic in her speech and emotions she showed in it, because it won't be fair to dismiss it.

But I think what needs to be understood is that without removing this extreme terror organization, nobody will be in a better place, not Israelis nor the palestines, and while she choose to focus only on one side's problems, without thinking deeper on why Israel does what it does, she actually give this terror organization exactly what it wants and play into hamas's hands.

It does not mean she can't say for example that Israel's attacks need to be more surgical because maybe there is a place to improve that.

But these simplistic moral preacheses only make us stay stuck and its like stick on the wheels that delays the arrival of the necessary change.

So you are saying that its safer for Palestinians if its just Israel and Palestine on the chessboard rather than having Israel, Palestine, and Hamas on the chessboard? So in what way would they be safer?

What is your definition of a terror organization?