Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) @Vrubel Their biggest weapon is an oil embargo which they did in the past. Also gas. Qatar is already threatening that. EU already cut out gas from Russia, combining it with Arab oil and gaz embargo and it will not look good for them. Arab countries together control like 40% of all oil reserves in the world. No need to fire bullets, this could prove more effective. But I am not saying they will. @Leo Gura What do you think? Edited October 31, 2023 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Vrubel said: @Leo Gura That's utterly ridiculous. Yes, this war is brutal but there is also an understanding of why and who started it. Arab leadership also hates Hamas and wants them gone. The risk for escalation from Iran and Lebanon is really high, they are already fighting in low intensity. But Arab countries can't do shit and don't want to do shit. Their biggest weapon is breaking down relations, which they probably will start up again after the war. Turkey is an outrage. So is Iran. And the invasion hasn't even begun. The whole Muslim world will be genuinely outraged by the next year of brutal images from in Gaza. It will look more and more like a genocide, even if it technically isn't. The Arabs and Muslims in the region will see it that way. And the leaders in power will have a lot of pressure to act. Just try to imagine how bad the footage from Gaza will be after 3-5 months of no food, water, medicine, fuel. It's gonna look extremely bad, like Israel is starving out the whole population. When even moderate people see this they will turn against Israel. What is gonna happen to over 1,000,000 civilians in Gaza a year into this seige and blockade? They will be on the brink of death or madness. Even assuming Israel has no desire to do a genocide, in practice that's what is gonna happen if the invasion and blockage lasts for 3+ months. For Israel's own sake they need to care more about saving the Gaza civilians and give them supplies. Edited October 31, 2023 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) Turkey and Iran are the only Muslim players in the region with some actual teeth to fight. The gulf countries can only act through diplomatic means and possibly financial / energy - even that is messy for them as they have trillions worth of assets managed by Western funds who are sympathetic to Israel, that money could be frozen as happened with Russian money. Israel is not de-escalating and Bibi is saying a hard no to ceasefire - Hezbollah and Iran and to a lesser extent Turkey have given their red lines which are being crossed and now will have to act in order to not lose credibility / save face. Edited October 31, 2023 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: For Israel's own sake they need to care more about saving the Gaza civilians and give them supplies. Why is Israel so heartless towards Gaza civilians? A highly developed country should not act like this... Their war ethics seem so 20th Century. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: Why is Israel so heartless towards Gaza civilians? A highly developed country should not act like this... Their war ethics seem so 20th Century. That's the trap that terrorism lays. People stop thinking and go for knee-jerk reactivity. This war could easily spiral out of control and lead to many Israeli's dead. Yet it seems this is not being taken seriously enough by the Israelis. Just because you lost 1400 people does not mean it's a good idea to rush into losing another 10,000. If Israel stopped right now, it would still be seen as a strong response. Supposedly Israel is doing all this to eliminate all threat to its civilians in the long run. But destroying Gaza will not acheive that becauae of all the hatred it will spawn. At this rate Israeli civilians will not feel safe for the next 50 years. Edited October 31, 2023 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 @Leo Gura They have been clashing already in Northen Gaza and it does not seem too bad for them. I do not know if Hamas is luring them into a trap or not but so far their losses do not seem that high. They seem confident. However if Hesboullah and company also attacks it would be a different story of course. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: They have been clashing already in Northen Gaza and it does not seem too bad for them. That's only the tip of a year's long war. To actually achieve their stated goal Israeli troops will have to clear and hold every building in Gaza, and clear out every tunnel. The scale of that is insane. How many years will it take? There's no way this can be done in a few months. Edited October 31, 2023 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 @Leo Gura Do you think Hesboullah or other groups or countries will join in the war? If they combine Israel will be in trouble. Also a possible oil/gas embargo from Arab world to the West, I saw Qatar was threatining it already (they are their biggest gas supplier since they cut ties with russia). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: @Leo Gura Do you think Hesboullah or other groups or countries will join in the war? If they combine Israel will be in trouble. Hezbollah very likely if this seige goes on for months and years. Other countries less likely. It may become a nasty proxy war like in Ukraine, with various Muslim countries funding Hazbollah to do the fighting. Edited October 31, 2023 by Leo Gura You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 @Leo Gura I feel like it is way more effective for Arab countries to cut all oil/gas to the west and israel than do proxy wars. It would force the west into talks considering they also ditched russia when it comes to energy supplies. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: For Israel's own sake they need to care more about saving the Gaza civilians and give them supplies. They are keeping up the pressure to a maximum. But you already have reports of Israel turning the water back on and allowing more aid. American pressure also plays a big role here. 8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Hezbollah very likely if this seige goes on for months and years. If Hezbollah Joins, the war will take on a new dimension but it will also be an opportunity to cleanse Israel's border to no longer have savages on its border who can strike and massacre any moment Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 6 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: @Leo Gura I feel like it is way more effective for Arab countries to cut all oil/gas to the west and israel than do proxy wars. It would force the west into talks considering they also ditched russia when it comes to energy supplies. Seems unlikely Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 @Karmadhi The gulf have trillions worth of assets that could be seized by the West in retaliation. Also, the gulf aren't strong enough to take on Iran who they fear could turn hostile if they don't have security guarantees of the US. This is why Israel/Gaza is mostly Turkey and Irans fight to bear via Hezbollah and ancillary support from other Muslim countries via supplies, but never a direct boots on the ground confrontation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Vrubel said: If Hezbollah Joins, the war will take on a new dimension but it will also be an opportunity to cleanse Israel's border to no longer have savages on its border who can strike and massacre any moment You are right, hezbollah could do the same tragedy to Israelis citizens as hamas did, but now we can prevent it from happening if we eliminate their force in south lebanon near our border. Edited October 31, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 ''We're being told that Israel needs to kill civilians by the thousands to eliminate Hamas, because Hamas must be destroyed to achieve a lasting peace. Every part of this is transparently false. Firstly the premise that Hamas must be eliminated to achieve peace is fallacious; peace can be achieved by eliminating the abuses and righting the wrongs which gave rise to Hamas in the first place. There's no rational reason to believe Hamas would continue to exist in its current iteration or keep waging violent resistance if the theft and injustice from 1948 onward were rolled back, refugees had the right to return, apartheid abuses were ended, and people were no longer kept in a giant concentration camp where they are deprived of basic human needs. Secondly the premise that you can bomb people into accepting an abusive status quo is self-evidently absurd. Even if Israel kills every single member of Hamas, there will be hundreds of thousands of survivors of this onslaught who see the depravity of Israel and refuse to accept it. You think all these orphaned boys and all these men who saw their loved ones ripped apart by military explosives are just going to be cool with the status quo from here on out? Of course not. And Israel knows this, which is why its preferred solution is to kick all survivors of this onslaught out of Gaza and into refugee camps in the Sinai desert. It knows that nothing it's doing will actually work and it refuses to make the reparations that will work, so its only other option is the elimination of Gazans one way or the other. Ethnic cleansing and mass displacement is not "peace" by any stretch of the imagination, but it might allow Israel to keep its abusive status quo intact. Those are Israel's only real options for sustainable stability: either right all the wrongs which led to this, or go the opposite direction and inflict far more wrongs to answer the Palestinian question once and for all. It's pretty clear watching all this that Israel has opted for the latter.'' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) @zazen Exactly! Hamas and their barbarity is 1000% Israeli fault because of their ruthless policies in decades. Terrorists do not come out of thin air as Leo says. What Israel is doing in their current barbaric treatment of Palestinian civilians will cause another Hamas. Probably more ruthless. But they seem too stupid to understand this. They had a good chance to respond humanely to the brutal Hamas attack but they are hitting them back 10x harder. A big mistake. Edited October 31, 2023 by Karmadhi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 4 minutes ago, Karmadhi said: Terrorists do not come out of thin air as Leo says. So what about the terrorist that shot up that mosque in new zealand, or breivik in norway? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Karmadhi said: @zazen Exactly! Hamas and their barbarity is 1000% Israeli fault because of their ruthless policies in decades. Terrorists do not come out of thin air as Leo says. What Israel is doing in their current barbaric treatment of Palestinian civilians will cause another Hamas. Probably more ruthless. But they seem too stupid to understand this. They had a good chance to respond humanely to the brutal Hamas attack but they are hitting them back 10x harder. A big mistake. 1954 BEFORE any occupation. BEFORE any policy. Brutal terror attack on Israeli citizens in massada. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma'ale_Akrabim_massacre The terrorists came from JORDAN. an independent coutry. What we did wrong? What did Israeil did wrong? shame on israel. If there was couple of buses with 1200 citizens, so they could kill 1200 citizens even then. Edited October 31, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, PurpleTree said: So what about the terrorist that shot up that mosque in new zealand, or breivik in norway? New Zealand's and Norway's fault. Edited October 31, 2023 by Nivsch 🌻Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted October 31, 2023 4 minutes ago, Nivsch said: 1954 BEFORE any occupation. BEFORE any policy. Brutal terror attack on Israeli citizens in massada. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma'ale_Akrabim_massacre The terrorists came from JORDAN. an independent coutry. What we did wrong? What did Israeil did wrong? shame on israel. King David hotel bombing 1946 91 dead by zionists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
