New War In Israel / Gaza

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Scholar said:

That's easy to say for you, not living in the middle east, surrounded by states and people who want to eradicate your race.

But stealing more land is not going to help protect your people. It only makes matters worse.

Israeli stealing of land is not about self-defense, Zionists have a radical ideology which tells them that God gave that land to them. So even if Israel was not threatened from outside, right-wing Zionists would still push to grab all that land because they believe it belongs to them from the Bible.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Scholar said:

You forget the being surrounded by children who would kill them on the basis of their ethnicity if they had the opportunity.

Yes, that is a complicating factor. However Zionists would steal land even if that issue was pacified.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Husseinisdoingfine]

Young woman was out at a party when kidnapped by militants:

https://t.me/warmonitors/14697

[Scholar]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

But stealing more land is not going to help protect your people. It only makes matters worse.

Israeli stealing of land is not about self-defense, Zionists have a radical ideology which tells them that God gave that land to them. So even Israel was not threatened from outside, right-wing Zionists would still push to grab all that land because they believe it belongs to them.

The problem with what you are seeing here is that I think you are missing an essential aspect of societal evolution.

 

The way societies adapt and survive is through general moralistic attitudes and frameworks. So, to you, you think "Oh, Israel can be a strong nation defending itself from it's neighbours who want to destroy them, be at war with HAMAS who are hellbent on destroying them even if they stop settling, but at the same time they should not be so right wing that they will settle in ways that are unfair and go beyond their national security needs!".

But that's not how any of this works. You can't just have the best of all worlds, that requires stage yellow, as you should know. You are expecting way too much from them.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

⚡️#BREAKING Hamas publishes a video of them bombing the fence near the Gaza strip before moving in and capturing a number of IDF soldiers and their tank

https://t.me/warmonitors/14698

[StarStruck]

In Middle East good will is not appreciated. Only power politics will work. It is mostly SD red demographics so SD green policy won’t stick. We have seen this in Afghanistan and elsewhere. People in this thread are way too airy fairy. 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Scholar said:

So, to you, you think "Oh, Israel can be a strong nation defending itself from it's neighbours who want to destroy them, be at war with HAMAS who are hellbent on destroying them even if they stop settling, but at the same time they should not be so right wing that they will settle in ways that are unfair and go beyond their national security needs!".

Well, I'm not expecting them to do it. But I'm saying that if they wish to hold the moral high ground and get our sympathy, then they should focus on defense and not stealing land. If they steal land then all I'm saying is that they lose sympathy and funding from the international community.

They can behave however they want. But we get to choose who we support. They have no right to expect unconditional support. Support should be conditional on non-aggravating behavior.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@StarStruck

2 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

In Middle East good will is not appreciated. Only power politics will work. It is mostly SD red demographics so SD green policy won’t stick. We have seen this in Afghanistan and elsewhere. People in this thread are way too airy fairy. 

   Does this justify Zionists leading a two state party system, an ethnostate like Israel, into oppressing and mistreating Palestinians for 70 years?

[Sabth]

If the United States love Israel so much they can take Israel to their land/country and let the Palestinians lives in Palestine/the middle east. 

[Vrubel]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Edited: Yes, that (landstealing) is a complicating factor. However Zionists Psaesinians want to steal land kill regardless.

It goes both ways

 

Also Israel is only 8 miles wide and its most narrow point

Edited October 7, 2023 by Vrubel

[Scholar]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Well, I'm not expecting them to do it. But I'm saying that if they wish to hold the moral high ground and get our sympathy, then they should focus on defense and not stealing land. If they steal land then all I'm saying is that they lose sympathy from the international community.

HAMAS would be doing what it does even if Israel stopped all stealing of land, and in fact, even if it gave back much of the stolen land and granted palestinians equal rights.

 

They have their own stage-red/blue motivations. They genuinely want to eradicate Israel from the face of the planet, at this point it is a completely self-sustaining ideology.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Vrubel said:

It goes both ways

Like I said, it's a vicious strange loop.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Scholar said:

HAMAS would be doing what it does even if Israel stopped all stealing of land, and in fact, even if it gave back much of the stolen land and granted palestinians equal rights.

They have their own stage-red/blue motivations. They genuinely want to eradicate Israel from the face of the planet, at this point it is a completely self-sustaining ideology.

But even so, it doesn't justify land grabbing.

It is possible to defend your house without also stealing other people's houses.

Yes, Israel needs a strong defense. No problem there. They are capable of it and they would get international support for it.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@Sabth

5 minutes ago, Sabth said:

If the United States love Israel so much they can take Israel to their land/country and let the Palestinians lives in Palestine/the middle east. 

   But of course not! Because to Zionist Israeli, Israel is their holy land, so they justify by pursuing an ethnostate that oppresses and mistreats Palestinians until, HAMAS, funded by Iran and others nearby, becomes part of that ramification of their ethnocentric ways, so they'll continue the land grab until all of Palestinians are converted into Israel as second hand citizens or are driven out into Iran or other regions. They don't care of the immigration crisis. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Raze]

3 minutes ago, Scholar said:

HAMAS would be doing what it does even if Israel stopped all stealing of land, and in fact, even if it gave back much of the stolen land and granted palestinians equal rights.

1) And you know this how?

2) at that point even if they didn’t the Palestinians very well may stop supporting them, when countries end wars they kick out warmongers 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Raze

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Sabth said:

If the United States love Israel so much they can take Israel to their land/country and let the Palestinians lives in Palestine/the middle east. 

If Arabs love Palestine so much they can take it into their home countries and let the Israelis live in the middle east 

? works both ways see

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Sabth said:

If the United States love Israel so much they can take Israel to their land/country and let the Palestinians lives in Palestine/the middle east. 

The problem is that Israelis specifically want THAT land, not any other. Because their Bible idolizes it.

[Vrubel]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, I'm not expecting them to do it. But I'm saying that if they wish to hold the moral high ground and get our sympathy, then they should focus on defense and not stealing land. If they steal land then all I'm saying is that they lose sympathy and funding from the international community.

They can behave however they want. But we get to choose who we support. They have no right to expect unconditional support. Support should be conditional on non-aggravating behavior.

Sympathy does not mean that much when you're defending your land and family from savages. Also in this situation, Israel is uniquely positioned to strike out massively due to broad international sympathy much more than during "regular fights".

The thing with sympathy is that you must be weak to get it and Israel can't allow that. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Vrubel

[Scholar]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

But even so, it doesn't justify land grabbing.

It is possible to defend your house without also stealing other people's houses.

Sure, I just wouldn't be so sure about your approach.

Israel is at it's developmental stage, and I agree we should encourage fair treatment of palestinians. But you are suggesting the usage of a very blunt tool. Usually not being sensitive to the stage of other countries only leads to more suffering. Less support of Israel could mean more suffering for Israelis and Palestinians. So we have to be more mature than just project our moralistic ideals and then refuse to aid anyone who does not meet them.

[Raze]

Just now, Scholar said:

Sure, I just wouldn't be so sure about your approach.

Israel is at it's developmental stage, and I agree we should encourage fair treatment of palestinians. But you are suggesting the usage of a very blunt tool. Usually not being sensitive to the stage of other countries only leads to more suffering. Less support of Israel could mean more suffering for Israelis and Palestinians. So we have to be more mature than just project our moralistic ideals and then refuse to aid anyone who does not meet them.

The US’s own standards for giving aid is not to give it to countries engaging in war crimes or apartheid, which Israel is doing. You don’t have to stop giving aid, just tie it to Israel actually pursuing peace and de-escalation, which they are not doing.