Liberals being less mature than conservatives-Why so?

[Karmadhi]

Hello

Personally I consider myself relatively liberal, especially when it comes to topics like taxation, economy, socialism, multiculturalism etc.

I live in a very very liberal city in Western Europe which is quite diverse in both ideas and origins of  people.

Personally I also have many conservative friends, some quite religious and even though I often do not agree with their worldviews I tend to respect it and take it for what it is, not hating nor demonizing it. Leo's work and spiral dynamics has helped a lot with that (Thank you Leo  ).

However, I have noticed that Liberals, especially hardcore liberals tend to be extremely judgmental and harsh whenever they meet someone that does not have their liberal worldview. They will name call, judge, demonize and overall act very immaturely when someone thinks in a more conservative way than them.

I know a very liberal and smart guy that once was talking to a friend of mine who is somewhat religious. The topic of homosexuality came up and my religious friend tended to say he does not support it but they should just do them. The liberal guy immediately flipped, saying "If you do not support them openly then you are against them and that makes you a bad person". Also he got quite emotional (he is not homosexual himself). 

If liberals tend to be more mature, developed, higher consciousness then how is it they tend to act in such a childish emotional way.

I have had a lot of discussions with both hardcore liberals and hardcore conservatives and I have noticed that even though I tend to agree with liberals more often, when it comes to maturity in debates, conservatives tend to actually be more mature and grounded.

They name call less, get less emotional and are less likely to stop talking to you even if you heavily disagree with their worldview. Overall their attitude is more mature even if you do not agree with them on a content level.

Note: I always am talking about educated and relatively honest and good people here. All examples in my life involve such people since I met most in university.

 

[Leo Gura]

This is the Mean Green Meme as Wilber calls it.

Greens are intolerant of intolerance and bullying.

Nothing surprising about this. Green is not aware of all the lower stages. If it were, it would be Yellow.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Princess Arabia]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

However, I have noticed that Liberals, especially hardcore liberals tend to be extremely judgmental and harsh whenever they meet someone that does not have their liberal worldview. They will name call, judge, demonize and overall act very immaturely when someone thinks in a more conservative way than them.

And I could say the opposite also from my experience. I don't think this observation has to do with liberals/conservatives, but the individual and where they are in life, their life experiences and how they view the world. Both sides have the same traits you've described and I'm sure you're not saying one side does and the other doesn't, but to even make the distinction based on our personal experience, to me, is just not enough to come to conclusions about it. I personally find the opposite to be true, but like I said, that's just based on my experience. 

[Majed]

@Leo Gura i think green isn't construct or ego aware. 

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Greens are intolerant of intolerance and bullying

I am not talking about bullying or saying hateful things.

Even stuff like "Men are more logical and women are more emotional" will get you labeled as a sexist.

Or "Asians are quite hardworking" can get you labeled as a racist.

Like these petty things where they take something neutral and make it seem like it is so bad.

Of course if you say hateful stuff and insult others then it makes sense.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

I am not talking about bullying or saying hateful things.

Even stuff like "Men are more logical and women are more emotional" will get you labeled as a sexist.

Or "Asians are quite hardworking" can get you labeled as a racist.

Like these petty things where they take something neutral and make it seem like it is so bad.

Of course if you say hateful stuff and insult others then it makes sense.

You are not seeing their motivations deeply enough.

Greens are overly-sensitive to all kinds of small things which they perceive as leading to intollerance and bullying.

When someone says they don't support homosexuality Green sees that as a slippery slope for homophobia.

Yes, "Asians are hardworking" is objectionable because with that one usually also comes, "Blacks are low IQ criminals".

What you today consider "petty things" lead to the deaths of many gay and black people just 50 years ago.

Bullying and intolerance is a not just individual bad actors, it's a culture. Which is Green's purpose to fight.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Bobby_2021]

Liberals in general have less exposure to the ground reality which most people live in. They live in seclusion from the rest of the society. 

[Reignforest]

@Bobby_2021 exactly. Leo describes this well in his spiral dynamics series. Many green people are born into green. And cannot ascend into yellow until they fully integrate the lower stages.

[LSD-Rumi]

Green cannot see the other half of the cup, they may sympathize with a homless and treat him well , not long before he robs them. But I think green people get more mature as they become older.

Edited September 28, 2023 by LSD-Rumi

[Jacob Morres]

@Leo Gura ?

[DocWatts]

Another aspect to this is what Ken Wilber and others have called the 'performative contradiction' of the Green-meme. Originally this was a critique of postmodernism specifically, but it one doesn't have to stretch it too much to appreciate its validity for how cultural relativism is sometimes practiced at Green.

Basically the 'contradiction' comes from a Green allergy to hierarchical qualitative distinctions (ie the idea that some expressions of culture can said to be 'better' or 'worse' than others). To list an admittedly extreme example, this can take the form of the Green-meme painting western critiques of how women and LGBTQ people are treated in middle eastern countries as a form of 'Islamaphobia' or even 'neo-colonialism'.

Additionally, this also leads to a type of developmental blindness, due to a suspicion of developmental models such as Spiral Dynamics. Or more generally, an aversion to grand narratives that assert that some people or cultures are more 'developed' than another.

The intentions behind this are good, as these type of hierarchial distinctions have very often led to the creation of oppressive power hierarchies around things like race, religion, and gender (such as 'the white man's burden thar Europe used as a moral justification of colonialism, under the guise of 'bringing civilization' to the areas they were looting).

The 'contradiction' comes from denying that qualitative distinctions between different types of cultural practices exist while at the same time clearly advocating for thier own egalitarian values (that they clearly think are superior to the dominator hierarchies they rally against - and rightly so!). It's 'performative' in the sense that the contradiction is obfuscated, never adequately acknowledged or addressed.

Edited October 4, 2023 by DocWatts

[Hatfort]

To the topic title and question. I don't think so, look at who conservatives elect, they look like spoiled teenagers who can't take a no for an answer. Marjory Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Kari Lake, George Anthony Devolder Santos, Matt Gaetz, they almost elected this funny Herschel Walker, and what to say about Donald Trump. They are a reflection of their voters, the conservative people today. The Democrats are being the adults in the room right now.

About green stage people. Yeah, they should be more aware that people being intolerant is a lower stage and maybe handle it some other way, but then they'd be getting into yellow. That being said, sometimes I find it fine intolerants taste their own medicine, otherwise, they don't learn. They need first-hand experience of hardship.

[Jacob Morres]

@Bobby_2021 that's a great point, conservatives tend to have a lot of exposure to society in general. Esp since rural areas, suburbs and the Bible belt tend to just generally be exposed to different types of people and are def not secluded 

(Sarcasm) one of the big reasons conservatives are conservatives are due to a lack of exposure to anyone else 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Jacob Morres

[Danioover9000]

@Hatfort

14 hours ago, Hatfort said:

To the topic title and question. I don't think so, look at who conservatives elect, they look like spoiled teenagers who can't take a no for an answer. Marjory Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Kari Lake, George Anthony Devolder Santos, Matt Gaetz, they almost elected this funny Herschel Walker, and what to say about Donald Trump. They are a reflection of their voters, the conservative people today. The Democrats are being the adults in the room right now.

About green stage people. Yeah, they should be more aware that people being intolerant is a lower stage and maybe handle it some other way, but then they'd be getting into yellow. That being said, sometimes I find it fine intolerants taste their own medicine, otherwise, they don't learn. They need first-hand experience of hardship.

   The reason why is because the internet and online communities and cultures, including big tech companies have mostly ruined the brains of Gen M and Z, especially these online variations of those political ideologies, with their internet speak. For example, look at when a tech company made Tik Tok, the most addictive online social media site due to the infinite scroll, algorithms that hyper curate content to user's biases creating more echo chambers that reinforce bad ideologies, auto beautify profile pictures which leads to more narcissism and false self image issues. Most social media platforms have in their format a way to hijack the limbic system in the brain to get you hooked and addicted, as tech companies focus on audience attraction and retention regardless of brain rot and mental health issues later on, and due to click bait culture and algorithms pushing shorts and low brow sound bits of some long format video, the mass theft and plagiarism of the react community stealing impressions whilst squeezing the small content creators in YouTube, it has overall made a toxic environment for the information ecology of people's minds. Look at Twitch, streaming community and social media platforms like Twitch, encouraging para socialization for profit and gain, because the persona of the streamer, and how they charm and use charisma, poisons the minds of the viewers and chatters, just look at social media online political debates, a bunch of silly immature takes and behaviors that are perversely incentivized by big tech and online celebrities in their online spaces to do those behaviors of bad faith communications and uncharitable takes, which is upregulated and valued more for views and drama, and the good faith communications devalued more because less eyeballs. We have a sociopathic streamer doing the podcast runs on YouTube, a very healthy society would not platform such a character that uses open relationships to create drama, furthering degenerate views of relationships.

   Mean Green memes by Ken Wilbur is a thing when stage green is excessive, and does not integrate the finer and good qualities of the lower stages.

   

[Danioover9000]

@Hatfort  Compare and contrast these two videos talking about sexuality and dating, from a conservative/religious point of view versus a neo-liberal/progressive point of view:

and

   Looks and feels like two different approaches to talking about sex and dating, and even personal development right? Yet the first video has too much perverse incentives to bad faith argue each other's points, with little good faith exchange of ideas between a more traditional/conservative frame of dating and sex and premarital sex and marriages, which biases for monogamous relationships, versus the more modern, more stage orange individualist, more transactional relationship, more PUA, more liberal minded frame of dating and sex and marriages, with neither side giving a deep and broad enough context for why dating and sex exists and why marriages exists, just only interested in undermining for views.

[sholomar]

Stage greens don't know how to deal with lower spiral Dynamics stages very well, which is why they are still tier 1. This is why I think Trump made a more effective leader and brought upon a period of World Peace and that his policies were average to slightly above average compared to biden's. When we treat stage red and blue countries and individuals with pacifism you see the result they walk all over you and become aggressive. It's human nature. Stage greens themselves become angry when they see perceived injustices they're just at a different albeit higher level. All tier one stages tend to be polarized amongst one another.

What we need are integrated stage yellows who know how to deal with each country (and each individual) at their respective spiral Dynamic stage and know how to use Force like a Precision Tool when it's needed and necessary. This isn't the Democrat Party and I think they're messing the country up to be quite frank. We don't want authoritarian dictatorships usurping democracies on the global scale of power and dominance. Criminals are running rampant because leftists don't think you should punish non-violent offenses done by spiral Dynamics stage red and blue individuals, and even some semi violent offences are met with no bail, signature bonds, and probation.

You need to use pavlonian conditioning against people to get them to behave in a moral and proper manner to keep a civilized and stable society and geopolitical landscape. You also need to give the impression that this is the way you're going to respond through your words and actions. Trumps lower spiral dynamics stage worked to his advantage to a degree. I lean conservative on some issues because of human nature. Humans are not ready for stage green on a global scale. Not even close. You have to look at the world from their perspective, not your perspective, when dealing with them. Hard to do? Perhaps. That's why stage yellows are rare.

Edited October 10, 2023 by sholomar