Ralston Gives A Clear Answer To Metaphysical Love Question

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

certain orbital escape velocity much be reached to transcend Buddhism + Nonduality + enlightenment. Which is why you don't see many people escaping it.

I don't say that you are wrong, just you could explain what is wrong, or what should be transcended in enlightenment, not just saying: enlightenment is stupid. What is enlightenment according you? Why is limited? 

[Water by the River]

4 minutes ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

 Why do you hold the Absolute, as in no manifestion/cessation type, superior to the Absolute as the Infinite Singularity?

I agree on all you write here.

Why I emphasize the way I do? Because to realize the Absolute (which is always here) you have to understand and realize what is permanent. And all manifestation can be switched off, and the Absolute is still here. All of the stuff Leo talks about can be switched off, and the Absolute is still perfectly fine, like nothing ever happpened.

Manifestation/form is also Truth, and has the Absolute as its essence, is contained in it. The ring made of gold. But also for most beings also contains ignorance-arising of a mistaken identity, a separate-self. It is easier to identify these illusion-arisings (which are of the manifested side) when it becomes clear what is the permanent/timeless/always here Absolute.

Saying the Absolute is the manifest is true, but it contains the manifest, expresses itself through the manifest. But normally with that also all ignorance/illusion and all the stuff that prevents Enlightenment, because its very subtle false identity. And that is the dangerous thing with equating the manifest side with the Absolute, because there is also the permanent always here core of it. That easily gets overlooked then, but is the essence of it.

Technically and philosophically, the Absolute is that which is always the case, omnipresent, the only Reality there is without a second. And unchanging. And funnily its the core of every being, including you. And that doesn't change. Your "cloths" change (realms you manifest, including your current separate-self/body/mind), but you not.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I don't say that you are wrong, just you could explain what is wrong, or what should be transcended in enlightenment, not just saying: enlightenment is stupid. What is enlightenment according you? Why is limited? 

I gave a very simple point to you in this thread, which was the whole point of the thread -- which has since been lost in a flurry of outrage.

You guys regard Peter Ralston as Enlightened. He is one of yours. And yet he does not have a proper explanation of metaphysical LOVE.

How can that be?

Either you must deny LOVE, or you must deny that Enlightenment is it.

Yet you gaslight me about how Enlightenment is Final. There's nothing Final about it. It's barely the beginning.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Water by the River]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And you come here and gaslight me about it.

Stand in your Truth. If your Truth is self-evident, you can't be gaslit about it. Absolute Truth is always right here right now self-evident for an enlightened being.

And for the annoying part of those who don't agree: Practice the love you proclaim as Absolute.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

you can't be gaslit about it.

You say that because you have not done the work to extract all human spiritual horseshit you have spent the last 10 years filling your skull with.

I'm not doing this for you. I doing this for me, so I could eradicate your ignorance from my mind. I don't care if you continue to live in it. I will live in a different reality from you. And to do that I must stop taking anything you say seriously. Don't take it personally. It's not you, it's every human idea on this planet.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Water by the River]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, it will be hard to maintain a job, because any job you can think of is useless.

That is the toxic disfunctional fallout of a path addicted to experience and Awakening n+1. Health= functional fit many levels of exchange of this reality (food, emotional, economic, mental, spiritual and so on).

 

[Breakingthewall]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys regard Peter Ralston as Enlightened. He is one of yours. And yet he does not have a proper explanation of metaphysical LOVE.

I don't know what is in Ralston mind, For me enlightenment is to completely break form, limitation, and become unlimited, and then realize the true nature of existence. There is no word that defines this, but if you want to call it metaphysical love, ok. But it is obvious that if you completely transcend the form, what remains is not something explainable or conceptualizable, it is total infinity. the true nature of existence. that is enlightenment. After this, if you want to explore the possibilities of existence, it is something absolutely interesting, but awakening, with capital letters or not, is one: infinite. You cannot say that I am deceived because I do not say anything definite that could be a deception, it is an obvious realization, something that is always there, what the absence of limits is. 

[Water by the River]

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You say that because you have not done the work to extract all human spiritual horseshit you have spent the last 10 years filling your skull with.

I'm not doing this for you. I doing this for me, so I could eradicate your ignorance from my mind. I don't care if you continue to live in it. I will live in a different reality from you. And to do that I must stop taking anything you say seriously. Don't take it personally. It's not you, it's everything human on this planet.

For the first part: I am pretty proficient in cutting off each and any concept (including "human spiritual horseshit") in my mindstream until NOTHING remains. Or everything, in a nondual, non-conceptual and vividly clear, empty and blissfull mindstream. Which feels wonderful btw.

And I say that because Absolute Truth allows one nice thing: To stand in it, even if the whole world would speak against it. It is self-evident Absolute Truth. Always right here, right now. Actual experience and non-conceptual realization vs. human spiritual horseshit. Not a concept, but an actual Realization.

For the second part: That is a rationalization to go the easy path. I challenge you to practice the Love you preach as Absolute, and endure other perspectives without lashing out. 

And a recommendation: As long as you are alive on this planet (and you probably won't go anywhere else before you die), it would be a smart choice to at least keep one foot in this reality here and not despise it and its two-legged-inhabitants. The majority of them won't grow up spiritually in our lifetime, so its a smart choice to accept that fact in a mature & loving way.  For ones own health & wellbeing for example, and to not have an autoimmune-allergy against the environment/ones own Reality(!) one lives in and manifests.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Water by the River

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

Agree. But there are states where the light is just switched off. No manifestation AT ALL, including love. As soon as manifestation arises again, its back.

The only reason I emphasize getting every concept/idea/whatever away from the Absolute is: all of that prevents its realization. You have to throw away/cut off each and every (subtle) concept/feeling/whatever to realize it. Including all you thought you were before.

Then you have a chance of realizing it, in a non-conceptual, empty and impersonal and nondual/infinite state free of all the delusion of dual/conceptual thinking. You have to be IT. And IT is infinite, impersonal, silent, groundless. And Reality itself. And from IT radiates love. But that is already form/manifestation.

Splendid explanation.

[Inliytened1]

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Lately I have stopped brushing my teeth, because I just don't care.

You may wanna rethink that ?  gonna cost you a lot more suffering later if you stop.

[Bufo Alvarius]

37 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Because to realize the Absolute (which is always here) you have to understand and realize what is permanent. And all manifestation can be switched off, and the Absolute is still here. All of the stuff Leo talks about can be switched off, and the Absolute is still perfectly fine, like nothing ever happpened.

But even that 'switched off manifestation' is not permanent, because it never stays that way, the infinite Singularity always emerges back (or has never actually left). Like Bashar says, everything changes, except for the fact that everything changes. 

@Water by the River Out of curiosity, what is your realization on Metaphysical Love? If I understand you correctly, you view that as something that can be switched off / something that is not permanent, not fundamental to reality?

[Bazooka Jesus]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Lately I have stopped brushing my teeth, because I just don't care.

Mmmm, how admirable. LOL

Btw, how is that "trying to be a better human" side project of yours going? Making any progress in that department?

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

 

 When I explore consciousness I am in a new, higher reality which renders all human spiritual ideas as pure childish nonsense unworthy of thinking about. It's not just a different reality, it's a higher reality, more real than human reality. Human reality is joke relative to higher reality. This includes all your enlightenments.

 

No!  It's more imagination!  If you aren't conscious right now that I am imaginary,  and you are talking to yourself- then you aren't awake.   You have no material existence and you explore nothing but what I imagine you are exploring!  You have no material existence whatsoever- you're simply a character in my dream.   Ralston is another character, and so on.  That's the highest Truth there is - but you can go on fooling yourself forever with all of this entertaining imagination that keeps you running away from the highest Truth that you are alone.  You don't want to be alone, so you keep searching for something to tell you that you aren't.  But you always will be.  When you come to grips with that- that will be infinite Love ❤️ 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Bazooka Jesus]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Why not explain yourself thoroughly and transparently at once? Or is there really nothing to explain?

Leo: "Stop saying that the truth cannot be expressed!! The truth can ABSOLUTELY be put into words!!!"

Also Leo: "Sorry bro, dunno how to explain it."

As I have said before, how anyone manages to take him seriously at this point is beyond me. But to each their own, I guess.

[Water by the River]

2 hours ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

But even that 'switched off manifestation' is not permanent, because it never stays that way, the infinite Singularity always emerges back (or has never actually left). Like Bashar says, everything changes, except for the fact that everything changes. 

Sure, but it clearly shows you what is Absolute (or fundamental, or Reality itself) and what is just a temporary arising within it (as it of course, but still within it).

It clearly shows (or makes one realize and understand) which is eternal, omnipresent, timeless, changeless, infinite. And that is how you can define Reality, or God.

In other words: It shows what is always there, and can not not be there. Which funnily is also the True You.

2 hours ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

 

@Water by the River Out of curiosity, what is your realization on Metaphysical Love? If I understand you correctly, you view that as something that can be switched off / something that is not permanent, not fundamental to reality?

Metaphysical love: Lets do a thought experiment like the following:

When nothing arising, you don't know that you exist. Deep Sleep. Yet you are. You reappear every morning. 

So even a very subtle (self-)consciousness is an arising IN Reality. That becomes very clear once having had these states in meditation. So when anything at all, however subtle arises, a "you", a consciousness "of" can appear. Or just the colour red for example, without self-consciousness (in an animal for example). But it arises and is being "awared".

That is manifestation/arising. And as soon as there is  red (or any other arising for that matter), there is also underlying fundamental love. Because the reality in which it arises, that which arises, and the Awareness of it is a Unity, and love is the opposite of division/duality. It is the intuition, experience, and pull back of/from this underlying nondual Unity. The Totality pulls all beings with that love back home to their True Being.

And that is why love is as fundamental as any other of the first manifestations occuring in the Infinite (like space, time, first forms/archetypes of manifestation).

How that works in practice: Feel in certain empty awakened states into an appearance, and use something like the Koan "what is this really". The answer will be something like you & light of Reality & love.

But that is not the fundamental Infinite Absolute. The Infinite is really fully infinite or empty, or not definable. It is YOU. And YOU can't "see" YOU as an object. The eye can't see itself. Everything you see is illusion-arising-manifestation IN True You. At that point you have fully realized how "you" (small y) can be fully switched off in deep sleep and yet True You (capital y) still be there as the Absolute Infinite.

That realization is a beyond a mere conceptual-insight, and can't be fully explained. It is a realization which can only be had in infinite boundless nondual mere appearance awakened states, and then asking what is "beyond" that, or what is True Me. You have to BE it, and then ask yourself what IS it. And then "you" or It can realise itself, but only out of this certain states. But that you is not a thought. That you already has to be the Totality in a nondual way.

And to get to these states, you need a lot of training in getting an empty mindstream and cutting off each and any blabla concept in the mindstream.

Psychedelics get you to these nondual states, but its not empty/impersonal enough to realize what is "beyond" that. And then one confuses the Totality of Manifestation with the Infinite Absolute Unchanging Timeless beyond. The real realization is a very clear and simple answer, a direct realization, without any FURTHER or beyond or n+1. And it is not a fundamental reductionistic baseline, because it is the Realization of Reality itself, and of realizing the essence of every arising in it. General Omniscience so to say. Not the content of all realms, but the essence/suchness/substance of every possible manifestation. In other words, of anything possible at all. That is why its final, and why Osaid said that once the Ultimate Truth is realized, its done. Everything else is just content/manifestation/realms: Fun to explore, but why grasp & suffer doing it? God is doing the evaluation of its endless potential anyway, and will never(!) run out of worlds/realms to explore (remember, its infinite). And God is doing a better job at it with more grace than currently Leo, who does this clearly in a grasping and suffering way. But declaring that project higher than realizing Ultimate Truth. A perfect recipe for suffering: Declaring/confusing the lower (Manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness) with the higher (Absolute, totally empty and infinite at the same time, without opposite).

Ok, back to love:

So love is so fundamental that as soon as any manifestation arises it is there. One could say that the Absolute is love. But on the other side it is not, since the Absolute can be without any arising. So its a question of what is more fundamental. And since the realization of this Absolute is the all deciding "point", a pointer saying the Absolute is love is rejected as a non-efficient pointer by most enlightened persons. Yet, it is a very difficult topic, because one could validly say that the Absolute is maybe not love, but its first manifestation is love, the essence of any manifestation is love, the essence of any possible world is love, love is what got the whole game going and what makes the Universe evolve back to its source, grow in complexity so that it can realize its own Unity in the form of enlightened beings.

And in practical daily life, as we have heard thousands of times before, all that matters is love. That is true! The only remark is: To fully love all the time, the separate-self-contraction has to be fully transcended, since it keeps the game going with unloving periods, and its "projects" chasing experiences to get back the love/bliss.

Selling Water by the River

 

PS: And the realization that you can not not be there, even if unaware in Deep Sleep: That is really coming home, You can NEVER loose yourself, and never did. The world becomes home, all separate-self-contractions that were the essence of "un-love" or "masked" the natural and inherent flow of love stop, the underlying infinite Unity becomes apparent, and the mindstream becomes love & bliss. For some, even divine/celestial perception showing how universal consciousness rolls out reality starts, like Harri Aalto or David Buckland for example. That is where Leo thinks he is the only one exploring these realms with psychedelics, but that is wrong. Life then becomes the celebration that its meant to be. And that is not the "end" of Enlightenment, but just the start of all which comes after, this life and the following ones. Each being expresses this realization differently, since individuality as separation gets lost, and not individuality as being/mindstream. Each one will express his/her enlightened love differently.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Water by the River

[Osaid]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Everything and anything that you experience is Truth. So are disagreeing with me over nothing.

I speak of CONSCIOUSNESS because it is a much more sophisticated and complex thing than realizing what Truth is. Precisely because Truth is just anything you experience. And comprehending CONSCIOUSNESS is not that easy! You need a massive shift in consciousness to actually see what it is. Your realization of Truth is not doing that job.

Truth is not JUST anything you experience. This is a human notion of truth. Humans use the word "truth" as if they are just pointing to exactly what exists, and this is supported on a metaphysical level and can be realized in all states, but that would again just be a small part of those states, and so it is reductionist as you say. But this is not the Truth of reality and the universe which ALSO of course exists in all states. I am talking about that, not some neutral secluded idea of "If you are experiencing it right now it is truth."

I believe you had an awakening which showed you that the word "truth" points to exactly what exists, and this is true, but that word itself is a human invention. Some human thought "Let's come up with a word that points towards existence", and then basically no one ever knew that it was possible to realize this on a metaphysical level. Realizing that the very fact of something existing is equal to truth is actually itself just one specific insight about the bigger Truth which is not a human invention and it is just enlightenment.

On that note, anytime you realize a small or specific aspect of truth, this is mostly a relative human invention, because you have literally partitioned truth with your memory/imagination. Reality does not exist as partitioned truths. Again, reality is one. It's all pointing to one whole thing, like the elephant and the blind men.

You are commiting a similar fallacy to scientists who fixate on the content and degrees of their experiences as if it is something fundamental related to Truth or reality as a whole.

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

1) I don't claim degrees of Truth. You made that up.

You do. You seem to have separated "Truth" from "degrees of consciousness" as if Truth is some specific aspect of a bunch of other states or something of the sort, but this is not the case. But I don't think we have the same definition of Truth, which makes sense, since you don't even seem to see enlightenment as a possibility anymore.

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's fine, but there is way more to consciousness beyond all that.

It seems you have somehow convinced yourself otherwise, but if it is truly beyond your current experience, that means it is beyond the Truth and reality of the current experience, and thus it cannot be Truth, unless you concede to there being multiple truths or something of the sort. But I believe you have rationalized your perception of "multiple truths" as "degrees of consciousness", but this is not what is happening, you are really perceiving multiple truths and you think that reality is capable of creating an infinite amount of truths, and then you would probably articulate this as God "understanding itself forever."

If you want to stick to this distinction of Truth and degrees of consciousness, I want to make it clear that the degrees of consciousness have nothing to do with Truth, they are just ephemeral states which existentially do not exist in your experience anymore. If you have to access memory or imagination to perceive it, it's not the case. This is not to discount the experience, it's just not Truth or enlightenment.

Truth is not a state, a degree of consciousness, a higher understanding, or anything like that. It is meta to all of those dualistic notions. It's one thing that perfectly pervades itself across all experience. Once you see it, you don't unsee it again. And it is NOT a specific aspect or part of experience, it just always COMPLETES any single experience. It couldn't be any other way. It is a perfect experiential understanding of experience ALWAYS.

Quote

There is absolutely no way you could receive all the insight I've had into Consciousness is a single event, even a single day

Anything intellectual, no. Anything that is true metaphysically, yes. Of course it is instantly accessible from any moment. How could it be another way?

Edited September 15, 2023 by Osaid

[DLH]

"love is the force out of which being comes"
"Seth" Chapter 5: Session 771, April 14, 1976

"Love is a biological as well as a spiritual characteristic. Basically, love and creativity are synonymous. Love exists without an object. It is the impetus by which all being becomes manifest."
"Seth" Chapter 9: Session 792, January 24, 1977

"They have told you to love God, but rarely taught you to experience the gods in yourselves."
"Seth" Section 1: Session 687 March 4, 1974

"Value fulfillment itself is most difficult to describe, for it combines (pause) the nature of a loving presence—a presence with the innate knowledge of its own divine complexity—with a creative ability of infinite proportions that seeks to bring to fulfillment even the slightest, most distant portion of its own inverted complexity. Translated into simpler terms, each portion of energy is endowed with an inbuilt reach of creativity that seeks to fulfill its own potentials in all possible variations—and in such a way that such a development also furthers the creative potentials of each other portion of reality"
"Seth" Chapter 2: Session 884, October 3, 1979

"Yet each smallest portion of consciousness can uniquely create, bring into being, eccentric versions of All That Is, that in certain terms All That Is, without that separation, could not otherwise create. The loving support, the loving encouragement of the slightest probable consciousness and manifestation—that is the intent of All That Is."
"Seth" Chapter 2: Session 884, October 3, 1979

"Physically speaking, man’s “purpose” is to help enrich the quality of existence in all of its dimensions. Spiritually speaking, his “purpose” is to understand the qualities of love and creativity, to intellectually and psychically understand the sources of his being, and to lovingly create other dimensions of reality of which he is presently unaware."
"Seth" Chapter 5: Session 901, February 18, 1980

Just a few quotes from the "Seth Material" 

 

 

[Osaid]

6 hours ago, OBEler said:

Leo reached awakenings no one of you have ever reached.

Right, nothing to do with Truth though. God is not gatekeeping Truth behind some alien experience, believe it or not

Edited September 15, 2023 by Osaid

[Osaid]

5 hours ago, Bufo Alvarius said:

Consciousness is both, it is one Truth always accessible, and it also comes in degrees of intensity. 

Truth doesn't come in degrees because that implies duality.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Osaid

[nhoktinvt]

this is relatively irrelevant but man i miss the time where people are more of a bro than of an enemy