StarStruck

Solipsism and no self

122 posts in this topic

32 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Mmmmmm... as always, your pointers are much more subtle and eloquent than my own verbal diarrhea, good sir.

Anyway, I am still more AWAKE. ^_^

@Breakingthewall

There is a fine line between trying to articulate direct insights on the one hand and indulging in compulsive rumination on the other. You see, people like our friend Moksha here or Water by the River have an undeniable penchant for writing exhaustive essays - especially the latter, lol -, and yet you never see me accuse them of  mental masturbation. It's pretty easy to tell if someone is speaking from a place of calm and sober clarity or from a place of obsessive & neurotic overthinking.

Well, they stick to a classical line, accepted for centuries, and do not deviate from there one millimeter, and I understand that you find that correct and reassuring. I speak from total ignorance of the texts, they do not interest me in the slightest. in fact, they seem toxic to me. My opening is real, I know it because I experience it. But sometimes i express doubts, i ve not the need to show absolute certainly, because it's not real. In me and in anyone. That it doesn't resonate with you makes me see that you don't understand me. and I would say that you do not understand me because your mind is closed, squares and lines. 

Edited by Breakingthewall

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@Bazooka Jesus just copy anything that i wrote and show me the aberration. Of course, i don't remember what I wrote because i write according the moment, i ve not a line of though. Let's see, Maybe you are right in some extent

Edited by Breakingthewall

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On 21.6.2023 at 7:43 PM, Davino said:

Now some context. Leo usually understands no self as the first awakenings where you realize you are not your actual biographical self, then you awaken to the real Self. Buddhist would frame it more as realizing you are not your biographical self, then dissolving all solidities of this ego self to make a constant state of no-self in your every day life. Once all solidities are dissolved (the I centre is no more and you have a 360 non locative experience 24/7) that would be no-self. If that is the Self, it's hard to tell as they are not there anymore and the wiring to arrive there will shift their experience 

Yes. Let me allow to hijack the post :)

Beyond the "no-self" of no biographical self/ego self there are some more "encompassing" "higher" no-selfs. Or better said: Some stages of much more empty no-selves. 

  • First personality/biographical self/"ego" goes  (1)
  • then time goes: Always here Mind, time is just a concept (2)
  • Then the locatedness of being in the body for example goes: one is the whole visual field, or beginning nonduality (3)
  • then that becomes infinite. Anything that could appear appears in boundless Reality/Infinite Consciousness. (4)

Then we have personality/egoless (1), timeless (2), boundless/nondual (3) and infinite (4). All of these are Awakenings/Enlightenments. But not the Full Enlightenment/Waking Up.

But then there is even a murky no-self still there: It is nothing, totally empty, but still some individuality/separation still there, moving as I-thought/I-feeling on Reality/Oneself. This here:

 

IN that state (1)+(2)+(3)+(4), when all last traces of individuality are seen moving within onself (that takes time), then the Big Bang or Waking Up or Full Enlightenment can happen, where one actually becomes Reality, no more questions left.

And Infinite Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness can be described as (True) No-Self (since no individuality is left splitting Reality in two), or as Self (because all possible worlds appear in it). Then You ARE Absolute Reality (everything that shows or could ever appear, and all beings/perspectives), but no longer confuse a separate individual part for your true self.

 

I have written about that before in previous posts, one can search for examle if one is so inclined for Basis Enlightenment in my posts.

The problem quite often here on this forum, and with the effect of some of Leos teachings: Thinking one has realized No-Self, while one has NOT achieved True No Self, but some of the preliminary versions of No-Self (see above), boosted by psychedelics, and including a lot of higher realm stuff accessed with that. Nothing too bad with that, if it is just a step/stage, is just not the end of the story, and doesn't end suffering. Or worse: Not even having had the Awakenings (1)-(4), and just conceptually boosting the separate self and equating it with God/Reality. Problem of these stages: Instead of finally transcending/killing the separate self, these moves boost it.

And most important: Only  @Bazooka Jesus is awake. I mean, come on, that mother of declaration of AWAKE can not be topped, so I think that is something we can all agree on :)

Selling Water by the River

 

PS: To make it a bit more practical: Ever dreamt you were somebody/something completely different? Or dreamt of being just an empty camera not self-reflective at all, just watching, thinking and reflecting nothing? That is pretty near. Infinite Consciousness is totally empty, just aware. Can take any feeling/thinking of being anything, anyone, anybody. It is empty, impersonal, so that it is compatible to any mindstream. "IT" is already the Awareness of all Beings. YOU! Already. But not what you think you are. Only an empty Awareness can be in the perspectives/mindstreams of other beings/perspectives, not the "loaded" mindstream of a being that still feels separate (has ego-arisings the cause the illusion of being something specific/separate).

Imagine being somebody/something completely different. An Alien. A cat. And YOU, your Awareness is still there. And nothing really is lost if such a shift were to happen.

So nothing is lost, just the illusion that all the thinking/feeling brings, moves, in you. And besides this Awareness/Nothingness, nothing is, was, ever will be. THIS is also all appearances, Consciousness appearing as appearances, nondual. IT is Reality itself.

And to fully get/understand that, ALL identity has to go. Impersonal, Fully Empty Awareness. Nondual and infinite, timeless, always here, never not possible being not here. Anything possible necessarily appearing in IT/YOU. And the True One/You are still there... Impersonal. Silent. Infinite. Aware. Timeless. Containing all appearances. Nothing besides it. One without a second. Reality itself.

 

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3 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

then the Big Bang or Waking Up or Full Enlightenment can happen, where one actually becomes Reality, no more questions left.

Exactly. the problem is that this state is not lasting, and when it passes it leaves the person in a state, let's say, of the need to return to that total openness. For me the description of that opening is: suddenly, all the obstacles disappear. total reality flows completely, this is you, that's it. infinity without control or barriers. then the barriers return and an intention remains: I must reconfigure my person to promote that openness, to always be as open as possible. How? That is the work, anyone have to do in his own way

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1 hour ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Mmmmmm... as always, your pointers are much more subtle and eloquent than my own verbal diarrhea, good sir.

Anyway, I am still more AWAKE. ^_^

@Breakingthewall

There is a fine line between trying to articulate direct insights on the one hand and indulging in compulsive rumination on the other. You see, people like our friend Moksha here or Water by the River have an undeniable penchant for writing exhaustive essays - especially the latter, lol -, and yet you never see me accuse them of  mental masturbation. It's pretty easy to tell if someone is speaking from a place of calm and sober clarity or from a place of obsessive & neurotic overthinking.

It is just my personal opinion but I just wanted to defend @Breakingthewall.

I consider myself pretty consciouss and from my POV @Breakingthewall writes much more from direct experience than other two users you mentioned and for sure more respectfully and less arrogant than you.

So do not take your personal biases as bulletproof indication of how developed someone is. 

Edited by Arthogaan

In the Vast Expanse everything that arises is Lively Awakened Awareness.

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1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

I must reconfigure my person to promote that openness, to always be as open as possible. How? That is the work, anyone have to do in his own way

Yes, very true. One IS already Reality, but some arisings ("my person") is clouding this understanding/realization/Enlightenment, and causes suffering.

Sorry, can't stop the commerical :) :

My path basically was Trekchö: Learning to cut off the "clouding-over mechanism" of the separate self illusion fast enough. And before getting fast enough, getting familiar enough with it.

 

But each way is unique, each being has certain points to work on and navigate and transcend.

Yet, I am still highly convinced of this method for transcendence when one is ready for it. 

Bon Voyage!

Water by the River

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

My path basically was Trekchö: Learning to cut off the "clouding-over mechanism" of the separate self illusion fast enough

26 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

 

Thats for highly disciplined people there are different paths for different people. one question: that opening, that big bang you speak of, the total absence of barriers and complete liberation, the total flow of the unthinkable... is it something that has  happened to you once, or an opening that you can do at will? 

28 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

writes from direct experience

Thanks, that's true and feels good that it's perceptible. my attempt to deepen the opening is real and constant, and the results are real. then we talk in this forum and everything is conceptualizing , and many things that we say are wrong, but how would it be if we are using concepts? It is a subtle work, and for me a passion. 

Edited by Breakingthewall

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2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I would say that more than abandoning them, exchange them for others. You will always have desires and aversions. Could you torture children without aversion? Don't you desire more openness to the absolute? If you see reality for what it is, everything appears less dramatic, but you will never be indifferent, nor do I think it is necessary to be to be open to yourself

I'm referring to dissolving desires and aversions which are so distracting that they close the portal to awareness. You have to dive deep into the ocean of yourself, and face the darkest, murkiest fears. There's nothing complex about it, but it requires absolute sincerity. When you do, these mind creatures release their grip, and you are free to live directly.

Not all attachments are distracting. I enjoy New York Super Fudge Chunk ice cream. I can do so without losing awareness; in fact, awareness makes every bite tastier.


Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos.

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2 hours ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Anyway, I am still more AWAKE. ^_^

Only because your hilarious quips and insightful antics have made everyone laugh so hard that we are exhausted into slumber.


Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos.

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2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Well, they stick to a classical line, accepted for centuries, and do not deviate from there one millimeter

You know better than to dismiss what we have shared as regurgitated dogma. I share what I have directly realized, regardless of whether or not it was already realized by mystics crumbled to dust.


Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos.

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1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

then the barriers return and an intention remains: I must reconfigure my person to promote that openness, to always be as open as possible. How? That is the work, anyone have to do in his own way

For me, the how began with realizing who I am, and that there are blockages preventing the awareness which is my nature from lucidly experiencing its creation. I knew instinctively and deeply that these blockages had to be dissolved. Shortly after joining the forum, I wrote several poems about precisely this. It didn't happen yet, but I knew it must.

The dark night of the soul honed my awareness to single-pointed sincerity. It was the pathway of hell that led to heaven. It was necessary for me to truly surrender.

I learned to identify thoughts and feelings immediately, without being drawn into them or misidentifying as them. As Ramana Maharshi put it, by ignoring them I scorched them. The obstacles gradually cleared, until the portal was direct.

This is the pathway of enlightenment. It is not about solving the unsolvable paradoxes of the cosmos, but about falling so deeply in love with the reality of yourself that nothing has the power to entice you from it.


Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos.

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41 minutes ago, Moksha said:

. I share what I have directly realized,

I know, i just answered a comment about comparisons, nonsense

26 minutes ago, Moksha said:

This is the pathway of enlightenment. It is not about solving the unsolvable paradoxes of the cosmos, but about falling so deeply in love with the reality of yourself that nothing has the power to entice you from it.

The thing is to look at reality directly, without filters, to merge with it and realize what this moment is, without holding on to mental handholds. being without limitation, reality flowing. the problem is that anything else is misery. obstacles must be removed, courage must be total. And here come the psychedelics. they are a perfect way of surrender. But of course, not a must for everyone.

About the understanding of the cosmos, it's not about enlightenment, it's just extremely interesting. Maybe it's possible to understand very deep, why not? 

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6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The thing is to look at reality directly, without filters, to merge with it and realize what this moment is, without holding on to mental handholds. being without limitation, reality flowing. the problem is that anything else is misery. obstacles must be removed, courage must be total. And here come the psychedelics. they are a perfect way of surrender. But of course, not a must for everyone.

Overall I agree. For me it happened without psychedelics, and I'm still not convinced psychedelics will allow you to be perpetually open. Maybe they are a starting point, but you still have to develop the astutetness while sober to immediately recognize and dismiss thoughts and emotions as distractions, while remaining anchored in awareness.

About the understanding of the cosmos, it's not about enlightenment, it's just extremely interesting. Maybe it's possible to understand very deep, why not?

It's so easy to fall back into misidentification by pursuing the "extremely interesting". That only tosses you back into the swamp of thoughts. Anything that can be understood by the mind is not actually real. You can study the sciences of extreme relative reality, like astrophysics and quantum physics, to get the tiniest glimpse, but it is nothing compared to direct realization.


Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos.

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8 minutes ago, Moksha said:

For me it happened without psychedelics, and I'm still not convinced psychedelics will allow you to be perpetually open. Maybe they are a starting point, but you still have to develop the astutetness while sober to immediately recognize and dismiss thoughts and emotions as distractions, while remaining anchored in awareness.

I accidentally missed my morning dose of medical cannabis a few days ago (which I usually take 2x/day). I decided then to only take it once a night moving forward. That same night I had a breakthrough experience as I explained here.

It’s amazing how less can be more, and how “accidents” can redirect us in the right direction.


“Within the garden of your mind, every thought is a seed that can bloom into a galaxy of wonders." -ChatGPT 4

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14 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

or an opening that you can do at will? 

IT is available any time, and most of the time it is always there without doing anything. 

If the character gets annoying and tries to generate bad emotions via suffering (which has reduced tremendously anyway), "I" just look into it, see what "I" really am, what the "substance" of the character trying to close down/feel bad really is, and the bug is dead and transcended again. Goes from "oh, that is not good"-character-arising to a small voice somewhere in the background unable to grip attention, and the field again nondual and infinite without center. The arisings of the separate self just stop, don't get believed anymore, loose their hypnotic power, because it feels way better and the "choice" is there.

Yet, my functional character works better than ever. Less filters, more intuition, much more bliss, love and compassion.

What would it be worth if it wouldn't be always available?

Its actually too good to be true, besides being true.

@Arthogaan wrote that a bit more direct experience description is appreciated, which I understand. Which I don't often do, because here is already enough ego-bravado, so I tend to write more on the neutral and technical side.

But at the same time, sometimes it is probably good to write a bit more about direct experience. 

Besides, when I write technical descriptions, I write it from own experience and understanding, and use the best sources I know to show how similiar the deep structure is over various systems and paths.

Water by the River

 

PS: And a more technical description, using an analogy: 

Before fully realizing what one really is (Impersonal Infinite Consciousness/Awareness/Nothingness without a second), one doesn't really know that 2 +2 is 4. One intuits maybe that it is more like 3,9 than 8,5. One intuits that it is eternal (always here), nondual, infinite, mere appearance (lets say thats 4.5). But its not fully impersonal, some individuality of being a separate "anything" (although already an aware nothing) being still there. Ones Deep Identity is not obviously fully it, because that Realization is still missing. Roger Thisdells Videos stage 4 and stage 5 are the best material I am aware of to describe that subtle (but absolutely deciding) difference. 

But once knowing ones True Nature (when it becomes really nondual, fully impersponal, yet at the same time really the Whole Reality), one knows exactly that 2 +2 is 4, always has been, always will be, and can't be different. There is no more doubt about. Couldn't be. Doubt is moving within Oneself, it doesn't make sense, one knows its structure as moving arising appearing (doubt-) thought. 

Reality is directly known and understood by BEING it. Infinite Consciousness/Reality understands/realizes its own essence/being. There is nothing else besides "it", and nothing else that is or could be aware. So it can only be known by being it, the boundless infinite nondual Totality. The first time realizing 2 + 2 is 4 is a direct and unmistakenable realization/experience into THAT which is (and was) always here and the case.

The magic word is fully impersonal, fully empty, separate self fully transcended/dead/gone. That is the common denominator of all Full Enlightenment Experiences/Realization descriptions. They all use different surface language, that is the deep structure element in all of them. If that is missing, it is one of the preliminary Enlightenment/Awakening Experiences on the path leading to the Full Realization/Shift.

And after knowing/realizing 2+2  is 4, that knowing is always available in case one gets sloppy and the character tries to create some confusion or suffering. I look into the character-arisings, see there Nature/Substance, which is the same unnameable Suchness of Everything, of Reality, and 2+2 is 4, the character bug is dead again, and doesn't cause suffering.

So in that way, it is always available (it is and was there all along anyway), and one reorients the whole character to constantly stay in that. In Ken Wilbers Words: From Peak Experience to Plateau to Permanent (which holds for all transformation stages). But once 2 + 2 = 4 is known, then the separate self character just burns like ice in the desert.

Maybe that is a bit helpful.

 

PS PS: And of course, lets not forget, only @Bazooka Jesus is AWAKE. The ONE and ONLY. :)

Edited by Water by the River

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15 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

@Bazooka Jesus just copy anything that i wrote and show me the aberration. Of course, i don't remember what I wrote because i write according the moment, i ve not a line of though. Let's see, Maybe you are right in some extent

My friend, it seems to me like you're the one here who doesn't (want to) understand what I am getting at. This is not about the "correctness" of your concepts; it's about your obvious addiction to conceptual thinking.

You are like a guy who's stuck in a labyrinth and is looking for a way out... and so he says to himself "well, let me first draw a complete map of the labyrinth and get an overview of the entire place" (never mind that the labyrinth is literally infinite, which means that you will never ever ever ever have an even remotely complete map even if you spend the next one hundred billion lifetimes studying the damn place); and so he goes deeper and deeper into the labyrinth, examining every single nook and cranny (and even adding to the labyrinth by imagining into existence a whole bunch of nooks and crannies where there were none to begin with) instead of just looking for the exit and walking out.

Again, do you want study (and further enlarge) the labyrinth or do you want to leave it?

Your choice.

 

Edited by Bazooka Jesus

Why so serious?

 

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Just now, Bazooka Jesus said:

 

My friend, it seems to me like you're the one here who doesn't (want to) understand what I am getting at. This is not about the "correctness" of your concepts; it's about your obvious addiction to conceptual thinking.

You are like a guy who's stuck in a labyrinth and is looking for a way out... and so he says to himself "well, let me first draw a complete map of the labyrinth and get an overview of the entire place" (never mind that the labyrinth is literally infinite, which means that you will never ever ever ever have an even remotely complete map even if you spend the next one hundred billion lifetimes studying the damn place); and so he goes deeper and deeper into the labyrinth, examining every single nook and cranny (and even adding to the labyrinth by imagining into existence a whole bunch of nooks and crannies where there were none to begin with) instead of just looking for the exit and walking out.

Again, do you want study (and further enlarge) the labyrinth or do you want to leave it?

 

13 hours ago, Moksha said:

 

That is your vision, and in my opinion it is wrong. I function from the emptiness of the mind, I promote the openness to the present as much as possible, I am in an open state almost all the time, in the extent that i can for now. more and more every day, and then, sometimes, I write my impressions of what reality is in this forum. Obviously, I don't write the infinitely repeated word Ohm, but concepts. you do not like it? don't you approve? does it seem bad to you? Maybe it's due to lack of understanding. Consider the possibility. Of course i write a lot of wrong things, i use this forum to reconfigure my frame mind, not to teach, I'm using you guys, with your permission

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4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I function from the emptiness of the mind, I promote the openness to the present as much as possible, I am in an open state almost all the time, in the extent that i can for now. more and more every day, and then, sometimes, I write my impressions of what reality is in this forum.

Okay... great. So give me a description of your direct experience in the here and now, without any unnecessary fluff and embellishment.


Why so serious?

 

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12 hours ago, Moksha said:

Anything that can be understood by the mind is not actually real.

you can function from a silent and open state, understand things and then reason them out and put them into words. For example, when Buddha says that there is a reincarnation cycle, is he doing mind masturbation?

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