StarStruck

Solipsism and no self

122 posts in this topic

As far as I understand it. Solipsism recognizes everything is made of dream stuff, and no-self theory recognizes that self (smaller self) is made of dream stuff. What remains is you. I don't get why you guys are making such a hissy fit.

No self theory and solipsism are pointing at the same thing but from a different angle. Self versus other respectively.

  • No self pertaining to no-self theory
  • Solipsism pertaining to no other

I still have to work this shit out to get the answer through direct experience. I'm planning to do some LSD or molly.

Edited by StarStruck

In Tate we trust

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

if you are not aware of it, it does not exist, since you are the existence. the consciousness of red is the red. there is nothing outside of you. "outside" does not even exist as an idea. The thing is, you're only seeing red. where is the blue? this is the difficult. It is inside you, like everything else, but you don't see it "now". how is experience created? that is the question 

You didn't do the thing...... ?

When people speak of no-self events, you have to do the thing to get the frame, you have to just briefly entertain your absence as something real. You have likely had similar events but I think you ought to understand people who have had "no-self" type "awakenings". Just because it's something people could discuss, and so it's good to understand what happened to them.

When the thing happens, you will be sitting there aware of the red color. But you're not there... I just said you are there yes, to stress that the color is still there, because when you think of qualia in your absence you are removing the conscious nature of qualia instead of only the I. Which isn't possible as you know. So if you were to envision big bang into JUST blue, in absence of mind, consciousness, god,  just hypothetically entertain the absence of those things, entertain non existent void then JUST blue coming into being. NOTHING. NOTHING. NOTHING ELSE. NOTHING ELSE. Entertain it, please just briefly. That literally NOTHING AT ALL exists but the qualia of blue.

Before dismissing that it is impossible and never happens. Entertain it appearing ANYWAY, and hopefully see that consciousness is not really there: consciousness is literally existence and nothing more and briefly this will be apparent. Consciousness is existence itself, not even related necessarily to subjective experience, the word shouldn't even exist it should just be called "existence" or "being" because that's what it is. The reason you can't remove "consciousness" from red is because consciousness is not consciousness, consciousness is literally just the sheer fact of existence.

Nobody has to exist to see red, no god has to exist to see red, seeing doesn't even need to exist to see red. Red just exists. With no additional steps at all. And the existence of for ex the sight of red, invariably means it appears precisely as it is seen EVEN IF nothing exists to see it, because the sight of red can only ever be the sight of red. Which means it appears as the sight of red despite absence of ANY witnessing.

In a devoid reality with absolutely nothing AT ALL no god no mind no consciousness, then bang BLUE... When it appears, so long as blue exists it exists exactly as you understand it to mean that "you" are seeing it.

The primary difference is a recontextualization away from the idea of such a thing as seeing or hearing or tasting, or even of "being conscious"... AWAY from "I am" and instead to JUST "am" or "is"... There is no such thing as "being conscious" and the word consciousness ought to be replaced with the word "existence", "is-ness" or some similar variant...

It's like 1% different from what you are saying. But a lot of people will have these types of events happen and it is slightly different. With am instead of an I am.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Breakingthewall

Do you want to "understand" the dream or do you want to wake up from it?

You don't wake up from the dream by understanding it... you wake up from it by waking up from it. Trying to understand it intellectually only sucks you deeper and deeper into the dream.

Btw, notice that in your replies to my first posts on this thread, you didn't really reply to what I wrote. You're basically just muttering to yourself here like some crazy guy standing at the street corner, frantically running against self-erected mental windmills in the hope of gaining "clarity". But guess what, you don't reach clarity by piling thought upon thought upon thought. You reach it by decluttering the mind from all unnecessary conceptual garbage and clearing the space for simple and authentic realization.

Edited by Bazooka Jesus

Why so serious?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

As far as I understand it. Solipsism recognizes everything is made of dream stuff, and no-self theory recognizes that self (smaller self) is made of dream stuff. What remains is you. I don't get why you guys are making such a hissy fit.

No self theory and solipsism are pointing at the same thing but from a different angle. Self versus other respectively.

  • No self pertaining to no-self theory
  • Solipsism pertaining to no other

I still have to work this shit out to get the answer through direct experience. I'm planning to do some LSD or molly.

People spend a long time with it because these are the real depths of mystical experiences and it becomes frustratingly difficult to convey.

When trying to convey a no-self style mystical event, when you tell people they are not there but the world remains, they invariably imagine it means they're in eternal void like what Atheists believe and it's NOT THAT. They invariably will take the appearing world out along with the idea of the I am... And it is MADENNING because after a no-self event, what you're communicating is very basic, but you just cannot get people to drop the concept of I or self and entertain the notion of the world appearing ANYWAY... And have them comprehend that it appears exactly as if they are seeing it even though they aren't seeing it, even though they don't exist.

It's like telling someone they don't exist, they will be incredulous and state confidently that they are certain they exist because if they didn't exist how could they be thinking these thoughts etc. IT IS SO HARD TO EXPLAIN to someone that they aren't actually there, they don't exist, and yet of course they are still seeing the world etc. Just that they aren't seeing it. Nobody is. Lol. How do you convey that particularly?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Nobody has to exist to see red, no god has to exist to see red, seeing doesn't even need to exist to see red. Red just exists.

red only exists if there is awareness of red. and if there is awareness of red, you are, since you are awareness. The thing about the awakening of the no self refers to the identification with the human being, the memories and all that. that's obvious. you are just existence, and red is existence. awareness of red = red, there is no observer and object, there is experience. you are the experience I repeat that the difficult thing is to understand how the experience is only red, when reality has no limits, therefore the experience should be everything 

21 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

@Breakingthewall

Do you want to "understand" the dream or do you want to wake up from it?

Dream and awakening is just a way of speaking. reality is reality, you can be aware of reality at different depths. When I talk about understanding, I don't mean understanding in a philosophical verbal way, but rather increasing your level of consciousness. 

 

21 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

But guess what, you don't reach clarity by piling thought upon thought upon thought. You reach it by decluttering the mind from all unnecessary conceptual garbage and clearing the space for simple and authentic realization

I'm not doing that, I'm putting into words direct realizations that I've had, and that I can still access. This is a mix between realizing and conceptualizing, which serves, for me at least, to create a more flexible frame of mind to allow for deeper realizations.

Edited by Breakingthewall

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I'm not doing that, I'm putting into words direct realizations that I've had, and that I can still access. This is a mix between realizing and conceptualizing, which serves, for me at least, to create a more flexible frame of mind to allow for deeper realizations.

...and apparently, it also serves for you as a tool to create "extremely complicated" complexities where there are none, lol.

Well, have it your own way. But don't forget to put on your helmet... I hear that those pesky windmill blades can cut your head clean off I you're not careful. :P


Why so serious?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

red only exists if there is awareness of red. and if there is awareness of red, you are, since you are awareness. The thing about the awakening of the no self refers to the identification with the human being, the memories and all that. that's obvious. you are just existence, and red is existence. awareness of red = red, there is no observer and object, there is experience. you are the experience I repeat that the difficult thing is to understand how the experience is only red, when reality has no limits, therefore the experience should be everything 

But you can literally just remove the word "you" in all of that!!! It becomes unnecessary.

Like there is never awareness OF red, awareness IS red. This is also a coldly logical inevitability, like making origami animals, the origami animal literally IS paper... As opposed to paper being a process through which the animal is known. The animal literally IS the paper and there's ONLY paper to any single tiny part of it. The paper is irreducible and indivisible. That is existence... Existence IS red. Or "consciousness" IS red, never conscious OF red - but IS red.

Just like that awareness isn't  a process via which things are known, awareness is existence, and if the term existence replaced it, it would all become easier to discuss... It is nothing more than that... Anything which exists is existence whether a subjective perception or something else. Human language communicates the fact of existence with the term awareness.

"there is no observer and object, there is experience." Why not end the sentence there? Why add the "you are" part after. It's unneeded. It's not real, you absolutely summarised in the prior line.

Existence IS the experience of being you, or the color red or a sound or taste etc.

Your example of no-self is not what people are encountering. That is normal "ego death" as with DMT or acid or shrooms. No-self event is reported very rarely in toad ceremonies, you will see people painfully struggle like this to try to express it. It is genuinely like erasing you from existence and somehow the world doesn't go away with you. It isn't just being a mass of ever-changing flux, or forgetting what a human is, or feeling to be merged with everything and one with the divine. It's like being erased entirely. I've ONLY ever seen these events reported from toad ceremonies, rarely, and rarely spiritual practitioners and monks etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

hear that those pesky windmill blades can cut your head clean off I you're not careful. :P

1 hour ago, OldManCorcoran said:

 

No problem with that, i do this work just for fun, because i find it beautiful. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, OldManCorcoran said:

People spend a long time with it because these are the real depths of mystical experiences and it becomes frustratingly difficult to convey.

I believe @RMQualtrough has pointed out the very core of the paradigm shift that is so hard to "get" quite elegantly:

On 8/13/2022 at 11:52 PM, RMQualtrough said:

All of this trickery is caused by the sense of location. That is precisely and exactly how "duality" is created. Like if you take K and think you're on the ceiling but you're on the ground. The trick is exactly the same, what "is" is just sensed as being "over there" and BY IMPLICATION we then feel a sense of centre that is back and away from what is... Like, see how you can't imagine any image as being anything other than in front of you? That's the magic trick. That is literally how it's done... The fake sense of centre gives us a sense of a beingness away from and apart from the object. It's not there. It literally does not exist. There's just that. It's not consciousness, it's not you, it's just fucking red, or music. It's not experience or experiencing. It's just reality... Just what is...

Like WTF man? This is seriously fucked and weird. Honestly it's FUCKED, why the FUCK are people seeking that instead of dumping it into the ocean?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Your example of no-self is not what people are encountering. That is normal "ego death" as with DMT or acid or shrooms. No-self event is reported very rarely in toad ceremonies, you will see people painfully struggle like this to try to express it. It is genuinely like erasing you from existence and somehow the world doesn't go away with you. It isn't just being a mass of ever-changing flux, or forgetting what a human is, or feeling to be merged with everything and one with the divine. It's like being erased entirely. I've ONLY ever seen these events reported from toad ceremonies, rarely, and rarely spiritual practitioners and monks etc.

I've had that experience several times with 5meo, initially it seemed extremely horrible to me, until I realized one thing: it's just another experience. you are the experience, the consciousness that takes forms. it is true that the self as we know it, limited, disappears, but there is still existence, so from now on, self means unlimited existence. is what we are, then the word to designate it is i

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, WeCome1 said:

I believe @RMQualtrough has pointed out the very core of the paradigm shift that is so hard to "get" quite elegantly:

Yes similar to that. I can track the changes in ego as someone gets higher and higher on something like DMT. It is like this:

1. Normal sober perception, I end at the edges of my body.

2. Low dose DMT. Start losing sense of your body so your awareness feels to shrink. If you can't feel any body part anymore except say, your chest, it feels like your awareness ends at your chest rather than your entire body.

3. All sense of body is lost. Now because your ego has no place to cling itself, it is simply everywhere. It encompasses everything, there is no perceived edge so it feels infinite (like how outside your field of vision is not even black, it's not existent, and you can't mentally place the border of where these two things meet).

4. The sense of ego is actually erased completely. Rather than feeling to leak into infinity, boundlessness, it becomes like the vision that is beyond your field of view, which like above is not black, it's just not existent at all. Then you don't exist anymore. Everything continues appearing like above but you aren't there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@OldManCorcoran  

the issue of 5 meo is to overcome a resistance. the self in which we are trapped is a resistance, 5 meo breaks it, and infinity remains. that we are. afterwards, all the mental history of interpretation is inevitable, and I would say healthy and necessary. the mind must be equalized, rebuilt. Those who want to simplify everything, in my opinion, are taking shortcuts that are not going to get them anywhere. now they would say: there is nowhere to go. Yeah, but you're a guy with two legs who lives. You are in something, in a process. you don't like it and want to take shortcuts? sorry it won't work

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

the mind is a tool of understanding.

The conditioned mind is a cluttered portal that creates a false sense of separation, and blinds the absolute from itself. The clear mind is its direct conduit.


Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Moksha said:

The conditioned mind is a cluttered portal that creates a false sense of separation, and blinds the absolute from itself. The clear mind is its direct conduit.

I'm taking about unconditioned mind. Free mind, without limitations. 

trying to understand with a mind biased by learned patterns is useless and a mess. the mind must be clear of everything to be able to understand

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I'm taking about unconditioned mind. Free mind, without limitations. 

trying to understand with a mind biased by learned patterns is useless and a mess. the mind must be clear of everything to be able to understand

The spiritual journey begins with realization, but deepens with integration. The complexity that you see is caused by learned patterns, which have to be unlearned. Focus on clearing the portal. Let go of thinking and allow life to unfold unconditionally, within the awareness that you are.

When awareness passes the event threshold within its dream, phenomena begin to lose their gravitational pull. There is deepening distance from thoughts and feelings. They are immediately seen for the transient phenomena that they are, and instead of demanding your attention, they converge as pointers to this.


Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They can't both be true.  Solipsism is a philosophy of the unenlightened (really, unenlightened radical egocentrists.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Moksha said:

The spiritual journey begins with realization, but deepens with integration

2 hours ago, Moksha said:

 

I'd say that the spiritual journey is more than we can see. We only see the tip of the iceberg. the understanding of which I speak is not conceptual. it is openness to the now. How far can we go? I don't know, but we'll see

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

I'd say that the spiritual journey is more than we can see. We only see the tip of the iceberg. the understanding of which I speak is not conceptual. it is openness to the now. How far can we go? I don't know, but we'll see

The spiritual journey allows the absolute to see more clearly. The absolute realizes the real vs. the false within its dream. It begins to experience its imagination lucidly, without losing itself within it.

Openness requires letting go of your desires and aversions. It isn't about analyzing, desconstructing, or solving them. It is about dissolving them by deepening awareness.


Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Openness requires letting go of your desires and aversions. It isn't about analyzing, desconstructing, or solving them. It is about dissolving them by deepening awareness.

I would say that more than abandoning them, exchange them for others. You will always have desires and aversions. Could you torture children without aversion? Don't you desire more openness to the absolute? If you see reality for what it is, everything appears less dramatic, but you will never be indifferent, nor do I think it is necessary to be to be open to yourself

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Moksha said:

The spiritual journey begins with realization, but deepens with integration. The complexity that you see is caused by learned patterns, which have to be unlearned. Focus on clearing the portal. Let go of thinking and allow life to unfold unconditionally, within the awareness that you are.

When awareness passes the event threshold within its dream, phenomena begin to lose their gravitational pull. There is deepening distance from thoughts and feelings. They are immediately seen for the transient phenomena that they are, and instead of demanding your attention, they converge as pointers to this.

Mmmmmm... as always, your pointers are much more subtle and eloquent than my own verbal diarrhea, good sir.

Anyway, I am still more AWAKE. ^_^

@Breakingthewall

There is a fine line between trying to articulate direct insights on the one hand and indulging in compulsive rumination on the other. You see, people like our friend Moksha here or Water by the River have an undeniable penchant for writing exhaustive essays - especially the latter, lol -, and yet you never see me accuse them of  mental masturbation. It's pretty easy to tell if someone is speaking from a place of calm and sober clarity or from a place of obsessive & neurotic overthinking.


Why so serious?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now