Going Against Spiritual Notion of Completely Escaping Suffering and....

[Water by the River]

6 hours ago, Moksha said:

People confuse pain with suffering. They aren't the same. Pain is the inevitable cost of experiencing life through a human form with a nervous system and relationships with apparent others. It can be softened by the absolute, but not entirely ignored if the absolute wants to continue experiencing the cosmos through the form.

Pain is the price of dreaming. Suffering is the price of losing yourself within the dream.

Yes. Fully agree.

Bodily pain can of course still arise.

• (1) But suffering as psychological resistance to what is can fully go.
• (2) Especially the continued dissatisfaction/suffering cycles of the separate self can end, drowned by a current of bliss directly from the source of ones True Being.

If you don't share my humble opinion, please feel invited to check that in the cases of many many enlightened beings in the history of mankind. What made them so attractive for their fellow companions? That they suffered, were confused, and sometimes a bit frustrated and not so-loving-as-possible, in the usual merry-go-round-cycle, as their fellow nonenlightened company?

I guess these two observations/statements/claims (1) and (2) will always be a problem, and correspondendly be attacked and criticized by anybody trying to declare  some kind of stage/state/awakening/"realization"/understanding/whatever as final or superior which doesn't deliver that freedom from suffering. 

And if not, why not be so kind and declare that ones version of the path to heaven does NOT provide that which every(!) being wants: Permanent bliss and happiness, and an end to the cycle of dissatisfaction and suffering. Or (smarter move probably) maybe add at least the announcement that one intents to someday later deliver these goodies also. 

So ladies and gentlemen, fasten your seatbelts, and watch the onslought. I know, stupid as I am writing all of that, I can't complain.... Luckily, the video with the bear is already in the signiture, and will hopefully protect the writer of these heretic lines.

Well, Caveat Emptor, and bon voyage!

Water by the River 

 

PS:

On 17.4.2023 at 5:30 PM, Rasheed said:

I think because survival won't allow it. No amount of enlightenment can make one transcend survival because these spiritual teachers, Eckhart Tolle, Osho are still human with survival bias. Survival doesn't allow complete stoppage of suffering or unconditional happiness. 

Not that I would recommend doing something like this, but just some idea of what Nirvana/Nirvikalpa/Cessation can do to the survival-imperative. The guy didn't even flinch or move a muscle. Warning: Can be quite disturbing to read/watch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thích_Quảng_Đức

Probably Britney 24/7 for a month would have gotten him anyways... 

PSPS: I have to admit that Moksha writes much more beautiful posts than yours truly

Edited April 18, 2023 by Water by the River

[Rasheed]

Thing is since complete cessation of suffering is not possible, why are these gurus still selling it? Still selling unconditional happiness and complete escape from suffering?

[Moksha]

18 minutes ago, Rasheed said:

Thing is since complete cessation of suffering is not possible, why are these gurus still selling it? Still selling unconditional happiness and complete escape from suffering?

See my earlier post to @Breakingthewall in this thread. Pain is endemic to living, suffering is not.

[Jodistrict]

You are confusing pain with suffering.  Everyone feels pain.  Pain is sensation generated by our bodies to help us survive.  Even the Buddha had a painful death.   Suffering is the mental resistance to what is which includes pain.  Suffering = Pain x Resistance.   

[Ulax]

@Rasheed you can still have pain, pain is an unavoidable part of life. No matter how spiritually developed someone is, in my opinion. However, in my opinion, it is our resistance to that pain which creates suffering. So where there is pain it does not necessarily mean that there is suffering. Because if we do not to resist pain, then it's only pain, not suffering. And, with Spiritual techniques, I believe you can train such that you do not resist pain and hence you do not suffer.

[Rasheed]

Let’s just take Leo’s example, if we put Osho, the master of masters in a room with 24/7 B-Spears music, won’t he suffer or naked in Siberian winter? 
Seriously, won’t even Osho suffer?

how about claim of unconditional, 24/7 happiness? How are these people selling 24/7 happiness I don’t get it. 

[Carl-Richard]

11 minutes ago, Rasheed said:

Let’s just take Leo’s example, if we put Osho, the master of masters in a room with 24/7 B-Spears music, won’t he suffer or naked in Siberian winter? 
Seriously, won’t even Osho suffer?

how about claim of unconditional, 24/7 happiness? How are these people selling 24/7 happiness I don’t get it. 

The real thought experiment you want to think about is to put Osho in a silent room with nothing in it for an hour and then a normal person, and then compare the two.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Jodistrict]

25 minutes ago, Rasheed said:

Let’s just take Leo’s example, if we put Osho, the master of masters in a room with 24/7 B-Spears music, won’t he suffer or naked in Siberian winter? 
Seriously, won’t even Osho suffer?

how about claim of unconditional, 24/7 happiness? How are these people selling 24/7 happiness I don’t get it. 

Wim Hof has been able to conquer the cold, and has used it as an ally for spiritual advancement.     

[Water by the River]

19 minutes ago, Squeekytoy said:

Jesus the examples you guys come up with... 

 

Agree. My example-guy up there at least didn't get cold in the first place, contrary to Wim 

[Carl-Richard]

3 minutes ago, RebornConsciousness said:

I dissagree, I think these are almost identical terms

You can suffer while sitting in a silent room doing nothing and where nothing is hurting you.

[Ulax]

43 minutes ago, RebornConsciousness said:

 

I dissagree, I think these are almost identical terms. If you experience pain on a long enough time frame, you will eventially suffer. And if you experience high intensity of pain, you'll not have the will to recontectualize it in your mind, or "stop resisting" against it. Isn't getting tortured pretty much equivalent to suffering? I'm sure you wouldn't call crucifixion just pain, you'd call it suffering. The person nailed to the cross, slowly bleeding from both holes in both hands, while slowly dying from dehydration and suffocation, wouldn't just experience pain, the person would suffer. You'd resist the pain, because the pain is too much.

@RebornConsciousness I would agree if we're just talking about me right now. Or for 99.9999% of people. Even those with very high amounts of mindfulness skills with, I imagine, not be able to resist the pain and say torture. But I imagine there are some who have reached such to a high degree of consciousness that they could be tortured and not resist the Sensation . 

So the thing is I'm not just saying any dude can just decide in the moment that they're just not going to resist the pain or just apply some mindfulness technique to stop resisting in that moment, no. I imagine it requires immense cultivation of skill to acquire that level of mindfulness ability such as to not resist severe pain such as in a torture scenario. I think it is perhaps achievable.

[Yimpa]

10 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

You are confusing pain with suffering.  Everyone feels pain.  

 

[Breakingthewall]

The question is: do you want to live without suffering? like a plant? watching with a beatified smile how your 5-year-old daughters are raped and tortured? that is, you deny being human, because you are afraid of the pain that being human means. cowardice.

there is nothing wrong with suffering, it is a characteristic of being human. you have to fight and suffer, but consciously. that's the difference. not to retire to a monastery to be fed like a baby to escape suffering

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

The question is: do you want to live without suffering? like a plant? watching with a beatified smile how your 5-year-old daughters are raped and tortured? that is, you deny being human, because you are afraid of the pain that being human means. cowardice.

 

The mystics of this world were no "plants". Some founded world-religions, and acted courageously and fearlessly in the face of oppression and violence. A lot of them were persecuted, some even executed, and many fearlessly stood their ground to the very (and often gruesome) end. 

They were no weak personalities or plants, but were connected to their own innermost center, which flowed through them and gave them strength, courage and fearlessness. They were grounded in their Real Being, knowing themselves to be indestructable at their core.

Do you honestly think that having access to divine bliss hinders one in acting in the right way when it is called for?

Water by the River 

PS: And as explained in the thread above, there is a difference between bodily pain and psychological suffering (or resistance to what is here and now). The lacking, or at least highly highly reduced psychological suffering or resistance to what is, does not stop one acting in the right way, but rather empowers you to do so with the strength of your very True Core.

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

there is nothing wrong with suffering, it is a characteristic of being human. you have to fight and suffer, but consciously. that's the difference. not to retire to a monastery to be fed like a baby to escape suffering

There is nothing wrong with reducing suffering.

[Spiritedness]

@Carl-Richard I think that putting energy to purposefully reduce suffering robs of you of the other experiences/goals in life you could otherwise pursue if you didn't use that energy up. Sure, you can do your self-care on the side, but it shouldn't be the main focus! Also, kind of off-topic and since you're a moderator, could you help me with a problem I have? For some reason I cannot send DMs to people! It says I'm only allowed to send 0 messages/day.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Spiritedness

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Spiritedness said:

@Carl-Richard I think that putting energy to purposefully reduce suffering robs of you of the other experiences/goals in life you could otherwise pursue if you didn't use that energy up. Sure, you can do your self-care on the side, but it shouldn't be the main focus!

At some point, ending suffering is seen as preferable over any singular life goal/experience. 

 

12 minutes ago, Spiritedness said:

Also, kind of off-topic and since you're a moderator, could you help me with a problem I have? For some reason I cannot send DMs to people! It says I'm only allowed to send 0 messages/day.

I think it's a new member thing. It will disappear over time.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Some founded world-religions, and acted courageously and fearlessly in the face of oppression and violence

those who acted like this were not trying to avoid suffering. in fact, they suffered a lot

[koops]

Maybe the point is not to avoid suffering.

Maybe our focus should be in the pursuit of something that is deep inside you and suffer if its needed.

If you have a higher purpose, something meaningful to fight for, suffering is more bearable.
 

In fact, when you are young, you should try to put yourself in situations where there is a potential for suffering.

Traveling alone to an undeveloped country, going out with that girl that can end up breaking your heart, starting that business that is likely to fail, go to that party alone and try to pick up girls sober, trying psychedelics, go hitchhiking...
 

Suffering is what make you grow the most, probably way more than meditating and reading Eckhart Tolle.

But is not one or the other.  Everything has value.
 

The fear of suffering can be worse than suffering.

 

 

[Water by the River]

 

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

those who acted like this were not trying to avoid suffering. in fact, they suffered a lot

Physical/bodily pain is always possible.

Buddha? Laozi? Shankara? Nagarjuna?  Padmasambhava? Milarepa? Tilopa? Yeshe Tsogyal?

Was that the meak "I don't care, I shut up, and go back to my cave crowd" , or did they leave their mark on humanity, in the face of resistance? Something that still resonates in the core of humanity even today, millenia after? Something that for example no Roman or Indian Emperor can claim for himself.

I doubt that they could have done what they did with still substantial/normal psychological suffering going on. Would have been, well, not so attractive for their audience. And considering what they wrote, they were connected to their True Core.

 

Water by the River