Dissociation because of spiritual thinking

[Ima Freeman]

After reading about Yoga and doing spiritual practices, my view of reality got transformed quite radically.
It is said, that I'm not the body nor the mind and I contemplated about it more and more.
Meditation and other mindfulness practices revealed to me how automatic my mind and my body operate.
 
Recently this lead to emotionally troubling thoughts about having no free will at all.
Thoughts like: "body and mind are doing their thing and I am only able to watch it"
Even the things that get typed here are just my monkey minds ramblings typed into a machine by my body.
I got a sense now, that I'm in a deterministic prison. 

Back then my perspective was that I am free to do what I want, travel the world, think, create,...

Why this is such a bad thing for me? I'm not feeling well in the past weeks. Furthermore, meditation shows me how tiny my level of consciousness is.

What are your thoughts about this?

[Oeaohoo]

4 minutes ago, Ima Freeman said:

Recently this lead to emotionally troubling thoughts about having no free will at all.

Yes, Gurdjieff was right to say that in most cases “man is a machine”. That doesn’t mean that you have no free will though because like you yourself have said you are not the body that is trapped in this matrix of manifestation. Your very existence is an expression of the infinite freedom of God, which is also your true nature.

6 minutes ago, Ima Freeman said:

I got a sense now, that I'm in a deterministic prison.

Then it’s time for a prison break-out! That is basically what spiritual awakening is after all. You have to realise you are in prison before you can break out though which is what is happening to you now.

24 minutes ago, Ima Freeman said:

Back then my perspective was that I am free to do what I want, travel the world, think, create,...

You are still free to do all these things. However, you might be realising that even so many of our ordinary desires are mechanically inherited from culture… Maybe some of these desires are not appropriate for you anymore.

16 minutes ago, Ima Freeman said:

Why this is such a bad thing for me? I'm not feeling well in the past weeks. Furthermore, meditation shows me how tiny my level of consciousness is.

This all sounds like quite a typical Dark Night of the Soul and an awakening to just how asleep you have been throughout your life so far. Of course, this is not intended as a criticism of you specifically as almost everybody is asleep…

16 minutes ago, Ima Freeman said:

What are your thoughts about this?

You may not be interested but it can be useful to contemplate the problem of fate and determinism from a metaphysical perspective. It is significant that Fate is often associated with feminine figures: for example, in Greco-Roman mythology the three Fates are all women and the Norns (Fates) in Nordic mythology are all goddesses of destiny. A late reference to this can be seen in Shakespeare’s Macbeth with the three prophetic witches. Women represent Nature, the sublunary realm, the world of illusion (Maya) and the physical power of manifestation (Shakti).

It is possible to overcome Nature herself, and along with her all fate and determinism! The virile masculine Hero was often conceptualised in antiquity as the one who overcame fate and the wheel of causality. The meaning of Buddha attaining to ultimate Liberation from Samsara (the wheel of causality and the cycle of life and death) is really no different. Realising how stuck you have been in the deterministic world should be an exciting call to: Be the hero!

”Become what you Are”, as Pindar said…

[Kksd74628]

@Ima Freeman

Everything is automatical, you're right. However, because you don't have sense of control nor sense of lack of control you have and don't have control simultaneously. You want control only, because you don't trust that universe knows better what you want than your limited ego. Because you never had control nothing changes and you keep doing what you wanted. It's paradox like everything else. I am living 24/7 on state I can recognize being on automatical process and it is awesome when you let go the fear and negative assumptions of it.

-joNi-

[Aaron p]

2 hours ago, Ima Freeman said:

After reading about Yoga and doing spiritual practices, my view of reality got transformed quite radically.
It is said, that I'm not the body nor the mind and I contemplated about it more and more.
Meditation and other mindfulness practices revealed to me how automatic my mind and my body operate.
 
Recently this lead to emotionally troubling thoughts about having no free will at all.
Thoughts like: "body and mind are doing their thing and I am only able to watch it"
Even the things that get typed here are just my monkey minds ramblings typed into a machine by my body.
I got a sense now, that I'm in a deterministic prison. 

Back then my perspective was that I am free to do what I want, travel the world, think, create,...

Why this is such a bad thing for me? I'm not feeling well in the past weeks. Furthermore, meditation shows me how tiny my level of consciousness is.

What are your thoughts about this?

@Ima Freeman yo...playa. check it out. As far as I'm aware free will doesn't exist. But this truth is a twisty one because it goes so deep. If you decide, "you know what...fuck this, I'm fat, I'm lazy, I'm poor and I'm a bum...let me revolutionise my entire life and get money, pussy and God." And if you proceeded to do those things (which you can)...that too will have been an automatic reaction to something someone said to you...like pressing a light switch on a wall...a signal that can open your mind to the possibility of awesomeness...then your positive choice and reaction to it after deep intellectual deliberation (because of your pre-existing contemplative mind-type)...all of this happens robotically at very deep levels. It's a strange one...if you were to make a choice to change your life, you can...you can choose to do whatever you want If you recognise that you can choose...but strangely, the free ability to choose is simply a deeper level of a predetermined, inability to choose. Whatever you choose, no matter how free, how wild, how spontaneous...it's an automatic process. But this isn't limiting, it's a challenge, see how far you can stretch your predetermined choice 

 

This one is incredibly deep

Edited June 16, 2022 by Aaron p

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Ima Freeman said:

Recently this lead to emotionally troubling thoughts about having no free will at all.
Thoughts like: "body and mind are doing their thing and I am only able to watch it"
Even the things that get typed here are just my monkey minds ramblings typed into a machine by my body.
I got a sense now, that I'm in a deterministic prison. 

Back then my perspective was that I am free to do what I want, travel the world, think, create,...

Why this is such a bad thing for me? I'm not feeling well in the past weeks.

This is a dangerous trap. You are creating conceptual stories about not having free will, but your experience of life is not that.

Be careful about taking on such spiritual narratives. Ground yourself in direct experience rather than what some guru says.

Has anything in your direct experience changed?

If spirituality is making you less functional then that's your clue that you're probably doing it wrong.

Your body and mind aren't just something you watch. They are you.

[RickyFitts]

On the one hand we're led to believe that we're everything, the whole universe, and on the other we're led to believe that we're NOT the body and mind - this is clearly a contradiction in terms, because body and mind are part of the manifestation, too. It seems to me that you very much ARE the body and mind, it's just that you're not JUST body and mind.

[Matthew85]

4 hours ago, Ima Freeman said:

It is said, that I'm not the body nor the mind and I contemplated about it more and more.

@Ima Freeman Be very discerning in adopting beliefs of others. There are many well meaning teachers and gurus offering truths mixed with very distorted information. Cultivate your own intuition and critical thinking skills and give much less authority to people outside of yourself. 

 

[Leo Gura]

Another point:

If you think that you are the watcher or witness, as some Neo-Advaita teachers like to teach, then yeah, you will start to feel dissociated because you've created a subtle duality between you and world. There is a deeper, truly nondual realization in which you realize that you are both the witness and the objects being witnessed. You are both emptiness and form.

Be ware of these subtle dualities. They are quite common because most spiritual people have not awoken deeply enough.

If someone is telling you that you are the watcher of the dream, but not the dream content itself, they are not fully awake.

[UNZARI]

@Leo Gura just curious, do you have anything to say about dissociation itself? I’ve experienced it many times throughout my life drug induced and sober. Idk if it’s genetic or what but it’s such a strange state of consciousness, it can feel wonderful and calming or absolutely terrifying. Do you think it has any existential dimensions?

[Terell Kirby]

6 hours ago, Ima Freeman said:

Thoughts like: "body and mind are doing their thing and I am only able to watch it"

Truth is, you are in control of your body, mind and actions … as well as body minds and actions of the entire universe. Going deep enough you will realize that your free will (as God) is Infinite. Question is, will you be able to take on that level of ownership and responsibility as the Creator of life itself?

[Matthew85]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If someone is telling you that you are the watcher of the dream, but not the dream content itself, they are not fully awake.

@Leo Gura Excellent point that is missing from their teachings. This reminds me of a dream I had a few years ago. I often receive profound messages in my dreams. I was in this house when a woman appeared. She was tall, slender with long white hair and ice blue Asian shaped eyes. She said I want to show you something and walked out onto the balcony, so I followed. She said look. I looked out and saw an incredible view of mountains, tree's, flowers and waterfalls. A truly majestic beautiful landscape. As I was viewing it, she pointed to my head and said you think you are in here, when you are everything you are observing. It was a very profound insight that was being communicated.  

Edited June 17, 2022 by Matthew85

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, UNZARI said:

@Leo Gura just curious, do you have anything to say about dissociation itself? I’ve experienced it many times throughout my life drug induced and sober. Idk if it’s genetic or what but it’s such a strange state of consciousness, it can feel wonderful and calming or absolutely terrifying. Do you think it has any existential dimensions?

I don't experience dissociation so I don't know.

[AtheisticNonduality]

I have extensive experience (non-experience?) with dissociation. Might write something here tomorrow.

[The Mystical Man]

It's not true that you don't have free will at all. It's just that your will is limited. Ouspensky wrote about how man is a machine and how much work is required to become free. Part of spiritual work is to open up choice. Observation is the key technique. You observe your body, thoughts, and emotions, but that doesn't mean that you are not your body, thoughts, and emotions. 

[Recursoinominado]

On 16/06/2022 at 9:30 PM, Leo Gura said:

If you think that you are the watcher or witness, as some Neo-Advaita teachers like to teach, then yeah, you will start to feel dissociated because you've created a subtle duality between you and world. There is a deeper, truly nondual realization in which you realize that you are both the witness and the objects being witnessed. You are both emptiness and form.

Be ware of these subtle dualities. They are quite common because most spiritual people have not awoken deeply enough.

If someone is telling you that you are the watcher of the dream, but not the dream content itself, they are not fully awake.

You should make a video about this point. This is a really common and dangerous stick point.

Most popular teachers lead their students to confuse enlightenment with dissociation.

[Ima Freeman]

@Oeaohoo @Kksd74628 @Aaron p @Leo Gura @RickyFitts @Matthew85 @Terell Kirby @The Mystical Man

Thank you all very much for your answers

[Ima Freeman]

On 16.6.2022 at 10:08 PM, Oeaohoo said:

Then it’s time for a prison break-out! That is basically what spiritual awakening is after all. You have to realise you are in prison before you can break out though which is what is happening to you now.

That seems like on of the two only ways to solve this dilemma. The other being to fall more asleep again. 

[Ima Freeman]

On 16.6.2022 at 10:21 PM, Kksd74628 said:

@Ima Freeman

Everything is automatical, you're right. However, because you don't have sense of control nor sense of lack of control you have and don't have control simultaneously. You want control only, because you don't trust that universe knows better what you want than your limited ego. Because you never had control nothing changes and you keep doing what you wanted. It's paradox like everything else. I am living 24/7 on state I can recognize being on automatical process and it is awesome when you let go the fear and negative assumptions of it.

-joNi-

But there is lack, suffering and fear all the time in my life. 

I want control, because I believed in the past that I am working on increasing it. And the act of increasing control is little wonder if suffering happened and can happen anytime soon.
Another problem is that I have no control over fear and negative assumptions, if my mind is autonomous. In my experience the come over and over again.

[Ima Freeman]

On 17.6.2022 at 0:18 AM, Aaron p said:

@Ima Freeman 

Whatever you choose, no matter how free, how wild, how spontaneous...it's an automatic process. But this isn't limiting, it's a challenge, see how far you can stretch your predetermined choice 

New things are happening. In that way I'm not trapped.

[Ima Freeman]

On 17.6.2022 at 1:12 AM, Leo Gura said:

This is a dangerous trap. You are creating conceptual stories about not having free will, but your experience of life is not that.

Be careful about taking on such spiritual narratives. Ground yourself in direct experience rather than what some guru says.

Has anything in your direct experience changed?

If spirituality is making you less functional then that's your clue that you're probably doing it wrong.

Your body and mind aren't just something you watch. They are you.

I got the notion of "I am not the body, I am not the mind" from a guru, a very famous one, that's right

My experience does seem to confirm this. I become aware of my body and mind working without instructions increasingly often. That doesn't mean that I feel dissociated from them all the time. Mostly I am deep asleep. It is a thought, that is triggering it.

Don't you notice your mind and body doing things autonomously?

What changed for me is, that I became more aware

If I am body and mind, how can it be, that I can watch them doing things on their own?
My identity, likes, dislikes, words, etc. are my minds work
My bodies actions stem from instincts or from the minds intentions
I become aware of them