Head Empty, No Thoughts: Mentally Checking Out or Hitting a Stage Yellow Wall

[soos_mite_ah]

So basically, I'm really done with overthinking, analyzing, and modelling and I find myself just wanting to be and not do much a lot of the time. I feel like part of this has to do with me being bombarded with information to where I'm just done at this point and this is my way of mentally checking out or dissassociating in a minor way. But could this also be a symptom of me getting over my over thinking/ analyzing and, well not to sound pretentious, "transcending the mind"? 

I wrote about this much more in my journal: 

18 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

Yellow (1:38:00- 1:45:00) 

Yellow is still stuck in duality. There is no possibility for deep mysticism because yellow is too stuck in the thinking mind.

Yellow is not ready to escape the mind. They aren't ready to do that yet because they are still so fascinated with different models  and concepts. Basically they can be unwilling to transcend models and concepts (1:38:56)

Can get bogged down in complex analysis (1:39:53).

April 2022: I don't find myself being dragged down by complex analysis or being in my head as much. I joke about this with my friends but I feel like lately I'm in my *head empty, no thoughts* era.  I feel like a lot of this notion resonates witht the people in my life who feel like they have waaay too much going on in their heads and just mentally wants to check out for a little bit. I feel like it also relates to the whole bimbo trend that is on TikTok. I wrote about this a while back and even though I'm not extremely drawn to this aesthetic, I feel like I resonate with it emotionally lol: 

On 2/26/2021 at 9:15 PM, soos_mite_ah said:

There is this trend of bimbofication that is on the rise on tiktok. I noticed this trend keep popping up and I found it rather interesting. This video breaks it down pretty well and was pretty insightful. To summarize it's mainly a bunch of women who want to reclaim their femininity and own their more feminine interests without having people bring them down. The  modern bimbo is also characterized as a radical feminist and lefist which I find as an interesting take on the trope. She is there for the girls, the gays, and the theys and she expresses her disdain by capitalism by taking money from rich men. She is also pro sex work and doesn't slut shame other women. Her stupidity is often played out in a satirical sense but there is an emphasis on emotional intelligence over IQ. I think this can best be seen in the himbo trope. A himbo refers to a guy bimbo and is characterized by a guy who has no fucking clue what's happening. He is an idiot but he drinks enough respect women juice to not treat people like trash. He has emotional intelligence  and is a well meaning guy. He is mainly harmless because he is too stupid to play mind games and manipulate people in the first place.

And to me, I would characterize my "head empty, no thoughts* era as one where I stop ruminating about things and just let myself be in the present moment. It's also about me making the conscious decision to not stress or overthink and overanalyze things because at some point, it doesn't produce anymore insights rather it just becomes a marathon of mental gymnastics that leaves you exhausted mentally and emotionally. And at this point, I would say it's fairly easy for me to meditate for a lengthy amount of time and see it something that is purely restful rather than something that I need to work at. If anything, I need those *head empty, no thoughts* part of my day to function as a person lol. 

I don't think I have "transcended the mind." I wouldn't dare say that I have dealt with the issues that come with stage yellow sufficiently enough to be beyond that stage. Part of me wonders if I am actually dealing with this or if this is a response to me being mentally exhausted by the stuff going on in the world and just being a university student who is ready to graduate instead of being surrounded by information 24/7. I will say that being at stage green/yellow through my college years has caused me to take in a lot academically and find a lot of fulfillment in being a student. I feel like if I was at any other shade of the other stages or if I came to college prematurely that it just wouldn't hit in the same way. Another part of me wonders if this is me hitting some type of stage yellow wall that is coinciding well with me transitioning into life after college. I guess only time can tell and that I graduate and go into this next stage of my life to see if this is manifesting in a healthy way or if this is just me dissassociating from information overload.

Because tbh, when I think of emptying my mind and how I sometimes feel when I do it, I feel like this clip from Spongebob and I highly doubt that's highly consicous stage turquoise lol. 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoExamples/MentalWorld#video-link 

[Zigzag Idiot]

I need to re-watch Leo's lecture on Yellow. It;s been a while since I've watched it.

@soos_mite_ah Respectfully, I think your not giving yellow enough credit. Here's another take.

 

Yellow

The transition from the First Tier of Consciousness to the Yellow level of the
Second Tier is a “momentous leap” according to Clare Graves (1974, 2005), when
the individual realizes that equally distributing resources among all people and
expecting that all humans are equally good and loving creates more problems
than it solves. This leap may occur when life conditions change to seriously
threaten survival, and the individual/species has to relearn survival (Graves,2002).
There are currently a small number of individuals who operate from the
Second Tier of existence, but the species as a whole has not yet evolved to this
level (Ooten, 2010).
Adherence to the favored group in the Green level is transformed into acceptance
of all people for who they are, where they are in the Second Tier. This acceptance
allows individuals at the Yellow level of consciousness to speak to the listening
of others, regardless of their level. Chaos is seen as part of the natural order
and imperative for change (Graves, 2005). These individuals are highly flexible
in their thinking and are able to see from a perspective that is larger than all
the levels of the First Tier combined (Graves, 2005). The reality of existence is
emphasized and interconnected with spirituality. The individual transcends
self-centered, instinctual and emotional drives to a way of being that expresses
self to the benefit of self and others (Ooten, Unpublished). Individuals at this
level live from the knowing of the interconnectivity of all of humanity, and that
what affects the individual, affects the whole. The focus becomes the continued
existence of all of life (not just humanity), using whatever means are appropriate
given place and time (Beck, 2006). Methods and thinking are fluid, adapting
to conditions. If democracy is appropriate, democracy is used. If consensus
is appropriate, consensus is used. Technology is highly utilized for self and all
of humanity to rapidly network and interconnect with others at all levels of
development, as well as to quickly produce solutions and resources for existential
problems. People at this level can also express a level of arrogance about their
broader perspectives and understandings (Graves, 2005; Beck, 2006). Individuals
at the Yellow level of consciousness are motivated by the continuation of
existence and use acceptance to ensure the continuation of life (Graves, 1974).

from; http://www.consciousdynamicsllc.com/home/levels_of_consciousness.html

[Preety_India]

Borderline personality disorder.

 

[puporing]

It may be a beginning : ). Only you would know this is happening. (hint, you may notice that nobody can truly understand you anymore in your personal life lawl).

You value being-ness more than much of anything else after your own direct experience. This is when you demand the absolute truth, like deconstructing everything (existing paradigms, systems, conditionings, moral concepts, etc), breaking down boundaries between yourself and "others", absolute truth/love/god realization, transcending your ego and the dream you're in. You can understand where people are at (on the SD stages). Orienting yourself in such a way that integrates the truths that you've realized to aid in the collective raising of consciousness (or not lol), etc. The way you live/think about your life would totally change as a result. 

All this may take some time to realize and integrate and depends on what you're open to over time. As well there will be shadows from the previous stages. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by puporing

[itachi uchiha]

If u  see everything as a system ,then u are yellow 

[hyruga]

I am still at stage beige because if I don't earn money, I won't have enough to eat and survive.

But anyway, as far as I know, no human is older than 123 years old. So within the next 123 years from now, all of us reading this in 2022 will physically die so stop overthinking.

[Carl-Richard]

Quote

Yellow is still stuck in duality. There is no possibility for deep mysticism because yellow is too stuck in the thinking mind.

Yellow is not ready to escape the mind. They aren't ready to do that yet because they are still so fascinated with different models  and concepts. Basically they can be unwilling to transcend models and concepts (1:38:56)

Can get bogged down in complex analysis (1:39:53).

Leo has been criticized by Don Beck in the past for misunderstanding Turquoise and conflating it with mysticism (Ken Wilber's contributions to SDi also confirms this), which is what I think is happening here when he is describing the limitations of Yellow. That said, I don't think mysticism is necessarily unrelated to SD development, and I've tried to explain this here:

 

On 26.3.2022 at 6:09 AM, Carl-Richard said:

The way I see it is that "mysticism" (i.e. having a significant propensity towards the "being" aspect of reality) shouldn't be treated as something that is inherent to a particular developmental stage (at least in the case of SD), but instead either as its own developmental domain ("line" in SDi terms) or something that is only softly correlated with higher development.

To elaborate on this last point: if we go by modern Western society, mysticism tends to become more common at Green and up, but again, it's only a soft correlation and not an obligatory step, even for Turquoise. Transcending scientific materialism (Orange) requires investigating many different perspectives, which by just sheer statistics increases the likelihood of discovering mysticism (of course cognitive flexibility also helps with that process), but still again, it's not a fully stage-dependent trait according to SD.

So how do I define Turquoise then if not "Yellow + mysticism"? I struggled with this question for a while, but Nahm put it in a way that seems to make sense (paraphrasing): "Turquoise is when you take the lessons of Yellow and properly share it with the world." In other words, the lessons of holism, the systems view and unconditional care is properly integrated into your individuality, and then your next job is to integrate it into the collective (as Turquoise is a collectivist stage).

In this sense, Sadhguru is certainly Turquoise. Just look at his global-scale influence on deeply holistic approaches to environmental issues. His new Save Soil project is the pinnacle of Turquoise systems thinking: prioritizing and understanding the complex interconnections of the Earth-Humanity system and distributing this knowledge across several social channels; changing public opinion through mass-scale media appearances on podcasts like Joe Rogan and TV morning shows, changing policy through talks at the UN and various government meetings etc. What the guys at Game B are doing through blog posts, Sadhguru is doing through wide-scale systemic influence, exactly because he has had over 30 years to integrate it and manifest it in the real world.

Btw, when I say "prioritizing and understanding the complex interconnections of the Earth-Humanity system", I'm talking about a fully articulated systems understanding (like Game B or Fritjof Capra) and not simply an intuitive, heart-based understanding of say Green or Purple. It's more sophisticated than the run-of-the-mill environmentalism of say Leonardo DiCaprio or Greta Thunberg. You truly get this while listening to his Joe Rogan appearance.

 

[Raptorsin7]

@soos_mite_ah You can try listening to some quality spiritual teachers and see if their approach resonates, or you can attend a meditation retreat and get a more intense taste of genuine spirituality.

If you believe you are exhausting your current stage of development then maybe psychidelics could be worth exploring. They will give you a new perspective and maybe you'll get more clarity about what's next

[soos_mite_ah]

@Carl-Richard I really appreciate your comment and I think there is a lot of good stuff there. So basically from what I'm gathering is that Turquoise isn't necessarily Yellow + mysticism. Instead Turquoise is more of an applied Yellow that may or may not encorporate mysticism. Does that sound right? 

I guess I don't really see myself past Yellow and in Turquoise because I don't particularly see myself dipping into mysticism just yet. I will say that I did have that conception of Turquoise just being a more mystical Yellow where everything gets dismantled. But then again, even when I was in stage green where people tend to jump to the hippy dippy stuff, sure I was intrigued by that stuff, but I wasn't super woo woo. I feel like I was more of the progressive, social sciency type instead. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I didn't find myself being super spiritual when I was getting into Green from Orange but I did see myself getting into it a little bit. And I wonder what that would look like going forward in the next stages when I'm going Yellow to Turquoise and if there would be any parallels given my general tendencies. 

On 4/9/2022 at 5:42 AM, Raptorsin7 said:

You can try listening to some quality spiritual teachers and see if their approach resonates, or you can attend a meditation retreat and get a more intense taste of genuine spirituality.

If you believe you are exhausting your current stage of development then maybe psychidelics could be worth exploring. They will give you a new perspective and maybe you'll get more clarity about what's next

I think that would be a good action item to look into. Personally, I'm not ready for psychedelics just yet. Gotta let that frontal lobe develop first lol. But a meditation retreat is definitely on my to do list and I don't think it would hurt to look into a few teachers here and there to see what resonates. 

On 4/9/2022 at 2:08 AM, puporing said:

It may be a beginning : ). Only you would know this is happening. (hint, you may notice that nobody can truly understand you anymore in your personal life lawl). 

I feel like I'm already there. I don't feel so angsty about people not understanding me rather it's more along the lines of "we're in different places in our lives and we've had different experiences and that is perfectly ok because no one can truly understand anyone without embodiment." But at the same time, it is said that the higher stages include and transcend the lower stages. For instance, even if you aren't at for example stage red, you can still empathize with them on their human experience without acting in the same way. I find myself in that position a lot where it isn't difficult for me to relate or empathize with people so as a result, the lonliness that is associating with nO oNE unDeRStanDS isn't really there.  

On 4/9/2022 at 2:08 AM, puporing said:

You value being-ness more than much of anything else after your own direct experience. This is when you demand the absolute truth, like deconstructing everything (existing paradigms, systems, conditionings, moral concepts, etc), breaking down boundaries between yourself and "others", absolute truth/love/god realization, transcending your ego and the dream you're in. You can understand where people are at (on the SD stages). Orienting yourself in such a way that integrates the truths that you've realized to aid in the collective raising of consciousness (or not lol), etc. The way you live/think about your life would totally change as a result. 

I feel like a lot of the framework and values I have for a good spiritual life (and life in general) is already there and I'm just at a point where I need to step into it and embody it going forward. I do find myself questioning things from the quality of my direct experiences and sources a lot as well but I do think that it's just the tip of the ice berg and isn't in the scale of **lets go and dismantle the concept of space and time.** 

On 4/9/2022 at 2:08 AM, puporing said:

All this may take some time to realize and integrate and depends on what you're open to over time. As well there will be shadows from the previous stages. 

I feel like I've been in somewhere in Yellow for the past 4 years now, whether it is late Green/ early Yellow, or plain Yellow mixed in with other shadows from previous stages. As a result, I've been focusing a lot of my attention on dealing with a lot of those shadows so I could be a healthier, more solid version of Yellow. Then again, I could really benefit more on just diving into Yellow more instead of merely dealing with the stuff that is covering it up if that makes sense. Goes back to what @Zigzag Idiot had to say. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by soos_mite_ah

[puporing]

Well at the end of the day it's all a model and words. It's helpful to see the potentials and possible roadmaps, but not very helpful when alot of attention is put on "getting somewhere" instead of where we are now.

What directions do you want to go into? What excites you now? Is it from a genuine place or conditioning around me? (Not asking for your answers here, just pointing).

Those are the more important questions for me each day. You should trust/listen to that voice in you, more than what anyone says here. : )

And then just go live it! With no apology for the path you're taking.

Edited April 13, 2022 by puporing

[thisintegrated]

52 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

@Carl-Richard I really appreciate your comment and I think there is a lot of good stuff there. So basically from what I'm gathering is that Turquoise isn't necessarily Yellow + mysticism. Instead Turquoise is more of an applied Yellow that may or may not encorporate mysticism. Does that sound right? 

I guess I don't really see myself past Yellow and in Turquoise because I don't particularly see myself dipping into mysticism just yet. I will say that I did have that conception of Turquoise just being a more mystical Yellow where everything gets dismantled. But then again, even when I was in stage green where people tend to jump to the hippy dippy stuff, sure I was intrigued by that stuff, but I wasn't super woo woo. I feel like I was more of the progressive, social sciency type instead. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I didn't find myself being super spiritual when I was getting into Green from Orange but I did see myself getting into it a little bit. And I wonder what that would look like going forward in the next stages when I'm going Yellow to Turquoise and if there would be any parallels given my general tendencies. 

I think that would be a good action item to look into. Personally, I'm not ready for psychedelics just yet. Gotta let that frontal lobe develop first lol. But a meditation retreat is definitely on my to do list and I don't think it would hurt to look into a few teachers here and there to see what resonates. 

I feel like I'm already there. I don't feel so angsty about people not understanding me rather it's more along the lines of "we're in different places in our lives and we've had different experiences and that is perfectly ok because no one can truly understand anyone without embodiment." But at the same time, it is said that the higher stages include and transcend the lower stages. For instance, even if you aren't at for example stage red, you can still empathize with them on their human experience without acting in the same way. I find myself in that position a lot where it isn't difficult for me to relate or empathize with people so as a result, the lonliness that is associating with nO oNE unDeRStanDS isn't really there.  

I feel like a lot of the framework and values I have for a good spiritual life (and life in general) is already there and I'm just at a point where I need to step into it and embody it going forward. I do find myself questioning things from the quality of my direct experiences and sources a lot as well but I do think that it's just the tip of the ice berg and isn't in the scale of **lets go and dismantle the concept of space and time.** 

I feel like I've been in somewhere in Yellow for the past 4 years now, whether it is late Green/ early Yellow, or plain Yellow mixed in with other shadows from previous stages. As a result, I've been focusing a lot of my attention on dealing with a lot of those shadows so I could be a healthier, more solid version of Yellow. Then again, I could really benefit more on just diving into Yellow more instead of merely dealing with the stuff that is covering it up if that makes sense. Goes back to what @Zigzag Idiot had to say. 

Careful with Carl, he's got some controversial views on Turquoise which I, and Leo, disagree with.

 

imo, "transcending the mind" does, very accurately, describe the main thing Turquoise is known for.  It's a long road to get there from Yellow, but you start by having "moments" of transcendence.  Moments of preferring the ""Turquoise state"" over the ""Yellow state"" (for lack of a better term).  For me, there are periods when it's easy and comes naturally, and periods when it just doesn't happen as often.

The easiest way I've found to determine if I'm more closely aligned with Yellow or Turquoise in the moment is by just seeing how active I am on the forum.  The Turquoise me doesn't care about the forum at all, and it just seems like a waste of time.  Feels like intellectual masturbation.  Nothing to gain here.  Even if I somehow improve my understanding of things by being here, it's of no value.  All I need can be found within, but sometimes I "lose it" and come back here for pointless dopamine hits.  In "Turquoise mode", I am so happy and content being completely alone, with no media or stimulation.  The moment I start to write, the intellect engages and the perfection of silence is broken.  Turquoise people can often feel euphoric for no reason.  As Sadhguru says (paraphrasing) "every cell in my body is bursting with joy/happiness 24/7".

 

That said, I've done psychedelics many times, I've been doing spiritual work for a long time, and I'm much faster at this than most people.  If you're really at Yellow, that's impressive, but statistically unlikely.  Especially if you didn't go through a "super-spiritual" period at stage Green.  But I only skimmed through your post.

Edited April 13, 2022 by thisintegrated

[puporing]

1 hour ago, soos_mite_ah said:

I find myself in that position a lot where it isn't difficult for me to relate or empathize with people so as a result, the lonliness that is associating with nO oNE unDeRStanDS isn't really there. 

I didn't mean as a "negative" when I said no one in your life gets you/it. It's actually perfect and all good (deep down), and yes one is at peace with where people are at usually. You can empathize because they are where you've been. Being occasionally frustrated is also okay and just part of you trying so hard wanting to "help" someone see beyond/grasp something truer, and relieve them from their suffering/limited self. With a balance of accepting people where they're at. And occasionally/often demonized/misunderstood for what you say especially when it's very divergent from the mainstream paradigms. But this all could be done a bit automatically and doesn't need to be some "plan". You could also have a bunch of awakenings and continue life as it was (externally) or that seems no different from the outside. All depends on what you're called to and choose each moment.

Also you can have awakenings but still blind spots in certain areas you're not willing/ready to deconstruct..yet.

Edited April 13, 2022 by puporing

[soos_mite_ah]

29 minutes ago, puporing said:

I didn't mean as a "negative" when I said no one in your life gets you/it. It's actually perfect and all good (deep down), and yes one is at peace with where people are at usually. You can empathize because they are where you've been. Being occasionally frustrated is also okay and just part of you trying so hard wanting to "help" someone see beyond/grasp something truer, and relieve them from their suffering/limited self. With a balance of accepting people where they're at. And occasionally/often demonized/misunderstood for what you say especially when it's very divergent from the mainstream paradigms. But this all could be done a bit automatically and doesn't need to be some "plan". You could also have a bunch of awakenings and continue life as it was or that seems no different from the outside. All depends on what you're called to and choose each moment.

100% agree with all of this. I honestly didn't mean for it to come off as particularly negative. I was intending to illustrate on how the notion that "no one will understand me" doesn't carry the typical negative charge that most people associate it with rather for me the notion carries a neutral connotation as far as my experiences go. That said, there isn't anything wrong with being frustrated with this type of thing. It's just part of the process sometimes. 

1 hour ago, puporing said:

Well at the end of the day it's all a model and words. It's helpful to see the potentials and possible roadmaps, but not very helpful when alot of attention is put on "getting somewhere" instead of where we are now.

What directions do you want to go into? What excites you now? Is it from a genuine place or conditioning around me? (Not asking for your answers here, just pointing).

I really like this. In my original journal post, I did write about how I was taking a step back from spirituality and how that as a result caused me to step back from SD and create goals for myself independent of it. I think it was very beneficial for me and it has helped me ground myself in the questions you explained aove. And I just want to acknowledge that. 

48 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

imo, "transcending the mind" does, very accurately, describe the main thing Turquoise is known for.  It's a long road to get there from Yellow, but you start by having "moments" of transcendence.  Moments of preferring the ""Turquoise state"" over the ""Yellow state"" (for lack of a better term).  For me, there are periods when it's easy and comes naturally, and periods when it just doesn't happen as often.

That's valid and I can see how that would work. I suppose my lack of psychedelic experience does contribute to me only scratching the very surface of transcending different mental models. However, I did mention in a previous comment that this is something that I'm not quite ready to try just yet. 

[soos_mite_ah]

I think a huge problem with stages such as Yellow and Turquoise is because since they aren't very mainstream and the framework for those stages are still being created, you don't see a variety of examples in casual settings. 

For example, with stage Orange, as a society we had to put in the framework for it through things like different scientific discoveries and the intellectual philosophies of the enlightenment era. WIthout that framework, the Kardashians for instance would probably be burnt at the stake or won't exist all together. But just because you're Orange, it doesn't mean you're going to be Steven Hawking Orange, rather you could Tai Lopez Orange What I mean by that is that you need to have the complex stuff in a stage come first before it gets integrated into society to where it becomes mainstream enough to have variations within the stages and to where you see the stage in a more casual setting.

I think Green is  also a good example of this because you don't have to be a full on hippy to be substantially Green. I know plenty of Green people who don't particulary resonate with that particular crowd because they see holes in their logic or they just express their Green energy differently but they still do have similar vibes. For example. most of my friends are pretty Green but aren't full on hippies because they have a well integrated stage Orange and because they simply have other ways of expressing the same values (like opting for expanding their emotional awareness and acceptance in therapy instead of a heart chakra meditation for instance without discrediting the later. Or by seeing the holes in the logic of some anti vaxx spiritual people while still seeing the vaildity their teachings/ values).  

With Yellow and Turquoise on the other hand, the different variations haven't formed just yet and I think a lot of the mysticism is the intellectual framework we are still navigating. Maybe there will be a time (in a few hundred years, not anytime soon lol) when delving into psychedelics and hours of contemplation won't be necessary because Turquoise is mainstream and it's the default. Maybe there will be a time where you can just be a stage Turquoise himbo and just live your best life. I think it can be beneficial to think about what Turquoise can look like without the path to mysticism but at the same time, that path at the moment is largely necessay because again... need to establish the framework. 

[puporing]

21 minutes ago, soos_mite_ah said:

I suppose my lack of psychedelic experience does contribute to me only scratching the very surface of transcending different mental models.

Not to be a pain in the ass but you don't need psychedelic experience to transcend ego, mental models/constructs, even god realization, and most of the things mentioned. You can get very far through sheer will/deep questioning and being with "discomforts". ?

Anyway I think you're doing great : ).

Edited April 13, 2022 by puporing

[soos_mite_ah]

@puporing I'm with you on that which is why I'm trying to do as much as I can on my own and using psychedelics as a last resort. I can attest to that claim with my personal experiences with self development work. 

TBH, I have a nice dose of skepticism when it comes to psychedelics. Mainly because I don't think it's wise to start taking any substances, specifically drugs, from the instruction of the internet or some talking head on YouTube. Also, under the wrong circumstances, psychedelics can really fuck you up which is why I personally don't think it's wise to get into it until you're in your mid to late 20s at the earliest (and obviously take every precaustion you can take and mentally prepare in advance). I mean, there is pleanty of work and development that is to be done before those years and you can make pretty good substantial progress. Plus I think getting into it too early can cause people to use it as a quick fix instead of building up your skills in things like reflection, self awareness, being practical, etc. There are plenty of people who still have their work cut out for them despite having an awakening or two. 

[Carl-Richard]

9 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Careful with Carl, he's got some controversial views on Turquoise which I, and Leo, disagree with.

I don't know if you were here when it happened, but Leo has publicly addressed Beck's criticism on the forum, removed his video (or it got taken down) and changed his stance somewhat. I also don't see why you feel the need to disagree with the developers of the model. Ken Wilber is also in line with Beck on this issue (see his video on "Waking up ≠ Growing up"). The fact is that Turquoise is not inherently mystical, as mysticism has existed for many thousands of years, and Turquoise necessitates Yellow, and Yellow didn't exist before 50-70 years ago. Turquoise is the evolution of Yellow to a more collectively oriented focus. Again, that said, I think discovering and adopting mysticism becomes more likely once you approach Tier 2.

[thisintegrated]

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I don't know if you were here when it happened, but Leo has publicly addressed Beck's criticism on the forum, removed his video (or it got taken down) and changed his stance somewhat.

Show me

 

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Turquoise is the evolution of Yellow to a more collectively oriented focus. Again, that said, I think discovering and adopting mysticism becomes more likely once you approach Tier 2.

At what stage then do we transcend the intellect then?  It's unhealthy to live from the intellect, and Yellow is prone to this.  People like Sadhguru have clearly outgrown their intellect and don't try to impress people with the number of books they've read or anything like that.  Again, Turquoise isn't "Yellow, but like 10x more books read".

[Thought Art]

Not sure if spiral dynamics is the right model for your mindfulness or meditation practice…

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, thisintegrated said:

Show me

I'll have to dig for it. Give me a second.

 

On 8.3.2021 at 6:55 AM, Leo Gura said:

A lot of examples posted here are not proper Turquoise.

Please read the book section on Turquoise carefully before posting your examples.

Turquoise is not the same as anyone talking about spirituality or enlightenment.

 

On 25.4.2021 at 1:50 PM, Leo Gura said:

To anyone reading this and learning about Turquoise, be warned that most of the examples in this thread are not Turquoise.

Go read the SD book Turquoise section.

Enlightened people are not automatically Turquoise. It is a dangerous mistake to assume so. Awakening and cognitive development are not the same thing.

Examples of Turquoise are difficult to cite because A) they are quite rare, and B) the people citing them are themselves not Turquoise so they don't understand what they are citing.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, thisintegrated said:

At what stage then do we transcend the intellect then?  It's unhealthy to live from the intellect, and Yellow is prone to this.  People like Sadhguru have clearly outgrown their intellect and don't try to impress people with the number of books they've read or anything like that.  Again, Turquoise isn't "Yellow, but like 10x more books read".

Look, it's fine to read about general developmental theory or consult your own experiences and synthesize your own understanding. However, I would be careful lumping all of that under the label of "SD", certainly when it goes against the core assumptions of said theory, and doubly so when the developers themselves have explicitly rejected it.

We're talking about a specific scientific theory that is based on decades of rigorous empirical investigation and is represented by a specific set of people (it's a trademarked concept). That is what SD is. If you have some starkly different opinion about human development, then that is not SD. You can call it something else.

It's easy to poo-poo the intellect when you've had a couple of mystical experiences and start to feel intrinsic joy etc., and you may think that it's the solution to all the world's problems. Maybe it is, but how do you share it with the world without say letting it devolve into a cult or a religion (*cough* the last 5000 years *cough*), or without it being corrupted by rivalrous game dynamics or other systemic issues? That is an intellectual problem, which Yellow thinks it can solve, and which Turquoise is starting to solve. A person like Sadhguru has not abandoned his intellect. He has simply put it in (proper) context with the mystical dimension of life.

Mysticism certainly has a real place in the future of this world and will play a part in "higher stages of development", but the way it's being romanticized in places like spiritual communities (and projected onto whatever scientific theory) is not helpful. Mysticism has existed along slavery and all the other atrocities of pre-modern history. One of SD(i)'s strengths is in explaining how this is no longer the case, and it has to do with a movement from lower to higher complexity across all domains.