I want to get the COVID-19 vaccine but I‘m hesitant & confused (looking for clarity)

[Spiral Wizard]

Hey,

I am writing this post in the hope of receiving guidance to help resolve my mental conflict about the coronavirus vaccine. I just want to make an educated decision to finally put my mind at ease. 

• I am open to and genuinely interested in your perspective.
• I am looking for an intellectually honest and nuanced discussion.
• I don’t want to be motivated by fear or trapped in ideologies. 

Let’s try to leave the political / economic stuff out and focus on…

• the science / health side of things (vaccine risks vs covid risks)
• epistemology & pig picture thinking
• being motivated by love (pure intentions)

…because I don’t want to get lost even further in endless conspiracy theories. 

I don’t like to go down all kinds of rabbit holes because it:

• creates confusion
• wastes time & energy
• is distracting & addictive  

At the end of the day it comes down to who do I trust because I honestly DO NOT KNOW, which leads us to the main issue: 

 

Authority & trustworthiness

There are two main anchors I found to be reliable:

1. Embodiment 
2. Epistemology / understanding / wisdom / nuanced thinking / consciousness 

If one of the two is lacking, the person automatically looses authority and trustworthiness.

I’m conscious of my bias: I’ve been disappointed by mainstream medicine because it couldn’t help me with my severe autoimmune condition / health issue. Alternative / holistic medicine was my ‘savior’. 

Anyway, it’s basically a fact that mainstream medicine doesn’t know shit about holistic health and the cause of chronic disease. This makes long term side effect concerns legit. I doubt their assessment of the risks (virus vs vaccine).

Many of my role models (Paul Chek, Dr. Joe Dispenza, Wim Hof, Aubrey Marcus, Aaron Abke, etc.) seem to be against the narrative that’s being pushed in the mainstream. The only conscious people I know that support the covid mainstream are Leo Gura and Sam Harris. It’s hard to assess a persons epistemology and and consciousness via YouTube but Paul Chek definitely embodies holistic health and is wise as fuck (he is 60 years old and more vital than most in their 20s). Leo on the other hand is probably the GOAT of epistemology (this intellectual honesty makes him trustworthy) whereas his embodiment of holistic health kinda sucks (genuinely no offense). In general, a big critique of Leo is that he doesn’t embody a lot of his teachings, which undermines his authority.

@Leo Gura I‘d be extremely grateful if you could help me get my head straight again. Please explain your take on this in detail, so far I’ve mainly seen incomplete or dismissive arguments. Have you considered recording a comprehensive blog video about your take on the pandemic? I‘m sure many open-minded followers that are still in the fence would deeply appreciate that.

For example, how do you reconcile the Social Matrix with following the mainstream? Especially when it comes to health. 

Now, I am conscious of the fact that none of my role models are infallible and everyone can be deceived, especially by conspiracy theories.

So who the fuck shall I TRUST?! I DON’T KNOW haha and we are back to square one. That’s why I’m left to my intuition & logic, right? 

Do you know of any people who embody holistic health that support the mainstream? 
 

Two opposing forces: Intuition & logic

The vaccine is a straight forward solution, it would be a relive. 

My intuition (might be paranoia in disguise as well), spiritual understanding and alternative health knowledge tell me that I should wait at least until next year to make a decision.

Partly due to new covid variants, if a new (more effective or safer) vaccine gets released, I’d prefer to wait for that. 

Additionally, I don’t really fear the virus and trust my immune system because I’ve done a lot to heal it.

On top of that, I started questioning germ theory entirely (opposite would be terrain theory). The truth is probably somewhere in-between. 

I’m sure the vaccine is right for most people because we live in a sick society but does it make sense for young people who embody holistic health?

If I got a severe case of covid it would feel like a challenge and I probably would not regret the worst case scenario because I trusted myself, whereas I would most likely feel like a victim and regret the mRNA vaccine if I got severe side effects. 

My logic tells me that it is absurd to doubt the numbers/statistics (on covid risks vs vaccine risks) because billions of people have been vaccinated and I’m sure it would be public if we had an epidemic of vaccine side effects. Even if covid isn’t that much more dangerous than the flu and big pharma is just out for the money I don’t really think that the vaccine manufacturers would be so reckless... But then again, even if they have good intentions mainstream medicine doesn’t understand holistic health and therefore can’t predict long term side effects. But then again, again, this sounds like paranoia and overthinking lol

I am skeptical about myself. I don’t want to be naive. Where is the line between neurotic overthinking and deeply contemplating an issue? 

I want to be free of doubts about the vaccine and be confident in my decision before I get it because otherwise I might experience the negative placebo effect every time I come by a convincing piece of information that claims coronavirus vaccines have long term side effects (this could be both from conspiracy theories or legit discoveries by official sources a few years down the line).

 

Can you recommend any source that rigorously debunk plausible conspiracy theories about covid? 

Besides that, I think that there are effective treatments like hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin or other supplements. What covid treatments can you recommend?  

Last but not least, can you recommend any easy to understand sources that clearly show the deaths, hospitalizations, and especially long covid cases by age? I‘ve found these two reputable sources so far, but they didn’t really help with clarity because they aren’t easy to navigate: 

• https://www.ema.europa.eu/en
• https://www.thelancet.com/

I want to get the vaccine so I never have to think about all of this craziness ever again and can focus on my life purpose.

One of the biggest things holding me back is that I am not willing to get a new (booster) vaccine every year and I assume that this will be the case. 

Am I brainwashed? I feel lost in (mid-/dis-)information. How to make sense of all this? I’m trying to figure this out but both sides seem plausible. 

For the longest time I believed the mainstream when it comes to covid. Most people I know (including my parents) are vaccinated. But then, I could literally watch my mind getting sucked into conspiracy theories like Plandemic. I‘ve worked on disentangling myself from those and now I‘m basically not attached to any one side. I‘ve switched perspectives back and forth many times, just like Leo describes in this video:

Now, there are just holistic health principles and government corruption issues that are holding me back. Covid really putts my epistemology to the test...

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Spiral Wizard

[Leo Gura]

If you need a detailed explanation from me on why you should already be vaccinated, then I don't even know why you follow my work since you have no hope of understanding the things I teach.

Smarten up. This is not kindergarten.

[Thought Art]

I got mine and I am fine. So have millions of people.

I can understand people feeling fear simply by osmosis and conflicting information channels.

But, I think just get it and stay safe and keep others safe.

Getting my second shot here soon.

[Blackhawk]

What a waste of time and energy.

Just take the vaccine. If you get severe chronic side effects I can pay you 1200 USD, if you can prove that the vaccine caused you severe chronic side effects.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Blackhawk

[undeather]

I am a medical doctor working in a university hospital.
I use complex disease approaches and alternative, holistic health models as an integrative strategy for my private patients. 
I am DEEPLY skeptical about the pharma-industry (In fact, most of my collegues are).
This is my background

As someone who was pretty skeptical at the beginning, let me tell you that most arguments against the covid vaccines are just bullshit - plain and simpel. There will always be a certain amount of uncertainty regarding anything related to a medical intervention. There is a tiny possibility that in 5 yeas, this vaccine might cause a mass pandemic of autoimmune-disease due to a mechanism we had no idea existed. There is a far greater possibility that it wont cause any greater negative consequences at all. 

As a frontline medical worker let me tell you my experience. The amount of severe covid cases I have encountered in the last months were almost exclusively from non vaccinated patients. The same goes for long covid cases. More than 60% of my countries population is fully vaccinated - we have NOT encountered massive amounts of people with adverse effects in our emergency rooms. I remember back in March when the schools teachers got their Astrazeneca vaccine, we had a lot of young teachers complaining about headaches. This is not the case with the RNA vaccine. 

Even if you are young and healthy - its propably better to get the vaccine. I have seen triathletes in their 20's suffering from severe lung damage after a mediocre covid infection. A individual risk assessment is almost impossible due to the incredibly complex nature of the disease. Everyone who tells you otherwise is a liar or has no clue what they are talking about.

I remember when I first read about Ivermectine, I got pretty hyped. 
That night, I went through all the literature and "meta analysis" that were available back then. This dampened my expectations. Mostly poor quality studies and very questionable analyses by institutions with a clear conflict of interest. At this moment, there are about 20 ivermectine trials going on - the newest data we have shows no or just a small positive impact. We will see, but my hope is fading...

I hope this helps a bit

Edited August 30, 2021 by undeather

[Ghost]

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you need a detailed explanation from me on why you should already be vaccinated, then I don't even know why you follow my work since you have no hope of understanding the things I teach.

Smarten up. This is not kindergarten.

Exactly. That's what I don't like about this forum.

I wonder whether or not people even watch your videos, because i feel like even if they do, they don't really understand them.

The level of wisdom you teach doesn't reflect this forum's level of consciousness or rather I should say: common sense

I don't want talk from my spiritual ego because maybe I was just lucky stumbling upon your content when I was 15 - 7 years ago - and literally growing up with it.

This whole actualized.org is common sense and simple logic with some twists. Extremely valuable. Learning about your own mind and its deceptions is perhaps the most important thing to do.

[Ismael]

7 hours ago, Spiral Wizard said:

to finally put my mind at ease.

Since getting mine the worrying has seized completely for me and I usually tend to sneeze a lot as well as have a runny nose due to allergies... 

And as stated above already:

22 minutes ago, undeather said:

Even if you are young and healthy - its propably better to get the vaccine. I have seen triathletes in their 20's suffering from severe lung damage after a mediocre covid infection. A individual risk assessment is almost impossible due to the incredibly complex nature of the disease.

Thanks for sharing your perspective as a frontline medical worker, @undeather!  

[Johnny Galt]

43 minutes ago, undeather said:

I remember when I first read about Ivermectine, I got pretty hyped. 
That night, I went through all the literature and "meta analysis" that were available back then. This dampened my expectations. Mostly poor quality studies and very questionable analyses by institutions with a clear conflict of interest. At this moment, there are about 20 ivermectine trials going on - the newest data we have shows no or just a small positive impact. We will see, but my hope is fading...

@undeather Hey Doc, I'd love your perspective on how some in your profession, they are using a combination of drugs and vitamins in their treatments. One example is: https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/i-mask-plus-protocol/

I'm finding it odd that many studies just look at ivermectin when in many cases doctors are using much more than ivermectin, and so why would this not be considered in the equation, in these studies?  What am I missing here? Any response would be greatly appreciated. 

Dr. Joseph Varon (Cheif Medical Officer) is another example of one who is working with many drugs rather then just ivermectin stand alone. 

Additionally, I'm curious on your thoughts of the quality of studies on this site: https://c19early.com

Edited August 30, 2021 by Johnny Galt

[SgtPepper]

here you go bro:
 

 

I got both moderna shots, and I am fine. The only side effect is I got small rashes on like one part of my body weeks after the shot, both times. However, it went away and I haven't experienced it. I got the shots once it was readily available cause I am missing a spleen, so I am technically immune-comprised. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by SgtPepper

[Johnny Galt]

I'm also curious about your thoughts on the FDA's approval of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, which will now be marketed as Comirnaty.

In particular, with the below information in mind, if there is "limited data about the use of COVID-19 vaccines for people who are pregnant", how do we know, scientifically speaking, if this is safe for those who are pregnant? is this not still in the experimental phase? 

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine

"8 USE IN SPECIFIC POPULATIONS 8.1 Pregnancy

There is a pregnancy exposure registry that monitors pregnancy outcomes in women exposed to COMIRNATY during pregnancy. Women who are vaccinated with COMIRNATY during pregnancy are encouraged to enroll in the registry by visiting https://mothertobaby.org/ongoing-study/covid19-vaccines/." Source: https://www.fda.gov/media/151707/download

" yet there is limited data about the use of COVID-19 vaccines for people who are pregnant. Our study will provide critical information for future moms-to-be and the medical community." Source: https://mothertobaby.org/ongoing-study/covid19-vaccines/

Edited August 31, 2021 by Johnny Galt

[Johnny Galt]

@undeather The above post was meant for you. I forgot to link your name to it. 

[undeather]

15 hours ago, Johnny Galt said:

@undeather Hey Doc, I'd love your perspective on how some in your profession, they are using a combination of drugs and vitamins in their treatments. One example is: https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/i-mask-plus-protocol/

I'm finding it odd that many studies just look at ivermectin when in many cases doctors are using much more than ivermectin, and so why would this not be considered in the equation, in these studies?  What am I missing here? Any response would be greatly appreciated. 

Dr. Joseph Varon (Cheif Medical Officer) is another example of one who is working with many drugs rather then just ivermectin stand alone. 

Additionally, I'm curious on your thoughts of the quality of studies on this site: https://c19early.com

I have been following Pierre Kory and the FLCCC since the early Covid days. They pioneered treatment regimes and safed thousands of lifes, which makes their work deeply respectable. Yet lately, they seem to promote a narrative warfare over the Ivermectine drug, which sometimes even ends in members getting harassed on Twitter due to changing their positions on ivermectin after better research shows no effect.

https://imgur.com/a/EM00u0g

That out of the way, lets look at their protocol. 
Personally, I am a big fan of combinating drugs and vitamins in an intelligent, integrative way. Its not easy to do with certain additives and its definitely NOT common practice in our modern medical establishment. Why, you think? There are dozens studies and meta analyes that looked at the potential effects of supplementation on clinical outcomes but they usually find no significant differences. From a complex system science approach, those findings are of course debateable and there is a lot of valid criticism out there to make a case FOR certain supplement regimes. I wont go into detail there, because you can literally write books about this one topic. 
 

Quote

I'm finding it odd that many studies just look at ivermectin when in many cases doctors are using much more than ivermectin, and so why would this not be considered in the equation, in these studies?  What am I missing here? Any response would be greatly appreciated. 

Yes! Clinical trials are aiming to single out a certain parameter - in this case, one drug. 
On the one side, it kinda makes sense: We want to know if THIS drug in particular has an measureable effect. We know that we dont have to combine Vitamin C with your penicillin, because the antibiotic itself does a tremendous job killing the bacteria. Its also easier and less prone to bias. The more variables you add to a certain experiment, the more can go wrong and the higher is the chance of incorrect data. There are clinical trials that look at treatment regimes with multiple drugs but its rare and not as accepeted.

Now, are we missing out on stuff? Well, maybe. Here we enter back in the realm of complex systems and potential combinatorics. 
IT could well be that a certain treatment regime, like the one from the FLCCC, is so much better than anything we do to most of our patients at the moment. It could also be worse. The truth is, we dont know. It takes a ton of money to set up clinical trial like that and frankly there is not enough incentive for the usual backers (pharma indus.) to throw their money into that. State funded research is a possibility, but this has its own kind of issues.

A lot of doctors speak from their anecdotal evidence but I am highly skeptical about that. Time and time again, history has shown us that we are not a very good judge when it comes to those matters. Dont get me wrong, clinical judgement is important and we should take it seriously - but should we base the the life of millions on the experiences of a few doctors? No, I dont think so.

Its an indcredibly complex & nuanced topic and I could talk for hours about it - but i hope this helps a bit. 

Quote

Additionally, I'm curious on your thoughts of the quality of studies on this site: https://c19early.com

I dont have the time to go through that, I am sorry. 
I went through https://c19ivermectin.com/ once, which seem to stem from the same source. It was bad, not taking into account the terrible quality of some of those studies (one even got retracted afterwards). 

 

12 hours ago, Johnny Galt said:

I'm also curious about your thoughts on the FDA's approval of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, which will now be marketed as Comirnaty.

In particular, with the below information in mind, if there is "limited data about the use of COVID-19 vaccines for people who are pregnant", how do we know, scientifically speaking, if this is safe for those who are pregnant? is this not still in the experimental phase? 

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine

"8 USE IN SPECIFIC POPULATIONS 8.1 Pregnancy

There is a pregnancy exposure registry that monitors pregnancy outcomes in women exposed to COMIRNATY during pregnancy. Women who are vaccinated with COMIRNATY during pregnancy are encouraged to enroll in the registry by visiting https://mothertobaby.org/ongoing-study/covid19-vaccines/." Source: https://www.fda.gov/media/151707/download

" yet there is limited data about the use of COVID-19 vaccines for people who are pregnant. Our study will provide critical information for future moms-to-be and the medical community." Source: https://mothertobaby.org/ongoing-study/covid19-vaccines/

Its a difficult time to become pregnant at the moment.

The effect of a COVID-19 infection on pregnancy is not completely known because of the lack of reliable data. Similar infections such as SARS and MERS suggest that pregnant women are at an increased risk of severe infection. No good data is available on the effects on the baby. 

The same goes for the vaccine - we just dont know for sure. It "seems" to be safe. I have talked to collegues who work in gynaecology and they havent seen any smoking gun yet. Its propably okay and wont harm the fetus. 
But see, its again - risk assessment. We dont know the real risk vs reward calculation. Which is worse for the fetus? 

In my estimate, the later in the pregnancy, the better. I would be very hesitant in the first trimenon, but then again I am not an expert on the data. I totally get the concerns and I honestly have to admit that I simply dont know. 

The current FDA approval is not out of thin air. The data we have so far shows no red flags whent it comes to pregnant women getting the vaccine. Is the analysis complex enough? Is the period too short? Well, thats debateable.

Edited August 31, 2021 by undeather

[Johnny Galt]

@undeather Thank you for your time! Your response is very much appreciated!! I'm sure I'll have more questions in time but it's 5:30 in the morning, and so I should probably wake up first before I do anymore thinking

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Johnny Galt

[Spiral Wizard]

19 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

Just take the vaccine. If you get severe chronic side effects I can pay you 1200 USD, if you can prove that the vaccine caused you severe chronic side effects.

Imma quote you on that haha 

19 hours ago, undeather said:

I hope this helps a bit

@undeather very helpful and reassuring, thank you so much!

 

[Goldzilla]

Maybe what the majority are doing is not that safe. Take history per example, the worst atrocities where done, in following the masses. 

[Blackhawk]

18 hours ago, SgtPepper said:

 

That video gave me a bit goosebumps.

The whole thing about using intelligence to send a heads-up message with a messenger, it's almost like a divine intervention.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Blackhawk

[undeather]

15 minutes ago, Goldzilla said:

Maybe what the majority are doing is not that safe. Take history per example, the worst atrocities where done, in following the masses. 

Maybe you shouldnt base your sensemaking on what "the majority" is or isnt doing.... because thats what children do.  

[Enizeo]

@undeather Thank you so much! This is the kind of nuanced input that was really helpful for making up my mind about this whole thing.

It's really a shame that @Leo Gura is taking this dismissive attitude on the matter. I (now) get where he is coming from, but it shows a heavy lack in compassion. 

Vaccine hesitancy is really present in my environment. None of my friends are crazy anti-vaxxers, but as you've explained in your post, it's not completely unjustified to be a bit hesitant. Leo could've made this a lot easier for me, by taking the concerns just a tiny bit more serious. In my case, it really frightened me how he doesn't appear to question the popular narrative whatsoever.

Yes, this problem mainly arose because I had bugs in my epistemology. But they were sneaky, not obvious mistakes that you would have to be stupid to commit. At least for me, that's just where I'm at.

Anyway, getting my first shot next week. Maybe my little perspective and story will help some people here and in my peer group... Maybe next time, we'll be able to have serious and kind discussions with people that are insecure.

[Spiral Wizard]

Just got my first shot!

Super happy about it haha

Last week I actually thought that I had come to my final decision... to not get vaccinated. But yesterday I spontaneously thought, fuck it, let's do it! 

In that very instant so much energy was released because I finally LET GO of this exhausting topic and I got pretty high lol, very similar to the feeling of aroused kundalini.

Anyway, do as much research as you like but then throw it all out of the window and listen to your heart  

Edited September 17, 2021 by Spiral Wizard