Raze

Frank Yang's video response to Leo's video - about stage Turquoise

259 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, Eternity said:

@RMQualtrough Awareness is the I that is consciousness but cannot be localized.  It simply does not exist except in the mind of God.  If you ask a brain surgeon where awareness abides in the brain, they will not be able to answer.   They simply don't know.

Or you can say mind of god exists only in awareness or that both are just sensations, the point I've been making is, without a separate self projecting or there won't be a Source, only a "subject" makes the subject/object split.  


 

 

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15 hours ago, Being Frank Yang said:

This is spot on hahaha amazing summary.  So this really comes down to "exploring altered states of consciousness" vs "enlightenment"  the 2 overlap but they're not exactly the same.  I tend to lean towards enlightenment work and Leo consciousness work. So it's actually a sweet combo for people who are interested in both.  And although we disagree on some parts of the Path I do have a lot of respect for Leo's fearless approach to exploring altered states of consciousness.
I'm willing to try psychedelics more yes but I haven't felt a calling for it yet.

But like I said in there, ego is altered states. Mystical experiences either on psychedelics and meditation is altered states. Natural state is an un-altered states of consciousness.  But that does not mean you can't explore altered states from the Full Natty State. But the thing I wanted to point out is the difference between the 2, since most people confuse enlightenment with exotic states of consciousness.
 

I myself made this mistake before gaining access to the Natural State, as it is impossible to know what ________ is like from both the altered state of self and Self: individual mind and Universal Mind. Now the Natural State is the ______ that "manifest both", a place where one sees clearly and directly that at the "microscopic level" of sensations both are just different reconfiguration of energy and sensations that are dependently arising.

Ps. I also agree with you about being attached to getting to psychedelic states sober but since then I've let go of this. I see both meditation and psychedelics as both just being tools for dissolution and their effects the side effects and by products.  This does NOT mean you can't explore those content. Even post Awakening one can still go back to previous stages and explore their nuances.

But interestingly stated in the video after Realization of No-Self and cleaning out most of my conditions, it is impossible to even call up Jhanas anymore or access Kundalini energies because even jhanas and "chakras" are the by products of the stratums of mind getting dis-embedded and released.

But if you want to get technical the moment to moment experience of the Natural State is very close to the 6th jhana of Infinite Consciousness (Buddha-Mind/Super Witness/One Mind) and the 9th jhana of cessation.  The difference being pre-Realization there was still a 'center' perceiving this field of Infinity, post Awakening the center is dissolved, hence you vanish and die into the present moment to "manifest" all of 'Reality'

'Wisdom is knowing I am nothing,Love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.' - Nisargadatta Maharaj sums up the dark light of the Absolute perfectly. 
 

This also mirrors my conclusion that the Natural State/"Buddhahood" is the transcendence and merging of "arhat" and "bodhisattva", where the former is the emptiness/Nothingness/Death/Non-Being phase and the latter is Universal Compassion/Love/Being.  

But of course I'm not talking about the historical Buddha...“There is Buddha for those who do not know what he is really. There is no Buddha for those who know what he is really.” That is, Buddha exists for those who still need an ideal image to aspire to in order to get enlightened, but he doesn’t exist for those who no longer need such a mental prop. The exactly same thing can be applied to God.  

 

 

 

 

Do you agree with Leo that consciousness in not dependent from the brain? If yes, how does it feel to be awareness without being the receptor? (like for example disincarnated between lifes.) Its like a unified field of consciousness?

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@Being Frank Yang Thank you for sharing all of this to the forum. It's really nice hearing from someone who takes meditation seriously. It seems to be the biggest blind spot on Actualized.org. The dismissal of manual practice in favor of psychedelic exploration for awakening. Yet there is so so so much territory to cover using meditation. People don't realize just how profound it all becomes once one enters into the momentary awareness of the simultaneous arising and passing of sensate experience, moment by moment. When one can literally feel the expansion and contraction of reality, one's natural state begins become psychedelic, and actually even beyond psychedelic because the underlying nature of all witnessed experience begins to be penetrated. 

Hope you stick around these parts of the internet brah. 
 

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19 minutes ago, Consilience said:

It seems to be the biggest blind spot on Actualized.org. The dismissal of manual practice in favor of psychedelic exploration for awakening

Myself and a lot of the mods here encourage meditation and self inquiry - so not sure you can say that as a general statement...I have never done psychedelics in my life.  Now granted, I can make a Buddha dance in a few  minutes too.  So I don't know if that's the case for everyone here.  If psychedelics can get them there faster then all the better.   But yeah a lot of us stress meditation and self inquiry here :)

 


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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21 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Myself and a lot of the mods here encourage meditation and self inquiry - so not sure you can say that as a general statement...I have never done psychedelics in my life.  Now granted, I can make a Buddha dance in a few  minutes too.  So I don't know if that's the case for everyone here.  If psychedelics can get them there faster then all the better.   But yeah a lot of us stress meditation and self inquiry here :)

 

This is true. I guess I'm granting more authority to Leo when it comes to the overall "collective ego" of Actualized.org. From what I've heard in his videos and read online, he seems a bit too dismissive of manual practices like meditation or self inquiry. I've also seen a lot of members quickly recommend psychedelics and dismiss manual practice. Perhaps I'm incorrect though. 

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2 hours ago, Consilience said:

@Being Frank Yang Thank you for sharing all of this to the forum. It's really nice hearing from someone who takes meditation seriously. It seems to be the biggest blind spot on Actualized.org. The dismissal of manual practice in favor of psychedelic exploration for awakening. Yet there is so so so much territory to cover using meditation. People don't realize just how profound it all becomes once one enters into the momentary awareness of the simultaneous arising and passing of sensate experience, moment by moment. When one can literally feel the expansion and contraction of reality, one's natural state begins become psychedelic, and actually even beyond psychedelic because the underlying nature of all witnessed experience begins to be penetrated. 

Hope you stick around these parts of the internet brah. 
 

Second this :D hopefully i can get more people on here to balance psychedelics with meditation and see the nuance of it


 

 

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11 hours ago, Flyboy said:

It seems to me that the biggest difference between Leo's teachings and Frank's is the "Knot of Perception."  By taking meditation to its ultimate conclusion, the illusion of reality being "dead" is finally broken (this is an actual change in mental processing, where the mind no longer makes models of reality which are updated, but instead perceives it directly, 1 to 1 with sensate information).  When reality is seen as it IS, there is NO ROOM left for any "self", and the dependently originating and infinitely intelligent / interconnected nature of every particle of existence is perceived in real-time to be alive, aware of itself, and part of the infinite loop of existence. 

This infinite loop starts with you, and in the NOW continuously expands to infinite mind (through a God-mind version of the conceptual chain (ala Derrida), where every concept leads to other concepts until all of infinity is invoked, which then collapses back into infinite causality which manifests you (and every other particle) in every instant.  All of this happens Everywhere, in the Now, with Everything.  It is the great cosmic snake, with no center, no self, springing from Nothing but encompassing Everything:

torus.gif

Leo's teachings focus on the God-mind part - the part of this loop where all of infinity is known and comprehended.  Frank focuses on the whole loop.  You guys are talking about the same reality though.  When Frank says you are projecting a separate self onto reality, it's like when Leo talks about projecting math onto reality -- the concepts within "understanding" are like math - very close, but not quite IT.  And of course, they never can be.  Reality can only ever BE Reality.

@Being Frank Yang I would love to know if you agree with this.

I will also ad d another difference, how minor/major it is depend on the individual. Leo places "God Realization" at the end of the path, I place No Self at the end and anything God related as simply an experience/by product of an authentic Realization of No Self (which again despite what some people believe this is actually extremely rare. Hence I make the distinction between temporarily transcending the self via meditation and psychedelics vs a permanent Realization of dropping away of self) and to me most people who think they're GOd Realized are simply having an experience from the separated state. Here is my very simple stages of Awakening that might help put things into perspective.

1.  I Am/Identification of ego (everything below Turquoise) Contracted sense of self that stuck inside the head and behind the eyes.

2. I Am Awareness/Consciousness, which is the identification to the Witnessing of 1 (Stream Entry)

3. I Am God/Infinity/Universal Mind And Love. Identification of God. I Am Everything.

4. I Am Nothingness/Emptiness. Total loss of identity. An extremely nebulous sense of self

5. Enlightenment/ True No Self.

5, An authentic Enlightenment is the UN-ALTERED STATE of Consciousness aka Natural State, which dis-identifies, includes but transcends all the previous stages.   This state is what Osho calls "Beyond Enlightenment", completely ordinary, yet some many sense even deeper than the Universal Mind stage. 

One thing i agree with Leo is that there aren't a lot of teachers out there who's Realized the "Loop", as in they'll talk about emptiness and no self but they are missing the "Form"/"Infinity" aspect of it.  After my Awakening it was a surprise to me how very few people ever talk about Strange Loops, or what I call the direct moment to moment experience of Universe Fucking/Eating Itself through and through, Cosmic Snake Biting It's Own Tail, but few seem to "close the circuit" 


 

 

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3 hours ago, Rajneeshpuram said:

Do you agree with Leo that consciousness in not dependent from the brain? If yes, how does it feel to be awareness without being the receptor? (like for example disincarnated between lifes.) Its like a unified field of consciousness?

Yes in my direct experience COnsciousness is an Infinite unified field and all Forms within it are simply penetrating itself without a location, brain or receiver. Now I don't make statements like how it's originated because I simply don't care hahaha


 

 

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The classical enneagram type 5 trap: replacing direct exp with concepts

Go out and live boys. Stop wasting time here.


Can you bite your own teeth?  --  “What a caterpillar calls the end of the world we call a butterfly.

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2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Myself and a lot of the mods here encourage meditation and self inquiry - so not sure you can say that as a general statement...I have never done psychedelics in my life.  Now granted, I can make a Buddha dance in a few  minutes too.  So I don't know if that's the case for everyone here.  If psychedelics can get them there faster then all the better.   But yeah a lot of us stress meditation and self inquiry here :)

 

The emphasize towards psychedelics is just a by product of a bigger blind spot i see in this forum, which is confusing an experience of Absolute Infinity/"God" with a permanent Realization of it, which is not an experience, and all God experiences are simply the by product of Realization. If people confuse the 2 it's very easy to dismiss meditation since psychedelics give you that glimpse way faster. But from  the ultimate perspective both meditation and psychedelics are just means to an end.  Neither an experience on psychedelics nor meditation is Realization, which transcends both, and even the entire paradigm of spirituality itself.


 

 

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35 minutes ago, Being Frank Yang said:

The emphasize towards psychedelics is just a by product of a bigger blind spot i see in this forum, which is confusing an experience of Absolute Infinity/"God" with a permanent Realization of it, which is not an experience, and all God experiences are simply the by product of Realization. If people confuse the 2 it's very easy to dismiss meditation since psychedelics give you that glimpse way faster. But from  the ultimate perspective both meditation and psychedelics are just means to an end.  Neither an experience on psychedelics nor meditation is Realization, which transcends both, and even the entire paradigm of spirituality itself.

 Yeah I can't speak a lot on psychedelics obviously but I do think one does need a certain level of conceptual framework to help ground them - such as the metaphysical videos Leo puts out - I haven't seen any of yours but it is great to meet  you -- and will want to be at a certain baseline level of consciousness/maturity as they begin doing the spiritual practices  - be they psychedelics or meditation.   Otherwise they may not have these realizations at all or be able to properly integrate thereafter.  But by the same token too much concept can be counterproductive so just the right mix is needed of course.  

Keep in mind a lot of what is said here when Absolute Infinity or God is mentioned is simply pointers to the Absolute.  But often times I see a lot of people confuse the map with the territory or are bothered by the use of these pointers as if we are trying to capture the Absolute with words.    So its a delicate balance.

 


 

Wisdom.  Truth.  Love.

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1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

 Yeah I can't speak a lot on psychedelics obviously but I do think one does need a certain level of conceptual framework to help ground them - such as the metaphysical videos Leo puts out - I haven't seen any if yours but it is great to meet  you -- and will want to be a certain baseline level of consciousness/maturity as they begin doing the spiritual practices  - be they psychedelics or meditation.   Otherwise they may not fully grasp the experience or be able to properly integrate thereafter.

 

Leo's metaphysical videos are some of the best theoretical frameworks I've ever seen on the internet and it is just as important as anything else.  You need a combination of everything - conceptual framework, permanent perceptual shifts/insights from meditation and self inquiry, and peak experiences from psychedelics, and lots of grounding/integration work. So it's not like there's a single blind spot on here or anywhere else, there's blind spots in everyone's development. Actualized.org actually covers a whole range of methods, practices, concepts so it's all up to the individual to pick up the pieces of the puzzle. But I do agree there isn't a lot of experienced meditators on here who's taken the Insight/Wisdom axis of development to the end point.


 

 

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4 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

 Yeah I can't speak a lot on psychedelics obviously but I do think one does need a certain level of conceptual framework to help ground them - such as the metaphysical videos Leo puts out - I haven't seen any if yours but it is great to meet  you -- and will want to be at a certain baseline level of consciousness/maturity as they begin doing the spiritual practices  - be they psychedelics or meditation.   Otherwise they may have these realizations or be able to properly integrate thereafter.

 

Ground them in what? Ground them why?

 

This is an attempt of survival. There is nothing to ground, there is nothing to understand. There is no such thing as maturity, there is no such thing as integration. That's all what you made up to justify survival.

 

Everything is nonsense, that's the entire point. To make sense out of it means to unravel it. To realize the ground means to see it was never there and fall right through it.

 

 

You can create any ground. Leo is creating his own personal ground. You can create your personal ground. The thing is that because the ground is made of nothing at all, you can make anything of it you please! Because it's nothing! Nothing doesn't need anything to exist, it needs no cause, it needs no justification, it needs no Truth of itself. :D

 

To remember the Circle means to forget it. There is no reason to it, it simply is.

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11 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

If a person is willing to call the everything "God" or "Brahman, then why not "I"? I'd say "I" is the best term because it is the only one which does not imply duality to an outside reader.

YOu can call Reality whatever you want.  Nature itself wouldn't label itself as any of it. And it is important to have a direct Realization of Reality without any lenses of perception. And before abiding in the full natty state prior to experience and perception it is very easy to have an experience and immediately slap some labels on it and get carried away with the content and place emphasize on one lens of perception over another, whether it's "all is god's imagination" or "everything is empty and holographic", "Reality is Strange Looping Itself", "There is nobody here" etc. 


 

 

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Ground them in what? Ground them why?

 

This is an attempt of survival. There is nothing to ground, there is nothing to understand. There is no such thing as maturity, there is no such thing as integration. That's all what you made up to justify survival.

 

Everything is nonsense, that's the entire point. To make sense out of it means to unravel it. To realize the ground means to see it was never there and fall right through it.

 

 

You can create any ground. Leo is creating his own personal ground. You can create your personal ground. The thing is that because the ground is made of nothing at all, you can make anything of it you please! Because it's nothing! Nothing doesn't need anything to exist, it needs no cause, it needs no justification, it needs no Truth of itself. :D

 

To remember the Circle means to forget it. There is no reason to it, it simply is.

You can say this after you seen through the ground sure but for most people who are still on the path they have one foot in infinity/emptiness and another foot still in solid. It's important to ground yourself before you completely lose the ground.  Like I said you have to be nothing before you can be everything without any frictions. But yeah i agree, ultimately any ground is as good as any other, whether that's God, No Self, Love, Cosmic BBC Imagination whatever.  It's all the same ;)

Edited by Being Frank Yang

 

 

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Just now, Being Frank Yang said:

You can say this after you seen through the ground sure but for most people who are still on the path they have one foot in infinity/emptiness and another foot still in solid. It's important to ground yourself before you completely lose the ground.  Like I said you have to be nothing before you can be everything without any frictions.

There is no path, there is no ground to see There is nothing to achieve. It's not important at all. You don't have to be anything before you can be everything without friction.

You made all of this up and you are pretending it is real. That's the point. :D

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The difference between Leo and Frank is one likes limits and the other doesn't.

Leo wants this god realization to be right sooo bad .. he will say or articulate anything to justify it. 

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4 minutes ago, Being Frank Yang said:

Leo's metaphysical videos are some of the best theoretical frameworks I've ever seen on the internet and it is just as important as anything else.  You need a combination of everything - conceptual framework, permanent perceptual shifts/insights from meditation and self inquiry, and peak experiences from psychedelics, and lots of grounding/integration work. So it's not like there's a single blind spot on here or anywhere else, there's blind spots in everyone's development. Actualized.org actually covers a whole range of methods, practices, concepts so it's all up to the individual to pick up the pieces of the puzzle. But I do agree there isn't a lot of experienced meditators on here who's taken the Insight/Wisdom axis of development to the end point.

Enlightenment is cool and everything but now it’s time for you to help Leo improve his meatsuit. 

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Just now, Fadl said:

The difference between Leo and Frank is one likes limits and the other doesn't.

Leo wants this god realization to be right sooo bad .. he will say or articulate anything to justify it. 

Their quest for rightness and truth is as futile as the philosophers quest for moral reality. It's all just overthinking. Protect your thoughts at all costs, because without them, what will you have left?

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Posted (edited)

Here is the path:

You sit down, you get enlightened. You get enlightened again. You get so enlightened that you return to being normal.

You get so enlightened that you realize that everyone around you has always been enlightened and has already achieved the full path. You realize there is nobody who is unaware of anything. They are all conscious of the ultimate nature of existence, they are all aware of that which you have spent years to become aware of. They have deconstructed it all. Infact, they have deconstructed it all so much, that the only last thing you have to achieve their final level of enlightenment, is to forget completely about enlightenment, truth and all the nonsense you have gathered.

 

And then you suffer, you suffer as you always have. That is your sacrifice and your ultimate Truth. You cry about how you want to stop suffering, and seek, utterly aware, but blind to the truth. Your blindness is your ultimate awareness. And one day, you decide you want to seek truth and love. And you sit down so you get enlightened.

Edited by Scholar

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