Tobia

Biden: "Israel has a right to defend itself"

84 posts in this topic

21 minutes ago, Hulia said:

over 13.000 people killed, 1 million fled from their houses

Those who fled just left their houses. Into some of them the strangers have moved. The others just idle away. You cannot sell a house on the occupied territory where the shooting is  still going on

13k and 1M concern both sides, it's not only the anti-russian people but also pro-russian people. Crimea had a special administrative status as it was handed to Ukrainian SSR by USSR. Since legitimately elected president Viktor Yanukovych was removed with a coup I'd say that constituents had a claim to decide their faith. Crimea chose to join Russia and the latter supported its choice.

My question was more whether you were presently forced to live in a strip unable to become autonomous, bullied without means of resistance. I'm asking because I saw how heinously you speak of Putin so I sense some hypocrisy when you say that Ukrainian separatists would "never fire random rockets on the Russian side, if they did Russia would have all the rights to invade us". Russia had legitimate reasons to do what it did with Crimea and you don't seem too happy with it but you seem fine with Palestinian getting handled like livestock.

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@Raptorsin7

Some additional context may be helpful as to why the Arab nations tried to wipe Israel of the map, as you put it.

When Israel was established, it created large numbers of displaced refugees who were pushed out of where they had been living, causing instability as they began streaming into neighboring countries, who either didn't want them or didn't have a place for them.

To illustrate the difficulties this caused, imagine that a foreign power began colonizing the closest neighboring country to where you live and started pushing out the people who were already living there, causing tens of thousands of displaced people to begin streaming into the country you reside, with all of the instability which that entails.

Even if you don't agree with the decisions they made in response to this, the surrounding Arab countries reacted in the way that they did for understandable reasons; not because of imagined unresolvable religious tensions, or because of an inability for Jews and Arabs to coexist.


"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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5 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

There were also Jews living their before the partition so it's not as clear cut that they simply stole the land from the native

They were palestanian Jews, lol. The whole idea of making a jewish state is laughable and unnecessary. I don't know all the historical details about the situation. But more than 700 thousand people were kicked from their land. If they were to make a state in palestaine, they should have asked the people peacefully for a piece of land. But that doesn't work in real life, so to get what they wanted, they used force and claimed the land was theirs in the first place.

I support a peaceful solution where the events of the past are forgotten and where there is a peacful division of land and resources. But this simply won't happen anytime soon.


I am the only thing stopping myself from receiving infinite Love form Myself. I am Infinite Love for god sake.

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4 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

when you say that Ukrainian separatists would "never fire random rockets on the Russian side

no sense do discuss it with you because are not especially good informed about the topic

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1 minute ago, DocWatts said:

@Raptorsin7

Some additional context may be helpful as to why the Arab nations tried to wipe Israel of the map, as you put it.

When Israel was established, it created large numbers of displaced refugees who were pushed out of where they had been living, causing instability as they began streaming into neighboring countries, who either didn't want them or didn't have a place for them.

To illustrate the difficulties this caused, imagine that a foreign power began colonizing the closest neighboring country to where you live and started pushing out the people who were already living there, causing tens of thousands of displaced people to begin streaming into the country you reside, with all of the instability which that entails.

Even if you don't agree with the decisions they made in response to this, the surrounding Arab countries reacted in the way that they did for understandable reasons; not because of imagined unresolvable religious tensions, or because of an inability for Jews and Arabs to coexist.

I don't see how that justifies the invasion. This is a weak pre-text.

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@Hulia  Of course I mean that. I guess the situation in Ukraine is sadder because Ukrainians from my understanding often understand that the issue is the government, not the people. And Ukrainians and Russians can live peacefully together on one land, unlike Israelis and Palestinians in that area.

@Raptorsin7@Eren Eeager  I don't think any country deserves to be wiped out from the map if it includes murder and rape. The thing is, Palestinians have no chance of defeating Israel if they are so rich and also supported by the US. Israel was invaded by other Arab nations too, not just Palestine. But like Israel mainly focuses on Palestinians, it cannot afford to focus on all the different countries at once, they are not a minority in their view, minorities are easy to oppress.

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14 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I don't see how that justifies the invasion. This is a weak pre-text.

The point of my previous post wasn't to necessarily to justify everything that the neighboring Arab countries did in response to Israel's actions, but rather to demonstrate that the military invasions didn't come out of nowhere.

I would further argue that many (perhaps even most) other nations would have responded in a similar way in that scenario.


"The mind is inherently embodied.
Thought is mostly unconscious.
Abstract concepts are largely metaphorical." - George Lakoff

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Posted (edited)

14 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

Of course I mean that. I guess the situation in Ukraine is sadder because Ukrainians from my understanding often understand that the issue is the government, not the people. And Ukrainians and Russians can live peacefully together on one land, unlike Israelis and Palestinians in that area.

Your understanding is wrong. The issue is not the government, but people. Ukrainians and Russians have different preferences about the political systems and society rules. Russians want a tsar or a dictator to hold their empire together, for Ukrainians democracy and freedom are absolutely essential.  We CANNOT live in one state and we even mustn´t, because Ukraine and Russia ARE 2 different states.

Edited by Hulia

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55 minutes ago, Hulia said:

I thought, he has already banned or at least warned us till now. Because what we are doing is it a game A? B? C?

not sure ?

Open for any game with you.Need to check that dating,relationship section for some tips.9_9 

What can I do,just a simple man?!

Survival(individual or group/nation/religion whatever),why people always forget and they ain't no different.

 

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5 minutes ago, Zeroguy said:

Need to check that dating,relationship section for some tips.

Don´t waste your time. I´ll tell you. Discover your divine masculinity. Be brutal, direct, indiscrete, and always leading. And I think, they won´t recommend you to argue about politics in bed. Becasue it might destroy the devine femininity of your ally

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4 minutes ago, Hulia said:

Don´t waste your time. I´ll tell you. Discover your divine masculinity. Be brutal, direct, indiscrete, and always leading. And I think, they won´t recommend you to argue about politics in bed. Becasue it might destroy the devine femininity of your ally

Please don't tell 'em "the secret" they have to catch up lessons from Teal Swan ,PUA dudes etc.

You are spoiling all the fun.

Better to argue about politics then  looking at ceiling .

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@Hulia  Are you assuming I am justifying the Russian side? As a Czech? xD We are making stereotypes here and that's all nice. But like I do not believe that the elections in Russia are fair or that the people are not brainwashed to vote for Putin over and over. It is so apparent that it is corrupted. Many Russians suffer because of Putin's elitism and they do not want him, but his power is superior. I was not justifying Crimea and Donbass, I mean Russians already live in peace with Ukrainians in large number in eastern Ukraine, no? And you are also two different states while doing that.

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1 hour ago, bejapuskas said:

I mean Russians already live in peace with Ukrainians in large number in eastern Ukraine, no?

Yes, of course. The borderline of internal ukrainian conflict is not nationalities or religions but social order. Do I want to be a part of a "great and proud" empire  - now and here or do I want to be a part of a free democratic world - sometime in the future. But the choice is of course an illusion. There are no many ways, we are all, all the humanity, are on the same way, just on differrent stages of it, "great and proud empire" is not an option, it´s a step back.

Like if I were an arab, I would prefer Israel to Palestina. 

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@Eren Eeager

3 hours ago, Eren Eeager said:

The whole idea of making a jewish state is laughable and unnecessary. I don't know all the historical details about the situation.

Easy for you to say. Even if you don't believe in the Jewish religion you still need to remember that the Jews were longing to come back to the country for more than 2000 years. Saying it is laughable is kinda disrespectful.

 

3 hours ago, Eren Eeager said:

If they were to make a state in palestaine, they should have asked the people peacefully for a piece of land. But that doesn't work in real life, so to get what they wanted, they used force and claimed the land was theirs in the first place.

Well, actually Israel did try to propose to divide the country 50/50 (which is not exactly what they wanted, but well), and the Palestinians refused because they wanted the whole country and for Israel to be completely destroyed.

I'm not saying that Israel is necessarily in the good, there is hatred from both sides.

The thing is that we could be in a much better position (for both sides) if Hamas would use the money to help evolve Gaza and other Arab places.

It is almost laughable at how much Israel has been trying to make peace but Hamas just wants to bomb us outa here 

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31 minutes ago, fopylo said:

the Jews were longing to come back to the country for more than 2000 years. Saying it is laughable is kinda disrespectful.

It is just silly. People believe in many silly things ans this is one of them. All evil comes from believing in such silly beliefs. Like Muslims also believe in many silly shit, like how holy Jerusalem is and how holy Al Aqsa mosque is.

32 minutes ago, fopylo said:

Israel did try to propose to divide the country 50/50 (which is not exactly what they wanted, but well), and the Palestinians refused because they wanted the whole country and for Israel to be completely destroyed.

Of course they would refuse. Who accepts taking 50 % of their land?

 

32 minutes ago, fopylo said:

It is almost laughable at how much Israel has been trying to make peace but Hamas just wants to bomb us outa here 

Israel is not taking any real action in real life, for Hammas to accept peace with them. Israel actually, kept taking more and more land and kicking people of their homes. Remind me? Why should one make peace with someone who just kept doing wrong things. Tho, I don't accept what Hammas does, but I understand their position. They are just  people who are angry and for a really good reason. The right wing in Israel is as bad and evil as Hammas. And this is a thing you, Israelis should start noticing. You are going in a very wrong direction. Love and understanding is the way. But it is costy. And it costs a lot.

 


I am the only thing stopping myself from receiving infinite Love form Myself. I am Infinite Love for god sake.

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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Hulia said:

Yes, of course. The borderline of internal ukrainian conflict is not nationalities or religions but social order. Do I want to be a part of a "great and proud" empire  - now and here or do I want to be a part of a free democratic world - sometime in the future. But the choice is of course an illusion. There are no many ways, we are all, all the humanity, are on the same way, just on differrent stages of it, "great and proud empire" is not an option, it´s a step back.

Like if I were an arab, I would prefer Israel to Palestina. 

Ofcourse you do. Better quality of life. 

Skip all nonsense people are about. Nationalism, religion, spirituality etc 

Love my pragmatic lady. 

Talk to me dirty, don't about politics. Anti Putin talk can actually turn me on. I will show you real bear not this self proclaimed who keeps his own people as slaves. 

Passion and love all over the place. 

Edited by Zeroguy

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10 hours ago, Eren Eeager said:

@Raptorsin7 I wish they just the land and it just ended. But no Israel kept pushing. But you must also appreciate how much pain palestanian felt when their land was taken from them. They still feel the pain to this day and I can feel their pain. Being robbed of your land is not easy.

pretty wierd to hear that from israeli point of view, all of the jews here have been left from their land and have been in far more brutal condition than the palestanian but we dont hold to the past, here there is a mentalety to have a normal life like in other developed countries


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Posted (edited)

@joshu Ok I'm no expert on the Middle East  I'll put that on the table first. But if we're talking about the 1920s I guess that was the era of fallout from the first world war. Up till then, most of the region was occupied by the Ottoman empire for hundreds of years. My impression is (please correct me if I'm wrong) that monotheists like Jews and Christians were tolerated but kept as second class citizens. In the 20s they also had the carving up of places like Iraq, Syria, Lebanon by the WW1 victors - with a close eye on oil, and Russian communist influence. You're right there were various diplomatic efforts, my country the UK was heavily involved in Palestine/Israel  until we found it ungovernable and gave up after WW2, handing it over to the UN to sort out. Ofc the holocaust was a factor by then too... 

I'm also thinking that the reason why there's such a big pro-Israeli lobby in the US is because it was a refuge for persecuted Jews around the world for many years. 

Edited by snowyowl
grammar

Relax, it's just my loosely held opinion.  :) 

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36 minutes ago, snowyowl said:

@joshu Ok I'm no expert on the Middle East  I'll put that on the table first. But if we're talking about the 1920s I guess that was the era of fallout from the first world war. Up till then, most of the region was occupied by the Ottoman empire for hundreds of years. My impression is (please correct me if I'm wrong) that monotheists like Jews and Christians were tolerated but kept as second class citizens. In the 20s they also had the carving up of places like Iraq, Syria, Lebanon by the WW1 victors - with a close eye on oil, and Russian communist influence. You're right there were various diplomatic efforts, my country the UK was heavily involved in Palestine/Israel  until we found it ungovernable and gave up after WW2, handing it over to the UN to sort out. Ofc the holocaust was a factor by then too... 

I'm also thinking that the reason why there's such a big pro-Israeli lobby in the US is because it was a refuge for persecuted Jews around the world for many years. 

false, the lobby is because of the evangelical


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@Eren Eeager Yeah this land was ours from the start and we just got kicked out and now came back. They should've anticipated we would come back to the land that belonged to us.

You are completely right that Israel doesn't know how to solve this problem in an appropriate manner. The right wing is not great here and is causing the hatred to continue. But you can't say that their hate is for a good reason. Dude, they want to fricking bomb us out of here instead of investing their precious money into developing their lives.

Anyway, I feel I should stop. I don't want to let my biases take over. I'm from Israel and you are from Jordan so it's easier to take sides.

There needs to be a change in the structure of how we think in solving this problem

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