Akira

is 100% honesty realistic if you intend to make a life in the world?

28 posts in this topic

Is some degree of intentional manipulation, of others, through dishonesty, necessary to make a life in the world? Can one survive, or better thrive, in this world whilst avoiding all intentional dishonesty? or will such a commitment lead to severe limitations to one's  worldly possibilities?

 

Any thoughts much appreciated! 

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When you are intentionally dishonest you assume that telling a lie will give you something better than telling the truth. But how do you know this? You don't know what the future will bring you. Maybe telling the truth will give you something greater.

Telling a lie assumes that YOU know what is better for you, so you intent to trick "the universe" into giving you what you want. But maybe, you are only tricking yourself? Maybe "the universe" knows better what is better for you so you just have to tell it your truth. ;) 

Having said that, if your girlfriend asks you if her butt looks fat in those pants, the answer is No. You are welcome. 

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This hinges on the word "severe". 100% honesty is in many cases realistic but it would obviously involve limitations. For some people, these limitations would be a big deal while others would find it easy to live with them, especially in light of the rewards. I guess it depends on your ambitions and priviledge.

Is there any point in being 100% honest though? Sometimes it merely hurts people or brings about pointless conflicts. People who are mostly honest are rare enough (and much rarer still in some lines of work obviously). What motivates dishonesty makes a world of difference in my experience.

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Posted (edited)

it depends on the context imo... your own context, intentions, the impact it'll do on people. conscious decision-making is crucial when some sort of manipulation is to be applied, at least if we're looking at it in an objectively moral and good way. 

I have no in depth ethics background but this has been my viewpoint thus far. 

Edited by Megan Alecia

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14 minutes ago, commie said:

This hinges on the word "severe". 100% honesty is in many cases realistic but it would obviously involve limitations. For some people, these limitations would be a big deal while others would find it easy to live with them, especially in light of the rewards. I guess it depends on your ambitions and priviledge.

Is there any point in being 100% honest though? Sometimes it merely hurts people or brings about pointless conflicts. People who are mostly honest are rare enough (and much rarer still in some lines of work obviously). What motivates dishonesty makes a world of difference in my experience.

I'm talking self protection, ego defence, social survival. Not dishonesty to avoid hurting peoples feelings. I'm talking never being dishonest to benefit yourself (according to your own assessment).

I know some will talk a big one on this... declaring this and that... but how many beyond Jesus are not being dishonest in those very declarations!? 

There must be some out there (who are not monks) who make a sincere effort in this endeavour 

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I know there are some things I would seriously struggle to be 100% honest about. I can at least be that honest

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26 minutes ago, JosephKnecht said:

When you are intentionally dishonest you assume that telling a lie will give you something better than telling the truth. But how do you know this? You don't know what the future will bring you. Maybe telling the truth will give you something greater.

Telling a lie assumes that YOU know what is better for you, so you intent to trick "the universe" into giving you what you want. But maybe, you are only tricking yourself? Maybe "the universe" knows better what is better for you so you just have to tell it your truth. ;) 

Having said that, if your girlfriend asks you if her butt looks fat in those pants, the answer is No. You are welcome. 

Yes but to what extent do you keep integrity with this sentiment? Would you just admit anything to anyone if they asked you? What if you were unfortunate enough to be hiding socially repugnant things?

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Interesting thing about morality is that it is ultimately informed by intent. Dishonesty, for selfish gain, accumulates negative karma. I came across this earlier today, from the Buddha:

One who says what is not true, one who denies what he has done, both choose the downward course. After death these two become partners in falsehood.

- Dhammapada 22:306

This exemplifies what I see as the flaw in the philosophy of Neo Advaita. Believing that the relative world is only a dream, and therefore morality is unimportant, defies the wisdom that informed Advaita in the first place. God is Love. Acting contrary to your inner nature will lead to suffering, while living with integrity will set you free.

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If you want to talk about honesty you gotta keep 2 things in mind:

1-Practicality: So obviously honesty comes with a lot of great benefits for yourself. Thing is, for practical matters, sometimes you just gotta lie and there’s nothing wrong about that. If you harm other people doing so and you become what Leo call a “devil” that can become a problem for others and for yourself. But all in all there’s nothing wrong in lying for your own benefit sometime. So being honest 100% of the time is a great goal that has great benefits but at the end of the day what is the point of setting a rule out of being honest and keeping yourself from lying when the situation calls for it. Just use your judgement in the given context. Anything that we want to do in our life, in the end, we do it for the GREATER good of us and the collective so you can argue that practicality as its place in every given context. Does it serve anybody in a good way or no? You should treat honesty like any other thing because nothing is good or bad and everything is relative to the given context. Just have fun while being in alignment with THE ALL. 
 

2-Context: So again this ties to what I just said above I just wanna dive more in depth into that. If you wanna be 100% honest for any spiritual or logical reason you are already shooting yourself in the foot as you would have-to come to the conclusion that you have to be honest-to assume that honesty is the “right” thing to do in any way shape or form for whatever reason that you have in the first place. But let’s assume that you just wanna be honest for practical reasons like not creating shadows, not attracting illusions in your life etc. Everything is dependent on the context. 100% honesty is as twisted as 0% honesty because you will inevitably fall into a context when honesty will cause destruction in every way possible and because you will have created a rule out of honesty then you will cause destruction. Nothing is all black or all white. I will even go as far as saying that 100% honesty is complete insanity. Consciousness is not given to you for nothing, the more you become conscious the more you have the capacity to shape shift. Lying and putting on masks only for the sake of it is part of the game of life. Lying can have as much benefits as honesty depending on the given context. This type of questions will give you headaches lol. Just follow you heart, your intuition and ultimately follow your spirit, it knows the way. This kind of question is a question that only a human would ask. Don’t approach these questions from your human perspective. Detach and follow your SELF. You are supposed to use your human side, not losing yourself into it.

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Posted (edited)

To exist is to deceive. Every one of us has an element of deception. Just like a chameleon that changes its color. That's the game of survival. It's inevitable.

 

Edited by NK13

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6 minutes ago, Akira said:

I know there are some things I would seriously struggle to be 100% honest about. I can at least be that honest

Sure, but you don't have to go there. Avoidance isn't dishonesty in my book.

8 minutes ago, Akira said:

I'm talking never being dishonest to benefit yourself (according to your own assessment).

I don't have such clear-cut assessments. Not hurting someone often benefits you as well.

And "never" is a high bar! For instance I don't have a practive of censoring everything I say so I've sometimes being dishonest before I understood what it is I was allowing myself to say. Does that count?

9 minutes ago, Akira said:

There must be some out there (who are not monks) who make a sincere effort in this endeavour 

Lots of people I'd wager. Dishonest is harmful so it's something you're going to want to avoid as a matter of self-interest.

Why do you bring up monks? Not being dishonest is a rule for householders as well.

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no. even if intent to you still lie unconsciosly,

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Posted (edited)

"Stake life upon Truth" -- Jed Mckenna

Actually, no manipulation or lying is necessary. These things are only manifestations of fear. And they're their own punishment. The experience of fear is worse than death, ime.

On the other hand, being authentic is its own reward. But most people are deeply afraid, so they lie and manipulate.

Anyone that says otherwise is deluded and buys into some sort of BS or ideology. That being said, I don't have 100% embodiment.

Edited by Gesundheit

If you have no confidence in yourself, you are twice defeated in the race of life. But with confidence you have won, even before you start.” -- Marcus Garvey

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The book Radical Honesty is a great read.  I admit that of all the self-actualization things I've read, choosing to actually follow through on being 100% authentic seems to be the most difficult.

But hey, be kind and realistic with yourself.  Try to become MORE honest than you were yesterday.  Try to eliminate subtle manipulations.  Know yourself, be yourself.

Even being honest can be dishonest.  Did you tell the jerk at the office they are ugly because it's true?  Or because the "truth" served YOU?  Or manipulates them somehow?  This is deep honesty.  You won't get there immediately.  But keep trying, I think the rewards are outstanding.

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Speak your truth. If your are speaking your truth and what you are saying is trying to achieve some agenda, than your truth in that moment is you are trying to achieve your agenda. Wether or not you choose to continue this intention is upto you. Can the Truth achieve more than your agenda? Absolutely.

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It is possible to live in honesty. But you have to realise, sometimes you have to present your best possible face. You meet a woman, you want her to like you, are you immediately going to tell her all the reasons to dislike you? Everything she should know about you, straight upfront? I don’t know anyone who has met his prospective wife like that...


“Don’t be afraid of experience. The more you experience, the more mature you become.”

— Osho

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10 hours ago, Akira said:

Yes but to what extent do you keep integrity with this sentiment? Would you just admit anything to anyone if they asked you? What if you were unfortunate enough to be hiding socially repugnant things?

To the extent you can. If you can't, that's ok.

You can admit anything only if you have dissolved all your fears. If you have fears, you will try to lie and deceive. 

Maybe revealing these truths will tell more about a repugnant society rather than your "repugnant" nature.

 

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Yea, for sure. But don’t split hairs. Probably a good idea to shake your head and say no if your girlfriend asks if she looks fat regardless of what you think ;)

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