Are psychedelics ULTIMATELY a distraction?

[Skin-encapsulatedego]

I must ask, what exactly do you keep from a psychedelic trip?  Yes, you experience the most profound of awakenings while the substance is within your system.  Though, afterwards, all you have is a memory of the ultra-high state of consciousness.  Any insights you gained are essentially no longer yours, as you do not currently possess the level of consciousness required to truly understand them.  

So, please extensively describe what you believe you keep from a psychedelic trip.  *I hope for this to be the main point of discussion. 

A more accurate conceptual framework of the world?  How helpful is the memory of a psychedelic trip to you at baseline consciousness?  Yes, Truth is Truth, irrespective for however short of a duration it is reached.  When it comes down to it should full devotion not be paid to manual practices to increase permanency (not ultimate permanency, of course) of consciousness?  Psychedelics thereby being almost a distraction to the real work? 

 

I refer here to using psychedelics to contemplate the nature of reality, not for psychotherapeutic purposes or other. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Skin-encapsulatedego
Clarity

[Mafortu]

Most experiences alter baseline consciousness in different magnitudes.

A night of videogames wont do that much but a bungee jump, or fire burning your home, or a breakup, or a trip to the moon will.

My first ayahuasca session changed me, even if I cannot hold that "high", my baseline consciousness is definitely higher than before.

[TheAvatarState]

"Distraction" is in how you use it. Not inherent to a thing or activity.

So, Ultimately, psychedelics are yes and no. The potential for "no" is absolutely in there, just as the potential for "no" is in a car crash. 

[Intraplanetary]

Psychedelic experiences gradually rise my baseline consciousness and I can't help but adjust my daily life to align those experiences and insights I had. 

This is how you grow. Psychedelics enhance your spiritual journey as nothing else.

[Skin-encapsulatedego]

@Mafortu yes, it seems you have the experience and then integrate it as a memory into your conceptual framework.  Resulting in a more complete conceptual framework, yes. 

I agree that this conceptual framework is one component of consciousness.   Of course, we are now getting into the question of what is consciousness, which I find appropriate.  I believe there is a more fundamental, existential awareness component to consciousness.  This is what I believe Sadhguru is referring to when he comments that the spirituality is a process of increasing the amount of energy within your system, eventually culminating in the realisation that you are not merely the physical body etc.  This component of consciousness is what I do not observe psychedelics increasing. 

[BipolarGrowth]

You keep many of the insights even after the trips are over. Yes, some won’t really make sense or apply to your current state of consciousness. The thing you gain is the insights that you keep. The ones that you retain relatively clear memory of can be very helpful. 
 

Meditators experience the same thing. If you realize a peak state during meditation, it typically does not last. Does that mean the peak state was a distraction? Not at all. I’d say lower or baseline states that don’t produce insights are the distraction. 
 

Certain trips can cause you to make lasting changes to your values, habits, and priorities as well. There are even studies that show psilocybin raises your openness trait by one standard deviation permanently. That is absolutely huge. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by BipolarGrowth

[Leo Gura]

The logic of this is very simple:

Psychedelics are ultimately a distraction only if all teachings and techniques ever taught are ultimately a distraction.

If you are going to argue against psychedelics, that's fine. But then stop being a hypocrite and apply all your same arguments to every book, video, guru, ashram, teacher, retreat, workshop, seminar, school, podcast, etc. Because all of these are technologies invented to speed up an otherwise nearly-impossible process.

Without any of these technologies the odds of you awakening would be zero. You would have to be lucky enough to stumble into it by accident.

Don't forget, even the Buddha and Jesus had lots of training. They used many radical techniques. They didn't just stumble into it.

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Khr said:

What techniques did they use? Where can we learn more about this?

The Buddha did 7 years of hardcore yoga practices, all of which he aced. That's before his ultimate enlightenment.

Jesus trained with John The Baptist. Baptism was a technique of holding your head under the water until you nearly drowned, and then in the last second of your life, pulling you out. That was Jesus' teacher. That was Jesus' analogue of a psychedelic experience. Jesus also did a 40 day fast and vision quest int he desert. I'm sure you've heard of it.

If you hold yourself under water until you're nearly dead, you'll have some trippy experience Be careful what you wish for, though.

If I told you guys to do what Buddha or Jesus did to attain enlightenment, you would call me a madman and a criminal. I'm coddling you here like puppies

Psychedelics are what I tell you to do when you're too meek to do a 40 day vision quest in the desert.

[Zigzag Idiot]

6 hours ago, Skin-encapsulatedego said:

I must ask, what exactly do you keep from a psychedelic trip?

To me, one of the most beneficial experiences from psychedelic trips are what’s gotten rid of. Specifically, personality or ego structures that you might say become ruptured. The familiar comfortable way in which we have always framed the world cannot be fixed as before. My first nn dmt trip was fairly traumatic and uncomfortable but that played a crucial role in “killing” a part of me that would not have died otherwise. 
An analogous situation - A Friend of mine once said of a former girlfriend, “ she broke my heart and it was the best thing that ever happened to me.” Before that relationship, he was fairly cocky and a bit arrogant. After she “broke his heart’” he became quite a bit more gentle with people. He gained enormously in having empathy towards others.

[Conscious life]

3 hours ago, Khr said:

What techniques did they use? Where can we learn more about this?

continuous praying, fasting, bapstism, song, reading word of God, etc. 

[Skin-encapsulatedego]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The logic of this is very simple:

Psychedelics are ultimately a distraction only if all teachings and techniques ever taught are ultimately a distraction.

If you are going to argue against psychedelics, that's fine. But then stop being a hypocrite and apply all your same arguments to every book, video, guru, ashram, teacher, retreat, workshop, seminar, school, podcast, etc. Because all of these are technologies invented to speed up an otherwise nearly-impossible process.

Without any of these technologies the odds of you awakening would be zero. You would have to be lucky enough to stumble into it by accident.

Don't forget, even the Buddha and Jesus had lots of training. They used many radical techniques. They didn't just stumble into it.

Thank you.  I was a bit too clickbaity in my titling of this post.  I don't mean to argue against psychedelics.  

Can you discuss the nature of what you keep from psychedelics at your baseline state?  Is it merely an updated conceptual framework?  I feel as if my awakenings on psychedelics have certainly changed me but I am unsure of how, as the states of consciousness where these awakenings were so radically different to my baseline state, that it's hard to truly say I relate to my awakenings at all. 

[Skin-encapsulatedego]

3 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

To me, one of the most beneficial experiences from psychedelic trips are what’s gotten rid of. Specifically, personality or ego structures that you might say become ruptured. The familiar comfortable way in which we have always framed the world cannot be fixed as before. My first nn dmt trip was fairly traumatic and uncomfortable but that played a crucial role in “killing” a part of me that would not have died otherwise. 
An analogous situation - A Friend of mine once said of a former girlfriend, “ she broke my heart and it was the best thing that ever happened to me.” Before that relationship, he was fairly cocky and a bit arrogant. After she “broke his heart’” he became quite a bit more gentle with people. He gained enormously in having empathy towards others.

Yes.  This resonates.  So it is memory of Truth (or how true what is revealed was) that can act as leverage for the ego to change itself.  

[James123]

@Skin-encapsulatedego psychedelics are great tools for someone to improve their current consciousness state and definitely important the changes of getting close to enlightenment. However, most dangerous thing with the psychedelics, thought process still goes on while “you” “experiencing”, because you and experiencing is a thought. And you can be trapped into some type of magnificent experiencing state, and rest of your life “you” will try to “reach at that state”.

However, enlightenment collapsing all dualities, states, thoughts, experiences and belief of “I”. 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by James123

[Bodhitree]

Well, I don’t have any experience with psychedelics — that’s kind of why I am here — but the way I think it works is that the trips temporarily give you the opportunity to experience a new set of beliefs, and so to see things from an entirely different perspective. It then takes time to come down and integrate the experience. 
There is a question about the level at which you understand things. There is a certain maturity that helps you to give context and meaning to what you experience. In meditation these things come forward as well sometimes.

[Intraplanetary]

14 minutes ago, Bodhitree said:

but the way I think it works is that the trips temporarily give you the opportunity to experience a new set of beliefs

Psychedelics actually allow you to experience the illusory nature of beliefs. What you thought is real and unchangeable, you can see that it's actually malleable and not fixed.

I don't get new beliefs from my trips. I get rid of them slowly. What I get are insights about my nature and life which are different from beliefs. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Intraplanetary

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Skin-encapsulatedego said:

Can you discuss the nature of what you keep from psychedelics at your baseline state?

Well, this will vary from person to person.

For me, personally, psychedelics have not increased my baseline state much at all. But they have helped me understand reality at staggering levels of depth that no guru or video or book ever could. I used psychedelics to solve the ultimate riddle of existence. I became completely omniscient. The entire universe makes sense to me now.

[Intraplanetary]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

For me, personally, psychedelics have not increased my baseline state much at all

What does then? / what are your methods of increasing your baseline state? 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Intraplanetary said:

What does then? / what are your methods of increasing your baseline state? 

I have not found any methods that work well for me other than long and tedious-as-fuck full-time meditation retreats.

Realistically you need 100 hours straight of uninterrupted mindfulness concentration.

But even then, you will fall out of that state once you stop the retreat. Changing one's baseline is the hardest thing.

[TheSelf]

@Leo Gura what if holding your head under the water untill you're almost dead results in some sort of more profound or lasting state of consciousness than psychedelics? 

Edited January 7, 2021 by m0hsen

[Thought Art]

@Skin-encapsulatedego No they are not a distraction, but can be. For example the insights from 5meo or LSD have given me insights into creativity, body awareness, forgiveness, God, Mental models, paradigm shifts, etc none of which I could have had otherwise. They are not a distraction (though at times misleading for me... but that is because of my own level of developmental structure, lack of maturity etc) psychs are essentially tools to be used like any other spiritual tool. I think our culture doesn't understand them and the fear of being 'high on drugs' , dualism and 'war of drugs' mentality, fear of being seen as a  'drug user' all make it more challenging. Not to mention the immaturity that comes from recreational psychedelic use in pop culture... 

I think ultimately it is up to you and how you use them in your life. If 'just in time learning' was a thing in personal development, there may be times that doing a psych is a good idea, and times when it is a distraction. Your level of awareness and self knowledge will determine this. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Thought Art