There is No Distance

[nitramadas]

7 minutes ago, seeking_brilliance said:

Gosh I hope I'm in the teir which is loving and understanding and accepting of 'lower' ones... Also which tier is good for contributing in lieu of complaining? Hopefully I can be in both tiers at once ?

When I get to the one where I'm above everyone else, please shake me off the ladder. 

Nice, joining in the mob mentality having admitted defeat in the other thread..  That's very mature of you, guess your being Green really DOESN'T have any bearing on your personality.  Guess I was wrong all along, Green or Yellow, it's all the same!  You're TOTALLY not proving my point..  I feel SO BAD for suggesting Yellow might be nicer to interact with than Orange and Green.  I now see that Green certainly is NOT much more likely to engage in mob mentality behavior!   Wow!  I am blown away!  Maybe I am like an Orange or something!  You guys are CLEARLY more mature and evolved than me!  I guess I REAALLLY overestimated myself!  hahahaha.   Well done.  Thank you for OPENING my eyes!  I am now on my way to becoming a superior Green! WOOOO!!!!!! 

[seeking_brilliance]

Ok, just real talk now... I've been waiting forever for someone to give me a colour reading... I don't really study spiral dynamics, but I watched a few of Leo's videos. Perhaps some of the few I've ever listened to.  So I did wonder if I was blue to green, but didn't really know enough for self diagnosis. So I really have to thank you for being the one to do the reading. 

But as far as mob mentality I really don't know what you mean. I was answering from my heart, as I always do. 

Also, I'm playing a role. Sometimes consciously, someone's unconsciously.  When you come on here, do you see any roles you may take on? 

Edited November 12, 2020 by seeking_brilliance

[The0Self]

What a fuckin wild ride this life shit is huh?

[nitramadas]

14 minutes ago, seeking_brilliance said:

Ok, just real talk now... I've been waiting forever for someone to give me a colour reading... I don't really study spiral dynamics, but I watched a few of Leo's videos. Perhaps some of the few I've ever listened to.  So I did wonder if I was blue to green, but didn't really know enough for self diagnosis. So I really have to thank you for being the one to do the reading. 

wth, it's so obvious you're Green  (though I guess I am pretty accurate at this).  It's weird how you debate with me, but have no intellectual inclinations.  

 

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But as far as mob mentality I really don't know what you mean. I was answering from my heart, as I always do. 

Just the Moksha guy before you.  Seemed like you saw an opportunity to add fuel to the fire (which I've started to expect from this forum).  Some of the people on here just can't accept the fact that higher stages exist, and see any mention of this as a personal attack. The fact I can't speak openly without being judged every time is a result of the prevalence of Tier 1 on this forum.  I have absolutely nothing against Tier 1, almost everyone I know is Tier 1, and as Tier 2, my capacity to love Tier 1 is even greater than Green's.  But I don't come here to engage in Orange/Green discussions.  This is the one place where there's the possibility for Tier 2 conversation, so some of the Tier 1s trying to occupy it & acting aggressively when you complain is.. disappointing.

 

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Also, I'm playing a role. Sometimes consciously, someone's unconsciously.  When you come on here, do you see any roles you may take on? 

Usually Yellow as debating engages the intellect.  Sometimes Turquoise if I don't have anything overly intellectual to think about.  

Some of the more specific roles I take on here include:  The teacher; the expert; the designer; the non-conformist; the futurist; the innovator; the challenger; the artist; the extravert; the consultant; the outsider; the insider; the devil's advocate; the computer guy; the Inquisitor; the Tier 2 representative..

If you know a bunch of psychological models, then my About Me would tell you a lot.

[VeganAwake]

I have yet to meet anyone that isn't all over this spiral in some way shape or form. Placing a center of gravity for oneself in this model is merely perspectival and simply doesn't hold up under close scrutiny.

Spiral Dynamics is pointing to everything exactly the way it is.

[seeking_brilliance]

Love ?

Edited November 12, 2020 by seeking_brilliance

[Moksha]

15 hours ago, nitramadas said:

THIS is PRECISELY why I said what I said.  I HAVE to be SO careful about what I say or you people turn hostile on me. 

No hostility here, bro  I wasn't referring to you. I was just calling out the sneakiness of the ego. Any time I catch myself judging another person, or judging myself in comparison to another person, it is always my ego. Letting go of judgment has been one of my spiritual practices.

I don't usually like to get into discussions of free will, since it can feel confusing or even threatening to people. Some people may want to avoid this paragraph for that reason  When I said every color is inevitable, I was giving a nod to this. One color cannot exist without every other color existing. The rainbow dissolves unless each of its colors is present. Whatever color we are is the color Consciousness has chosen for us. If we are intended to move to a new color, Consciousness will paint us there. This is no personal achievement in spiritual growth. There is no reason for pride that we are X or shame that we are Y. I don't talk about this much, since it isn't usually useful. People need a sense that they are exerting effort, and making choices to grow. And they actually are, but not for the reason they think they are. The illusion that "we" are moving up the hierarchy of spiritual growth is fine, as long as "we" don't take too much credit for it.

Thank you again for sharing the primer on spiral dynamics. I enjoyed reading it, and considering how each color relates to different layers of identity that have conditioned me over the years. In that sense, I find spiral dynamics a useful multi-dimensional mirror for personal growth.

This forum has taught me valuable lessons about teaching others. Unrequested instruction tends to fall on deaf ears at best, or to invoke hostility at worst. Also, it is important to teach in the language of the learner. Sometimes I share things that seem to go over people's heads. It is not that I am "higher" than they are; it is a language barrier. Things that seem obvious to you or me may not make sense to someone else. I remember reading The Power of Now, and dismissing it as drivel. The book stayed on my shelf for years, but when I read it again, everything suddenly made sense. The book didn't change; I changed. I was ready for the teaching.

Rather than labeling someone a certain color, perhaps it would be useful for those wanting to participate to find the color(s) that best reflect(s) their current experience. We can be a resource for them to bounce questions and get feedback, but it will be helpful if they are at the helm. There is a place for teaching, but meaningful growth always comes from within.

I'm sure you know all this already. I'm only suggesting it as a framework for our community, should we go down the spiral dynamic rabbit hole.

[VeganAwake]

@Moksha  love that, you are a good guy to have around the forum ❤

Now if I can just convince you that the singular consciousness theory is just another deeply conditioned belief within the dream story, my life's work will be complete ?

Hehe totally joking bro...enjoy reading your loving comments ❤

[Moksha]

@VeganAwake Right back at ya ?

Not to complete your life's work or anything, but I agree with you that singular Consciousness is just another belief  I got in trouble with a certain forum owner on the day I joined by calling nonduality a theory. I don't talk about it much, but even nonduality cannot exist without duality. Ultimately, Tat is the Mystery that cannot be understood. It underlies even nonduality and duality.  I keep telling people not to try making sense of it with their maths, but it's like we can't help ourselves.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Moksha

[VeganAwake]

3 hours ago, Moksha said:

@VeganAwake Right back at ya ?

Not to complete your life's work or anything, but I agree with you that singular Consciousness is just another belief  I got in trouble with a certain forum owner on the day I joined by calling nonduality a theory. I don't talk about it much, but even nonduality cannot exist without duality. Ultimately, Tat is the Mystery that cannot be understood. It underlies even nonduality and duality.  I keep telling people not to try making sense of it with their maths, but it's like we can't help ourselves.

Oh gotcha....yep its unknowable, and totally can't help trying to know. Attempting to find something that was never missing or looking for the invisible needle in the haystack.... the sometimes unfunny cosmic joke. ❤ ?

[nitramadas]

On 12/11/2020 at 5:10 AM, VeganAwake said:

Placing a center of gravity for oneself in this model is merely perspectival and simply doesn't hold up under close scrutiny.

This goes against every interpretation of the model I've heard of and robs it of any real value imo.  What makes SD useful is that it guides you and informs you of what you should be aiming for.  It would also be a blatant mistake to think someone at Red has elements of Turquoise or is capable of understanding the motivations of Green.  The stages aren't 'personalities' or 'parts we all have some amount of' like you seem to believe.  Don't mistake them for a rainbow or something just because they're named after colors, those are just made up names.  Each stage is complete in itself and capable of containing every personality type.  A society could, in theory, be made up of 100% Red (though much more likely Purple & Red).  A thousand years ago, Turquoise, essentially, didn't exist.  Neither did Yellow.  Blue was the peak for a very long time.  The stages are levels of awareness.  Their common traits are just that.  It's like when a kid learn the word "why" and starts constantly asking their parents "why" for a period of type.  Is it because "everyone has a bit of 'the why phase' in them" and the kid actually always had it and always will?  Or is it because they've gained awareness of the existence of the concept of "why" and is now just going through a phase?  

Gaining awareness = something's changed = behavioral changes = [insert description of SD stage here]

You seem to be unaware of the fundamental awareness component and believe the SD stages are nothing more than their common behavioral manifestations.  Perhaps this is why they say SD is a Yellow+ model (all models really).

"Placing a center of gravity for oneself in this model" is the very core idea of the model and is the only thing that "holds up to scrutiny".  Have you not seen Leo's videos on this?  This isn't really something being debated.  You have a centre somewhere, and it can be blurry where, but it's definitely somewhere.  Green is the "anti-hierarchy" stage, so of course, you're gonna be predisposed to such Green ideas, as you've demonstrated..  Can you see now how everyone's a specific stage?  Within 3–10 seconds of reading what someone's written I can identify what stage they are.  If everyone had every stage, this would be impossible.  Everyone always falls into one.  It is because of this fact that I can predict people's behavior to ..a scarily accurate degree.  By this I mean I creep myself out by predicting what I didn't think I should be able to "surely, people can't be that simple; that algorithmic.." and then it plays out like I guessed.  So far, every single person who's challenged me in any way on this forum has been extremely consistent for the stage I determined them to be—not a single exception.  Greens act Green; Oranges act Orange; Blues act Blue..  I guess that's about it.. lol.  Not enough data on T2.

 

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I have yet to meet anyone that isn't all over this spiral in some way shape or form.

Like I said, each stage is complete in itself.  You're not seriously suggesting that everyone you know has some Red, Yellow and Turquoise in them are you?  Ever heard of "transcend and include"?  Even if you think the stages are just "personalities", each stage transcends the prior one and includes it.  But since the stages are not personalities and are, instead, levels of awareness, your stance makes even less sense.

 

12 hours ago, Moksha said:

No hostility here, bro  I wasn't referring to you. 

s-sure..  you totally didn't realize it could be interpreted as aggressive..

 

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I was just calling out the sneakiness of the ego. Any time I catch myself judging another person, or judging myself in comparison to another person, it is always my ego. Letting go of judgment has been one of my spiritual practices.

err.. Maybe you hadn't notice, but I'm an INTP  : )   ..Not INTJ.  I don't judge.  (＾▽＾)

If it looks like I'm judging, it's in the way you'd judge people who like pineapple on pizza.  

I """judge""" people *intellectually* or in *personality* or *how their taste relates to my own* 

I might call out the lower stages on their BS, but it's not that I judge them, it's just that I'm one of the few that has the capability to notice their problems.  And, sure, since SD is a hierarchy, disclosing my stage could, potentially, elevate me in some way.  But that's not much different to someone saying "I'm an American!".  Being part of the world's only superpower could elevate someone in some social situations.  But that's fine.  Not my problem (in fact, can't be my problem) if someone gets upset at me stating the facts.

 

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One color cannot exist without every other color existing. The rainbow dissolves unless each of its colors is present. Whatever color we are is the color Consciousness has chosen for us. If we are intended to move to a new color, Consciousness will paint us there.

Umm, maybe read what I said to the other guy..  (◠﹏◠;)

 

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This is no personal achievement in spiritual growth.......... The illusion that "we" are moving up the hierarchy of spiritual growth is fine, as long as "we" don't take too much credit for it.

Of course!  : )

You must've been in Green for a while now  ..this is almost the kind of thing I would say..  ヽ( •_)ᕗ 

There's a bit more to it that that  (..though it's beyond stage Green.. [lol, there's no way to say that without sounding arrogant..] I know Green and there are things not worth bothering with.)

 

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I find spiral dynamics a useful multi-dimensional mirror for personal growth

Hmm, sounds like I should say "what I said to the other guy".

 

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This forum has taught me valuable lessons about teaching others. Unrequested instruction tends to fall on deaf ears at best, or to invoke hostility at worst.

Yeah, that's an important thing to learn.  Usually comes around the end of Green and can last up until early Turquoise ime.  This is where Green can slowly start becoming Yellow.  The downsides of collectivism start becoming apparent, subconsciously.  The Green stops talking about rainbows and happy hippy ideas of consciousness; stops judging hierarchies; and stops judging those who don't judge hierarchies.

 

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it is important to teach in the language of the learner. Sometimes I share things that seem to go over people's heads. It is not that I am "higher" than they are; it is a language barrier. Things that seem obvious to you or me may not make sense to someone else.

I'd say it's an awareness barrier when talking about SD.  It's not that people could just get a reference book and understand you after a day/week/year/decade/century of study.  Blues who are in their 40s now have almost no chance of ever becoming Orange.  It's not just a lack of knowledge.  You can't upgrade a computer by adding more stuff to its HDD.  That stuff may be useful in some practical way, but the computer won't be any better.  Though, acid can defrag the HDD, and that can be pretty healthy for someone who's never defragged and isn't too ancient.

 

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I remember reading The Power of Now, and dismissing it as drivel. The book stayed on my shelf for years, but when I read it again, everything suddenly made sense. The book didn't change; I changed. I was ready for the teaching.

Ah.  The classic "Orange→Green" transformation.

*pats you on the back twice*

 

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Rather than labeling someone a certain color, perhaps it would be useful for those wanting to participate to find the color(s) that best reflect(s) their current experience.

.. No. 

 

Haven't you been listening?

 

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We can be a resource for them to bounce questions and get feedback, but it will be helpful if they are at the helm.

Hmm, you mean like..  creating stage-specific sections for the forum in which users could give questions to the people at each color section?  And where people of the same color could talk amongst themselves knowing the conversation will not stray away from that stage? Like what I was saying earlier in this thread?  lol.  Well, I agree with your agreeing with me..  I, too, am in favor of segregating people of color.  At least we can agree on that  : )

Edited November 13, 2020 by nitramadas

[seeking_brilliance]

I have a feeling that 'tier 2' section of the forum would be quite hilarious to observe... Ok I'm in, let's do it! 

Edited November 13, 2020 by seeking_brilliance

[abrakamowse]

2 hours ago, seeking_brilliance said:

I have a feeling that 'tier 2' section of the forum would be quite hilarious to observe... Ok I'm in, let's do it! 

Where? and when?

[Moksha]

@nitramadas Hierarchies are fun as a mirror. I'm not sure they are pragmatic for personal growth though. If a yellow aspires to turquoisity, what can they actually do to repaint themselves? Realizing that you are a certain color won't change anything. Consciousness is the painter, not the person looking in the mirror. It's fun to reflect, though.

Deeper receptivity of multidimensional trans-rational perceptions

Consciousness is the transcendent dimension, imminently infusing itself through every form in the dream dimension, delighting at the peekaboo moments when the dimensions converge

I can see hierarchies being helpful for a teacher. If you are able to see the color of a person's current awareness, maybe it is easier to customize your teaching to their awareness. Also, it can help you know when not to teach.

Then again, Consciousness has a way of doing that for you. The same light shines through the world diamond, casting every color. I love parables, because of their universal application. The best parables illuminate people at all levels, customizing the lesson for each person, without the speaker needing to know anything about the color of the learners.

The Buddha that is your avatar lived thousands of years ago. He realized darkness, and he became all colors.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Moksha

[VeganAwake]

The importance of humanity transcending up the spiral kind of fell apart here when it was recognized the only thing that thought that should happen was my ego. That being said there's absolutely nothing right or wrong with using Spiral Dynamics, making the world a better place to live etc...

[seeking_brilliance]

Someone could start a tier2 discussion thread at any time... no need for a special subforum...

[Shin]

This idea of a forum for certain categories of people feels like apartheid.

The point of evolving a culture is to let everyone in and participate, not by having more division.

The point of spiritual awakening is not to put more labels on you, but to let go of all of them.

Jesus

Edited November 13, 2020 by Shin

[Moksha]

@Shin You called? ? ?

[QandC]

Ok...what did I miss? Seems this has gone a bit out of topic

Edited November 14, 2020 by QandC

[abrakamowse]

4 minutes ago, QandC said:

Ok...what did I miss? Seems this has gone a bit out of topic

Let's go back to topic.

:-)

 

If there's no distance really, what happens when you walk towards an object that look far? But in reality is that you see the object smaller. But why it seems that I am walking towards it and the object becomes (or appears) bigger???

Edited November 14, 2020 by abrakamowse