PurpleTree

Why is eating meat "bad" or less evolved lets say?

340 posts in this topic

I'm not defending the current beef industry in the U.S. but if you want beef finished out to have the quality taste people are used to. That takes corn, cottonseed mill, soybeans, or other substitutes depending on different crop conditions for a particular year. There's a small slice of genetically engineered angus cattle that do real well converting grass into lbs of flesh but pretty much the idea of grass fattened beef is propaganda and fallacy.


"To have a free mind is to be a universal heretic." - A.H. Almaas

"We have to bless the living crap out of everyone." - Matt Kahn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Tarzan said:

Lol for me the q was answered when I decided to trip on LSD and imagined myself as another being. Expand your sense of self and apply love. Vegan makes the most sense to me if you expand your sense of self to include other beings like animals. If you do that you will not want to eat meat or animal products. But also since you love yourself, you make sure to do regular bloodwork to see if you cover your nutrients.

as far as I know B12 is a must take supplement, that's basically it. You can cover all other nutrients you need with a well planned vegan diet (a wide variety of whole foods).

If you are a woman then you might need to pay attention to your iron levels, so doing bloodwork and seeing if your iron levels are ok is most important. If you confirm that you iron deficient then you need a strategy to correct it - more iron containing foods with vitamin C (helps absorption) or a supplement. Iodine is something not too hard to get, but might get deficient in if you don't use iodized salt or seaweeds like kombu (kombu has too much idoine so use within limits), wakame, etc.

carnitine, taurine, creatine not necessary unless you want to max out gym gains, in which case creatine is prob most effective, carnitine and taurine small effect.

Vitamin A - eat your carrots, or sweet potatoes, or other veggies. Vitamin D - get noon sunlight exposure, or take supplement if not possible.

As for anti-nutrients. Phytates are nutritious by themselves - anticancer effects. Although they decrease absopriton of some minerals, prob not a problem unless you confirm your levels are low. Oxalates - high in spinach, swiss cahrd, and some other foods, not a problem unless you have confirmed gut issues related to it.

Protein not a problem, absorption is good, while the ratio of essential amino acids is lower, you will get them in adequate amounts unless you only eat very low portein sources regularly for a long time. If you want to maximize gym gains look into protein powders, TVP, or gluten (healthy unless gluten intolerant which is like 1% of population). There are studies showing plant based protein powders work as well as whey. And if you compare vegans and omnivores, while matching protein intake, no difference in muscle gains. The only caveat here is that the amino acid leucine needs to be above 2g per meal as it signals the body to build more muscle tissue. That is about 30 g of plant based protein per meal which is easy to get with tofu, legumes, or just TVP, protein powders.

Basics - eat enough calories, eat a variety of foods, get regular bloodwork done to confirm you're doing ok.

I haven't expanded my sense of self to plants yet though, not that advanced atm. I wonder how they feel.

 

This is the vegan bubble, all questions answered from vegan lens. A real path forward involves learning from all communities. Observing 100s of peoples journeys with all diets, observing different treatment methods for different health issues. learning how different doctors/health care practitioners with different philosophy went about treating issues. Look at the results. 

How does cancer work? What causes it? How to threat it? What to eat and why? 

Answer these questions from every community. What does every community have to say about it?

They all have completely different reasons and answers to every question. With a wide range of results. 

Stop subscribing only to vegans on youtube. Learn from all resources. 

Edited by integral

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, datamonster said:

Even if we leave aside personal values, environmental considerations and predispositions one may have, still not all perspectives are equally valid.

Carnivore dieters are the flat-earthers of the nutrition world. Once you understand the basics you can discard such perspectives.

Everyone stuck in a bubble says this... This is the nature of the bubble. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, integral said:

Answer these questions from every community. What does every community have to say about it?

Of course, it's great to learn from a wide range of perspectives.

But even if we leave aside personal values, environmental considerations and predispositions one may have, still not all perspectives are equally valid.

Carnivore dieters are the flat-earthers of the nutrition world. Once you understand the basics you can discard such perspectives very quickly, and you don't have to spend the rest of your life listening to flat-earth bullshit.


Just try not to be a dick. - Buddha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@datamonster Lets image in the future they prove that a meat only diet has the highest success rate curing cancer. Would your belief change?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, integral said:

@datamonster Lets image in the future they prove that a meat only diet has the highest success rate curing cancer. Would your belief change?

Well, according to the WHO excessive meat consumption actually causes cancer. But for the sake of argument let's just assume this was true.

This would pose the same moral question that we have with animal testing: Is it OK to exploit animals if it can help humans?

This is a deep philosophical question and I haven't fully made up my mind yet.

I guess, it might be OK as a cancer treatment similar to chemotherapy. But as a long-term diet for a healthy person it would still be irresponsible for sure.

Edited by datamonster

Just try not to be a dick. - Buddha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Tarzan The description given is reason not to eat animals for people stuck at orange, its a very different matter at the yellow and turquoise level. This is not a moral debate. We all love animals past green, but yellow recognize that we are carnivores and understands the circle of life, beyond yellow accepts its self, green is very much in denial of human biology. 

Explain the yellow and turqoise perspective and why it leads to killing and eating animals. If your argument is that a well planned vegan diet is not sustainable for your health then you are wrong, there is no conclusive proof of that. Key word: well planned. What does it mean to be a carnivore? If you mean that you need to eat meat to sustain yourself then that is wrong, there are examples that show this is not the case - people can live just as good or even better not eating meat (or eggs, dairy). If by circle of life by the traditional, or 'natural' way that we used to sustain ourselves - by killing and eating animals - then that doesn't prove we have to continue that way, especially if we find alternatives that work just as well. The circle of life is not a constant, it can change. There are differences between how to make an omnivore diet work vs a vegan diet work, as long as  they are well planned both are healthy. I'm not saying you have to go vegan, but stop trying to convince others that veganism doesn't work and they should revert back. If you want to prove to yourself that a vegan diet can work then it won't be simple, you have to put it to the test for yourself, and no half-ass it because that's how you revert back to thinking it doesn't work.

I probably do 10 times more work and research on nutrition than you do. The reason why I've chosen vegan is that it is one of the only diets that includes a more wider perspecitve than other diets - most diets just focus on eating healthy and getting lean. You can do that just as well on a vegan diet, but you now include an environmental and ethical perspective. 

When I do my research my agenda is on practicality and living a conscious lifestyle. By practicality I mean eating the foods I like and produce results with muscle building (no dif between plant-based protein and animal protein as long as protein intake is equated), and a healthy diet (prioritize whole foods, minimize processed, calorie-dense, saturated fatty, and toxin-dense foods (fatty meats concentrate toxins through bioaccumulation)).

By a conscious lifestyle I mean knowing the impact my lifestyle has - my purchasing habits - what state of society do I support by buying meat vs plants for example - environmental concerns (animal agriculture loses), ethical concerns - animal agricultures loses again, biiiig time (and I think you or someone else mentioned about plant agriculture killing small ruminants that wander onto the fields, regrettably this is so, but according to studies the 'sum of suffering' is reduced signifacntly with no animal agriculture at all - because to feed the animals themselves we have to raise more crops, by a significant margin (there are billions of farm-raised animals, don't remember exact number but far more animals than there are humans, so no shit we need to raise more crops) By reducing animal farming we also reduce the need for plant agriculture - therefore reducing suffering to wild ruminants wandering in the fields in sum, not to mention not allowing cows, pigs, chicken to suffer for our pleasure and convenience. If you want to present the argument that because we eliminate animal farming, we need to produce more crops to sustain ourselves, then consider that studies show that if we didn't feed animals the  food crops produce, we could feed 11 billion people with amount we produce today, so we would still reduce the amount of crops.

I suppose you would now think that veganism is even more wrong, because it isn't healthy. That's not true. If you compare different varieties of cancer, heart disease, hypertension etc, then you would not find a significant difference when calories and other confounding factors are accounted for, or even find that no animal food seems to work better for some cases - heart disease for example, since plant foods contain far less saturated fat, usually. I don't know what else to say. I could ask your own perspective - what do you eat and why? If you eat meat because you like the taste of it and don't want to give that up then that's fine. But if you say that eating meat is healthier, and no difference ethically/environmentally, then I just have to disagree with you and will stop arguing with you at this point.

Edited by Tarzan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, integral said:

@datamonster Have you ever eaten a fruit and then had a seizure from it within 10 min of consumption? Repeatedly, for months? 

giphy.gif

 


Just try not to be a dick. - Buddha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

25 minutes ago, Tarzan said:

I probably do 10 times more work and research on nutrition than you do.

Why? Are you studying/working in a related domain professionally?

27 minutes ago, Tarzan said:

but stop trying to convince others that veganism doesn't work and they should revert back.

Not doing this, been telling them to try something new and experiment. See how there body feels. Everyone that begins there health journey becomes a vegan, thats what culture tells everyone is healthiest. Culture also tells people meat will give them heart attacks, stroke and clog arteries. They then absorb everything they can from the vegan community. I did this and from the post earlier i believe you are doing this. 

 

37 minutes ago, Tarzan said:

When I do my research my agenda is on practicality and living a conscious lifestyle.

Excellent, But this is a mix up of vegan diet and vegan lifestyle trends. Its possible to do this on any diet.

Vegan and its lifestyle branding is a billion $ industry. Where there are profits to be made there is a strong incentive for misinformation. 

 

39 minutes ago, Tarzan said:

The reason why I've chosen vegan is that it is one of the only diets that includes a more wider perspecitve than other diets

Are you sure? 

 

44 minutes ago, Tarzan said:

. If your argument is that a well planned vegan diet is not sustainable for your health then you are wrong, there is no conclusive proof of that.

All diets are sustainable, the human body is an incredible adaptive survival machine. Its only under sickness that the bodies abilities to mange stress are overloaded and the stressors placed on the body from food are exaggerated. The stress caused by that food is revealed. 

This can be learned from direct experience or by studying diet focused treatment methods for various health problems. 

 

52 minutes ago, Tarzan said:

you have to put it to the test for yourself

I was a vegan for 10 years. Really consider why someone would change from that position? Study the ex-vegans. If at least to avoid there mistakes. 

 

54 minutes ago, Tarzan said:

By practicality I mean eating the foods I like and produce results with muscle building (no dif between plant-based protein and animal protein as long as protein intake is equated), and a healthy diet (prioritize whole foods, minimize processed, calorie-dense, saturated fatty, and toxin-dense foods (fatty meats concentrate toxins through bioaccumulation)).

I agree mostly. I get my meat from a grass-fed farm, pasture raised. 

Words like "whole foods", "saturated fat" this stuff is unclear...

The carnivore community believes cholesterol is healthy, for example.

And all communities have all the "studies" and "science" they need to believe what ever they want. 

There is no science/proof, happening anywhere. The incentive in most of our social systems is to maximize profits. Science does exceptionally well when profits are aligned with truth, like technology. In areas that misconceptions are profitable like the pharmaceutical industry, the science there is comply fraudulent. The entire health industry is built around sickness for profit. 

 

56 minutes ago, Tarzan said:

By a conscious lifestyle I mean knowing the impact my lifestyle has - my purchasing habits - what state of society do I support by buying meat vs plants for example - environmental concerns (animal agriculture loses), ethical concerns - animal agricultures loses again, biiiig time (and I think you or someone else mentioned about plant agriculture killing small ruminants that wander onto the fields, regrettably this is so, but according to studies the 'sum of suffering' is reduced signifacntly with no animal agriculture at all - because to feed the animals themselves we have to raise more crops, by a significant margin (there are billions of farm-raised animals, don't remember exact number but far more animals than there are humans, so no shit we need to raise more crops) By reducing animal farming we also reduce the need for plant agriculture - therefore reducing suffering to wild ruminants wandering in the fields in sum, not to mention not allowing cows, pigs, chicken to suffer for our pleasure and convenience. If you want to present the argument that because we eliminate animal farming, we need to produce more crops to sustain ourselves, then consider that studies show that if we didn't feed animals the  food crops produce, we could feed 11 billion people with amount we produce today, so we would still reduce the amount of crops.

Mindful living. solid. 

 

1 hour ago, Tarzan said:

Explain the yellow and turqoise perspective and why it leads to killing and eating animals.

Systems thinking. Leo has video on it or leos video on yellow SD is pretty great. 

There is a moving away from survival. Personal needs and values no longer cloud vision. A synthesis of all perspectives occur, unbiasedly. Proof is understood to be fiction. A question have journeys not answers. There are no more strongly or emotionally held beliefs. 

The tools needed to navigate the chaos are unlocked. 

There is no self or other, it is all one body. 

Like cells in a body are constantly born and consumed. Brith and death of all living things is the same process.

All living things are one large collective organism, seperation is an illusion.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@integral I meant your perpective on nutrition / health, rather than specifically Y/T. Also 10 years veganism, you can elaborate more if you like.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Tarzan said:

@integral I meant your perpective on nutrition / health, rather than specifically Y/T. Also 10 years veganism, you can elaborate more if you like.

This is normally not productive, topic is to large. 

Carbohydrates rich foods are a major stressor on the body. Including complex carbs. When the body is healthy it can manage the stress. In general high=carb vegans are constantly hungry, cold (body) and emotional (low blood sugar), would put this in the not well planned section. 

Calorie-dense food vegans do pretty well if they can tolerate the food (constipated). 

Was a vegan for 10 years, felt great, but had digestive discomforts, slowly digestion became worst, until i was hospitalized with seizures and chronic pain, with years of experimentation/study eventually tried eating meat against everything i believed, perfect digestion. Went striked carnivore, energy levels and mental clarity significantly improved.  All major health issues stopped within a month. This is the standard ex-vegan story. 

Edited by integral

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, integral said:

This is normally not productive, topic is to large. 

Carbohydrates rich foods are a major stressor on the body. Including complex carbs. When the body is healthy it can manage the stress. In general high=carb vegans are constantly hungry, cold (body) and emotional (low blood sugar), would put this in the not well planned section. 

Calorie-dense food vegans do pretty well if they can tolerate the food. 

Was a vegan for 10 years, felt great, but had digestive discomforts, slowly digestion became worst, until i was hospitalized with seizures and chronic pain, with years of experimentation/study eventually tried eating meat against everything i believed, perfect digestion. Went striked carnivore, energy levels and mental clarity significantly improved.  All major health issues stopped within a month. This is the standard ex-vegan story. 

Have you ever tried the lectin free diet?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Have you ever tried the lectin free diet?

Yes, plant paradox. After resolving my issues, im able to eat anything with out issue, went back to experiment with everything. Like just drinking olive oil strictly for a week, strictly avocados, strictly potatoes.  Was intersecting, various results. But nothing was better then carnivore diet.

Interesting thing is when eating this way often the body stop pooping completely, everything is absorbed. There is no waist. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, integral said:

Yes, plant paradox. After resolving my issues, im able to eat anything with out issue, went back to experiment with everything. Like just drinking olive oil strictly for a week, strictly avocados, strictly potatoes.  Was intersecting, various results. But nothing was better then carnivore diet.

Interesting thing is when eating this way often the body stop pooping completely, everything is absorbed. There is no waist. 

Yup Dr. Gundry. How long have you been on the meat diet until your gut healed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, integral said:

Went striked carnivore, energy levels and mental clarity significantly improved.  All major health issues stopped within a month. This is the standard ex-vegan story. 

If you can swing your pendulum from vegan straight to carnivore, you were never vegan.

Veganism is an ethic. It's about your values and sharing the recognition that animals are sentient beings that want to live as much as we do. This is your core value. Core values are not something you change like your underwear.

What your saying sounds like you're just jumping on whatever is trendy right now. Today it's veganism, tomorrow carnivore diet.

I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again: Since veganism is an ethic and not a diet, it is utterly absurd to talk about it in terms of health. When someone says he is a vegan that tells you nothing about his actual diet. He could be eating nothing but french fries and Oreos all day and he'd still be vegan.


Just try not to be a dick. - Buddha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@PurpleTree Took a month for most of my life to return while carnivore, but it took a few years of testing and experimenting to figure out what was causing the food intolerances and how to resolve it. Misinformation...

Edited by integral

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now