Leo and everyone, have ALL your existential questions been answered?

[Adamq8]

@Nahm beautiful explanation ?

[Moksha]

@Nahm In an infinite reality, every possibility, however remote, is eventualized. The universe is not infinite, but considering its vastness, it is statistically impossible that this planet and our species would not exist. Especially when you calculate at the level of the multiverse.

Everything we observe is perception and thought. What else could it be? The question is whether consciousness is a byproduct of the brain, or whether consciousness exists beyond the brain. Since nobody has reliably proven consciousness outside of the brain, I am unwilling to accept it as fact. I have experienced it myself, but even so I cannot rule out the subjectivity of my own experience.

@Adamq8 Anyone who is honest has no idea what happens after death. My current opinion is that at death our physical bodies, our brains, our emotions, and our personalities dissolve back into the cosmic soup that they came from. I like to think there is consciousness after death (even better, that consciousness simply is, independent of time and space), but that is only a projection at this point.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Moksha

[PopoyeSailor]

14 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Thank you for sharing the link. If you read through it, the first four sheaths are all tied to the physical body since they require the five sense organs to be active. Only the final sheath, Anandamaya, doesn't reference the senses.

The Point is that the senses themselves are just that: SENSES(Experiences of varied Types). They are not physical in nature. But, they correspond to physical reality through physical body and brain firings. But, even without the body, the individuality and sensory experiences continue. Only when complete liberation happens, then individuality dissolves into infinite Brahman(Infinite Consciousness / Oneness).

That is why I previously explained it in terms of dream reality where dream brain seems to control dream character. But, in truth both are non-existent and Imaginary.

What we call as senses like visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, taste are just different configurations of infinite consciousness into those forms called senses. Consciousness does not have a restriction as to how many different types of senses it can configure itself into. Humans only have those five.

During NN-DMT experiences, or even during meditation, people experience certain types of experiences which are not at all in the realm of our ordinary five senses. During such occasions new type of sensory realities are experienced which cannot be explained or perceived or understood through the ordinary five senses that we have; just like a blind person from birth who never seen colors can never be made to understand the reality of colors / visual perception.

Among all the different types of experiences consciousness can configure itself into, physical reality is just a certain type of configuration which only makes it seem physical. 

 

20 minutes ago, Moksha said:

But this is only one of many perspectives on ultimate reality. I resonate with eastern philosophy, but I recognize it as such. There is no objective evidence for its claims. For example, I see no reliable evidence for reincarnation.

 

Just like we have our current experience of realities and truths, similarly there are after-life truths and realities as well which we experience after physical death. But, in truth all of these are just dream of the one infinite consciousness.

Reincarnation research:

50 Years of research: 

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/our-research/children-who-report-memories-of-previous-lives/fifty-years-of-research/

You can find links for academic publications on this page below:

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/publications/

Jame Leininger's Case Report from Official NIH government website:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27079216/

Full PDF of Paper above:https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2017/04/REI42-Tucker-James-LeiningerPIIS1550830716000331.pdf

[Moksha]

@PopoyeSailor Without the five sense organs (which are unavoidably physical), the five senses experienced through those organs are no longer possible. A blind man cannot see.

On out of  body experiences, I referenced that in my recommendation of Return from Tomorrow. I have read quite a few books about this, and that is one of my favorites.

That said, I have yet to find reliable objective evidence for any of these claims. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but then again neither is it evidence.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Moksha

[Adamq8]

@Moksha i understand your point and it is a valid argument, i have also felt that way and thought that way and can still doubt things aswell, like the brain and when we die we are dead and it will be like deep sleep forever, the thing is tho that after enough "GOD conciousness" moments you know in your being what you are, conciousness is like planes,  degrees and levels, when the insight hits like a mofo and your whole being just shifts so extremely and so out of the blue that u go WHAT?? HOW IS THIS TRUE? Then the brain story and whole life, everything dissapears but one thing remains , that you can't point to your self cause everything is projected outside of you, but instead you get this insane insights into what being really is , i understand that the brain and physical world is extremely believeable and makes sense if that is the case,  but in those moments you know that you are the real and one and only GOD, it is to insane to be true but god damn it is ? cause you can morph and create whatever you imagine, then if you would cut open a skull you might see a kangaroo inside there instead ? physical reality is something imagined and created and you still want this reality cause it is perfect reality in that way , it is solid and slow, hence why it feels so real and solid and appearances and feelings and stuff does not change so rapidly, there is no reality outside of you. How is anything even possible? How is experience possible? And why would a substance /meditation/yoga and near death experience produce such radical insight that you are GOD and you know who you really are without even asking? Like waking up from your dream, the higher you go in "conciousness" the more formless it becomes and can manifest instantly, it is like a fractal, levels upon levels, physical is conciousness crystalized somehow

[Nahm]

30 minutes ago, Moksha said:

In an infinite reality, every possibility, however remote, is eventualized.
 

That’s an assumed concept, it is not direct experience. 

30 minutes ago, Moksha said:

The universe is not infinite, but considering its vastness, it is statistically impossible that this planet and our species would not exist. Especially when you calculate at the level of the multiverse.

Also concept and not actual. 

30 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Everything we observe is perception and thought. What else could it be?
 

Me. 

30 minutes ago, Moksha said:

The question is whether consciousness is a byproduct of the brain, or whether consciousness exists beyond the brain. Since nobody has reliably proven consciousness outside of the brain, I am unwilling to accept it as fact.

There is not really any “consciousness” . That is you.

30 minutes ago, Moksha said:

 

I have experienced it myself, but even so I cannot rule out the subjectivity of my own experience.

Experienced what? 

[Adamq8]

@Moksha but when the time comes when im lying on my death bed and it just end with sleep forever im fine with that cause then you won't be able to know anything anyways, but after a while on this path it just feels like a good thing to be scared about to be grounded to this reality and believe in the story, but when you shift consciousness it becomes clear that everything is a story and a " game" but it remains to be seen in the end

[Adamq8]

@Moksha but i get the feeling that you have not had alot of mystical experiences perhaps? Cause it can also solve the doubts and paradigm shifts aswell, we are on the path together and it is good to share ideas,  but direct experience is KING 

[Moksha]

@Nahm I was responding to your request that I "Consider the odds of this moment as it is in eternity". Doing so makes it less likely that there is a supernatural explanation for the universe. You can argue that statistics is an "assumed concept", but so is everything else.

On such existential questions, there is no such thing as "direct experience". There is only subjective experience, through the filter of our own mind. I have experienced isness as awareness, and it certainly feels direct and infinite and beautiful, but I can't rule out that it is a product of my subconscious mind.

@Adamq8 I agree with you, and yes, I have had many meaningful spiritual experiences. Our fate after death remains to be seen, and more importantly, it doesn't matter. What actually matters is what the spiritual masters have taught. They don't speak much about infinity. Instead, they focus on the causes for and end of suffering (emphasis added):

Quote

Once the Lord Buddha was staying at Kosambi in the simsapa forest. Then, picking up a few simsapa leaves with his hand, he asked the monks, "What do you think, monks: Which are more numerous, the few simsapa leaves in my hand or those overhead in the simsapa forest?"

"The leaves in the hand of the Lord Buddha are few in number, lord. Those overhead in the simsapa forest are more numerous."

"In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous (than what I have taught). And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them.

"And what have I taught? 'This is suffering... This is the origination of suffering... This is the cessation of suffering... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of suffering': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Moksha

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

@Carl-Richard We can observe the brain stopping in others. In a limited sense, we can even observe the brain stopping in ourselves. But it is not the entire brain stopping, just the conditioned part.

You can observe the brain stopping, but you cannot observe experience stopping. Experience is constant. You cannot experience not having an experience.

[PopoyeSailor]

27 minutes ago, Moksha said:

@PopoyeSailor Without the five sense organs (which are unavoidably physical), the five senses experienced through those organs are no longer possible. A blind man cannot see.

On out of  body experiences, I referenced that in my recommendation of Return from Tomorrow. I have read quite a few books about this, and that is one of my favorites.

That said, I have yet to find reliable objective evidence for any of these claims. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but then again neither is it evidence.

Thats ok, right now your mindset is resisting it because you haven't found the proper evidences.

For the time being gain as much knowledge as possible. Along with the knowledge, your opinion will also evolve.

In terms of extraordinary evidence you are seeking, try watching the reincarnation research video and research papers that I posted above. May be this will also help:

 

[Moksha]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

You can observe the brain stopping, but you cannot observe experience stopping. Experience is constant. You cannot experience not having an experience.

The question is whether it is possible to experience anything without a brain. Current weather is cloudy on that one.

[Moksha]

 

1 minute ago, PopoyeSailor said:

Thats ok, right now your mindset is resisting it because you haven't found the proper evidences.

To the contrary, I wish it were true. But honesty requires me to admit that wishing doesn't make it so.

If there's anything we understand about human bias, it is that people are attracted to "evidence" that confirms their preexisting biases. The best we can do is to be aware of that bias, and try not to fall prey to it.

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Moksha said:

The question is whether it is possible to experience anything without a brain. Current weather is cloudy on that one.

You are not a body. You are not a brain. These objects arise within experience. Are you experiencing a brain while reading this sentence? No. You're experiencing a sentence. There; you just experienced something without a brain.

[Moksha]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

You are not a body. You are not a brain. These objects arise within experience. Are you experiencing a brain while reading this sentence? No. You're experiencing a sentence. There; you just experienced something without a brain.

My brain is experiencing a sentence that your brain produced. Hello brain!

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, Moksha said:

My brain is experiencing a sentence that your brain produced. Hello brain!

That is a redundant sentence. You are experiencing a sentence that I produced. Even that is redundant, because I am you and you are me. Experience is experiencing a sentence. That too is redundant, because experiencing IS experience. Experience is. But then again, that is only a description of experience, not experience itself.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[PopoyeSailor]

30 minutes ago, Moksha said:

To the contrary, I wish it were true. But honesty requires me to admit that wishing doesn't make it so.

If there's anything we understand about human bias, it is that people are attracted to "evidence" that confirms their preexisting biases. The best we can do is to be aware of that bias, and try not to fall prey to it.

Dear @Moksha ,

Isn't it a biased thinking too to think that "any evidence that anybody provides is a biased evidence". I know you don't think that way. But, that is exactly what you are doing even without knowing you are doing it.

Instead of researching through the sources provided, if you keep on arguing about it, how are you going to get a new understanding? 

Take one topic, say Reincarnation, keep watching every documentary video you can find on youtube about it. Also go through the research papers and sources I have referred to. Don't skip or rush it. Research on it properly without any preconceived notions on it. Come back after you have done this rigorously for a week atleast and we can see whether you can confidently tell me that you still believe there is no phenomenon that happens after death.

Edited October 5, 2020 by PopoyeSailor

[Moksha]

@Carl-Richard Redundancy implies reality. As we've been discussing in the thread, reality is in the eye of the beholder. You view it as redundancy, based on a perspective which may be true, but is not objectively proven to be so.

@PopoyeSailor We are all unavoidably biased. We can only do our best not to be, but even then we are still biased. Even objectivity as a universal standard is a form of bias.

I have spent many years reviewing "proofs" of the supernatural, only to realize that there aren't reliable proofs. My standard for proof requires objective, replicable research demonstrating that a particular hypothesis is probably true (i.e., >95% likelihood that the result is not due to chance). Even then, it is not absolute proof, but at least it is something. People claim absolute proof for every belief system (Christianity, Hinduism, Paranormal Activity, etc. etc. etc.), but if such proof really existed, why doesn't everyone accept it? Is it because we're all biased, or because the proof is tenuous to begin with?

For a good pointer, I recommend The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Moksha

[Chris365]

@Moksha I thought everyone got the memo, objectivity is an illusion, doesn't exist. Only subjectivity. Noone ever experienced something objective, only subjective.

3 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Even objectivity as a universal standard is a form of bias.

Standard in an... objective universe? The one that nobody can ever experience. Everything that exists is Consciousness, which is no thing

5 minutes ago, Moksha said:

I have spent many years reviewing "proofs" of the supernatural, only to realize that there aren't reliable proofs. My standard for proof requires objective, replicable research demonstrating that a particular hypothesis is probably true (i.e., >95% likelihood that the result is not due to chance).

From the point of view of your belief in an objective, real universe and reality, this makes sense.

In my subjective () perspective, since all that exists is Consciousness, and all that exists is YOU, any supernatural phenomena must by definition also be YOU. So how supernatural can YOU be? Perceiving so-called supernatural phenomena only depends on the level of consciousness, if you're not aware that what you're perceiving is YOU, you might be convinced (maybe even by direct experience) of angels, ghosts, reincarnation etc. But these are just stories you (lower case 'you', the one that believes it's limited and separate) makes up about what you perceive, according to Consciousness level.

 

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

 I was responding to your request that I "Consider the odds of this moment as it is in eternity". Doing so makes it less likely that there is a supernatural explanation for the universe. You can argue that statistics is an "assumed concept", but so is everything else.

I agree. All concepts are conceptual. 

Quote

On such existential questions, there is no such thing as "direct experience". There is only subjective experience, through the filter of our own mind.

Direct experience rules out what is not direct experience, what is only conceptualized. That’s all. ? 

Quote

I have experienced isness as awareness, and it certainly feels direct and infinite and beautiful, but I can't rule out that it is a product of my subconscious mind.

Well, you can if you abide only by direct experience.