Nak Khid

Is Meditation for weak minds?

36 posts in this topic

boAqznOR_o.png

"Well... people's notion of life-transforming is of course highly subjective.
Those who are well-suited to it will get a lot more juice out of it. Exponentially more. Like 100x more. So that can explain that.
Personally I'm not well-suited to it. My mind is hyper creative non-stop.Meditation is best for people with weak minds "
--Leo Gura

source of quote page 2> 

What if we've all been had to some extent?  What if meditation is largely the emperor's new clothes?  Are we pretending it leads to insights but it is basically zoning out on nothingness, getting high but with no content. Is it hype to get people to follow other people and sell classes where the teacher speaks for 10 minutes and then people sit for 30 minutes doing absolute nothing, virtually no supplies necessary but for some cushions?
Is the wisdom intellectually constructed after the mediation is over ?

^ He's a philosopher too.  You can see the problem here. You spend time reading books and processioning ideas and
then it is suggested the wisdom comes from sitting around, wasting an hour of time sitting and doing nothing.

And after you do this you dont wind up with much  that is useful wisdom that is any different from what other people have said for hundreds of years.
It's not creative and is not supposed to be. Creativity is about imagining things, building castles of ideas in the mind while meditation is about emptying your mind of imagination and thoughts in general. You can be mindful of thoughts but you just note them dismissively as distractions.  You are trying to not be reactive to them and not engage in trying to mentally solving problems or come up with new ideas.  

You could be spending an hour to write down ideas, integrating other ideas with your 
own perspective and maybe coming up with something new or a new perspective,
instead you're supposed to sit there and do nothing and pretend it's something.
Sure 20 minutes can be stress relief but is it really anything more?
And if you force yourself to do it routinely sometimes it's even painful and boring,
not always tranquil. 

What if Beethoven or Einstein had gotten into meditation? 
Would they have zoned out and emptied their mind
and not have  given us what they gave us? 

 

Edited by Nak Khid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am currently a believer in science as well as mysticism. In my opinion, by sitting still for long periods of time, we are disabling what we call as a conscious mind and bringing the buried truth deep inside our mind. ( We can see lot of deep hidden emotions bursting up during meditation, this is a proof of that ). Or somehow, we are disabling the part of mind responsible for perception, and thus feeling everything without boundaries.

So, naturally, this is how we were, without any boundaries, but nature has felt that it is not helpful for our purpose ( and still that purpose thing is debatable, many say life is an endless cycle, from form to formless, I say it is a well defined process moving towards a goal ), that's why we have developed a brain and an identity that helps us to function individually as well as collaborate together whichever is more effective to achieve that hidden purpose that nature deperately want to achieve. Think of it as a single large organism and we are an organ in it doing a process necessary for the sustainence of that organism forever. 

All these are theories, and I can say facts only if I experience it, which I haven't done yet. Even if I experience the higher level of perception, I cannot answer all questions, because I am limited and it's good for me not to know everything, atleast for now, atleast for my individual's survival. ( Imagine what will happen if a cell in your body knows it is just working so hard not only for its survival but also for the survival of whole body, all cells might stop working because of their ego and thus the whole body stops working, imagine the body comes up with an idea, gives the cell a perception it feels happy and everything seems to be itself and gives ultimate happiness to it, it imagines that it has discovered everything, becomes ecstatic and goes back to do its work ). But all these are just theories, once again a reminder.

Edited by An young being

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meditation is the art of doing nothing. It's not zoning out into a dull state of awareness with no content. Meditation can be full of content if you do it properly. I'm not talking about random thoughts and restless monkey-mind. I'm talking about the present moment itself whatever it contains. Sounds, feelings, perceptions, emotions or even thoughts. Watching all these without getting attached to them is the key. And then, finding the one who's watching. Well, it's not so boring, is it?

Edited by nistake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, An young being said:

I am currently a believer in science as well as mysticism. In my opinion, by sitting still for long periods of time, we are disabling what we call as a conscious mind and bringing the buried truth deep inside our mind. ( We can see lot of deep hidden emotions bursting up during meditation, this is a proof of that ).

you are calling buried emotions buried truth.  That is different from wisdom. That is more repressed memories, personal psychology more than mysticism 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, nistake said:

Meditation is the art of doing nothing. It's not zoning out into a dull state of awareness with no content. Meditation can be full of content if you do it properly. I'm not talking about random thoughts and restless monkey-mind. I'm talking about the present moment itself whatever it contains. Sounds, feelings, perceptions, emotions or even thoughts. Watching all these without getting attached to them is the key. And then, finding the one who's watching. Well, it's not so boring, is it?

Quote

Watching all these without getting attached to them is the key.

The key to what?  Being emotionally tough? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

you are calling buried emotions buried truth.  That is different from wisdom. That is more repressed memories, personal psychology more than mysticism 

I believe in mysticism ( not blindly ) because science is not developed fully yet, but what I have explained , of course, is a scientific theory.

Edited by An young being

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Nak Khid No. That's the key to meditation itself. That's basically the whole process. You need to be able to appreciate the present moment and allow everything to be as it is. If you feel like this is a waste of time and you could spend your time on more useful things, then you shouldn't force it. If you meditate just because "it's supposed to be good for you", then it won't really work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

The key to what?  Being emotionally tough? 

The key to removing the perception boundary created by your mind. Experiencing and fusing this idea in your day to day life gives you superpowers. You don't have to worry about death, you don't have to worry about reactions to your actions, because now you know that everything is one and nothing ( or whatever you call it ) and so you don't have to give a damn shit about any repercussions to your actions. But it may also lead people to go in wrong way, commit crimes and disturb the survival process.

That's why the idea of karma, heaven, hell and all came up, because enlightenment without morality is destruction.  But the combination of both not only increases the chances of survival but also makes nature move faster towards its goal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meditation is not for weak minds as Leo says. In fact, consistently meditating and facing boredom requires enormous emotional labor. Our minds are like heroine addicts, activity and distraction being its drug. I would argue not being able to meditate for long periods of time and remain equanimous is symptomatic of a weak mind, not the other way around.

True power and happiness is being able to do literally nothing at all and be at peace. To someone who is caught by flashy experiences, distractions, society, and the endless amusement the ego craves, this will of course be labeled as weak. What a brilliant defense mechanism by the devil. And perhaps there is some truth from that perspective. However in my personal experience, a mere 1 hour of meditation per day for the last 2.5 years has been just as transformative as psychedelics or any non dual theory Ive picked up from Leo or other teachers. 

Your true nature *is* meditation. Let that one sink in ;) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Nak Khid

What is ‘your’ understanding of the relationship between meditation and the mind, and therefore human and world? How do those relate to each other (if at all)?


MEDITATIONS TOOLS  ActualityOfBeing.com  GUIDANCE SESSIONS

NONDUALITY LOA  My Youtube Channel  THE TRUE NATURE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Leo meant to say that those who don't think much are able to practice mindfulness more easily. This doesn't mean that meditation is for dumb people. Actually meditation helps to get rid of all the mental junk that prevents you from thinking more clearly and can rewire your brain. But it doesn't make you necessarily smarter or wiser.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nak Khid said:

What if we've all been had to some extent?  What if meditation is largely the emperor's new clothes?  

It depends on context and the person. If my goal is to weed my garden, meditation is a waste of time. Meditation is not going to remove the weeds in my garden, even if I meditate on having a weed-free garden. In this context, I’ve just wasted 30min. sitting on a cushion. Yet in another context, meditation could actually be helpful. A person could be so stressed-out and pre-occupied that they can’t weed efficiently. A 30min. meditation may seem like a waste of time, yet it helps this person calm their mind, become fully present and get in the zone. They become an Olympic level weeder and finish must faster, even with the 30min. meditation. And they enjoyed it. 

These are just two contextualizations, we could create hundreds more. 

Some people have minds that are well-suited for meditation. They can sit, become grounded, relax the mind and have deep insights. Other minds are not as well-suited for the “goals” of meditation. For example, during meditation my mind can go into creative lucid dream spaces. All of a sudden the bell rings and I’m like “Wow, did an hour go by already?”. I was told by teachers not to do this and to break this habit. That it’s not what meditation is for. Yet that it was my mind does. It would be like telling me not to dream at night. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Member said:

Leo meant to say that those who don't think much are able to practice mindfulness more easily. This doesn't mean that meditation is for dumb people. Actually meditation helps to get rid of all the mental junk that prevents you from thinking more clearly and can rewire your brain. But it doesn't make you necessarily smarter or wiser.

Yeah, I second this. I belong to this category of 'weak mind'. I don't have much thoughts in my mind, at least when I don't want it. Genetics seems to have a role in deciding what kind of mind you have. Leo has a hyper active creative mind ( which was told by himself and also evident from the various videos he is posting ) and maybe thats why he prefers psychedelics over meditation. Meditation is for weak empty minds, other things are for strong creative minds, but using 'other things' without guidance requires a still stronger mind, to deal with the experience. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to counter the above texts - my mind used to be extremely active. Unbearably active but for whatever reason I kept pushing the 1 hour per day. Very creative but very active. By this definition, I would have a “strong mind.” Yet now there is a noticeable decrease in mind activity both inside and outside of meditation. So by these definitions Ive gone from “strong” to “weak” with even more creativity (meditation has helped on the creative front.) Moreover, Ive actually been able to go deeper on psychedelics because of my meditation practice. 

Label the mind strong or weak all you’d like, meditation has nothing to do with that. Meditation is about the systematic process of rewiring your mind to be more transparent and embodied to the Self, to Truth. It can produce insights but it’s more effective at embodying the insights you’ve already experienced through this slow rewiring process. 

At risk of sounding defensive, I don't like the language of “meditation is for weak minds.” This is such a loaded, egoic statement without nuance or explanation which could very easily deter someone from seriously exploring meditation. Meditation works for some minds better than others. Labeling these minds as weak or strong is just the ego creating unnecessary hierarchy and value judgements. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Consilience said:

Just to counter the above texts - my mind used to be extremely active. Unbearably active but for whatever reason I kept pushing the 1 hour per day. Very creative but very active. By this definition, I would have a “strong mind.” Yet now there is a noticeable decrease in mind activity both inside and outside of meditation. So by these definitions Ive gone from “strong” to “weak” with even more creativity (meditation has helped on the creative front.) Moreover, Ive actually been able to go deeper on psychedelics because of my meditation practice. 

Label the mind strong or weak all you’d like, meditation has nothing to do with that. Meditation is about the systematic process of rewiring your mind to be more transparent and embodied to the Self, to Truth. It can produce insights but it’s more effective at embodying the insights you’ve already experienced through this slow rewiring process. 

At risk of sounding defensive, I don't like the language of “meditation is for weak minds.” This is such a loaded, egoic statement without nuance or explanation which could very easily deter someone from seriously exploring meditation. Meditation works for some minds better than others. Labeling these minds as weak or strong is just the ego creating unnecessary hierarchy and value judgements. 

I second this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Just to counter the above texts - my mind used to be extremely active. Unbearably active but for whatever reason I kept pushing the 1 hour per day. Very creative but very active. By this definition, I would have a “strong mind.” Yet now there is a noticeable decrease in mind activity both inside and outside of meditation. So by these definitions Ive gone from “strong” to “weak” with even more creativity (meditation has helped on the creative front.) Moreover, Ive actually been able to go deeper on psychedelics because of my meditation practice. 

Label the mind strong or weak all you’d like, meditation has nothing to do with that. Meditation is about the systematic process of rewiring your mind to be more transparent and embodied to the Self, to Truth. It can produce insights but it’s more effective at embodying the insights you’ve already experienced through this slow rewiring process. 

At risk of sounding defensive, I don't like the language of “meditation is for weak minds.” This is such a loaded, egoic statement without nuance or explanation which could very easily deter someone from seriously exploring meditation. Meditation works for some minds better than others. Labeling these minds as weak or strong is just the ego creating unnecessary hierarchy and value judgements. 

I too second this too. 

Meditation is for all the minds, only that 'weak minds' MAY take less time than 'strong minds' in controlling the thoughts, but the benefits seem to vary depending on what the person is after and what perspective of life he was having before meditating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Consilience @Serotoninluv Great responses!

 

@Nak Khid

My experience is just the opposite. The amount of focus and clarity I have compared to before I started meditating is immense. I used to be so confused and overwhelmed, it just felt like I was chasing my own tail all day, even though I was “doing stuff” all the time.

It’s not a matter of how much time you have in a day, it’s a matter of your intent, clarity and presence. I have so much more focus to write, contemplate and come up with ideas that I actually feel like the days have doubled in length. Meditation also gave me new perspectives and made me hyper creative.

But it’s not a “relief” for me, it’s quite the opposite of “zoning out”. Meditation is precisely the time of the day when I’m not zoning out.

Also Beethoven’s music didn’t come from thinking about it. Playing an instrument is actually one of the best ways to practice focusing/ meditation^_^

Are you meditating much? What’s your experience?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Label the mind strong or weak all you’d like, meditation has nothing to do with that. Meditation is about the systematic process of rewiring your mind to be more transparent and embodied to the Self, to Truth. It can produce insights but it’s more effective at embodying the insights you’ve already experienced through this slow rewiring process. 

At risk of sounding defensive, I don't like the language of “meditation is for weak minds.” This is such a loaded, egoic statement without nuance or explanation which could very easily deter someone from seriously exploring meditation. Meditation works for some minds better than others. Labeling these minds as weak or strong is just the ego creating unnecessary hierarchy and value judgements. 

I also don’t like the terms “weak” or “strong” mind. I’d prefer something like “active mind” or and “engaged mind”. I’ve also received some of the rewiring benefits you spoke of, such as being able to quiet the mind (relatively) and pay better attention to what is happening now. Yet from my observations, some minds seem to naturally resonate with this better. Like learning how to hit a baseball. When I was a kid, I sucked at it. I was a good outfielder, yet I sucked at batting and struck out a lot. With practice, I went from total suckage to so-so suckage. Yet most of the other boys picked it up much faster than I did. They were just good at it. For me, I learned how to dribble a soccer ball much better. It was natural for me. 

As well, I think it also depends on the “goal”. If the goal of meditation is to quiet the mind and gain insights, I suck at it. Yet if the goal of mediation is to gain insights through creative lucid spaces, I’m super good at it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get what he is saying there. There seem to be two kinds of non-doership, (absence of ego). There channeling/ deep flow states, which appear to be active, but so absorbing there's no one doing them, no suffering, no effort. Then there is literal (from the outward looking in) not doing anything, like sitting in meditation.

Flow states might be the path of least resistance for active minds, at least for a time. I've had a lot of growth by running for most of my life. My mind goes into a creative flow state really easily while running and new ideas and insights flow in. There are also gaps in between these that I don't notice. The gaps allow space for the new/creative.

Active and passive is a duality, of course, so that difference is essentially false. 

Sitting mediation is an INTENSE badass practice under the guise of... sitting and doing nothing. It's so easy to do nothing, it's effortless so we make it hard. It's not what it looks like. 

Edited by mandyjw

My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
 
 
 
 
?
4
14 minutes ago, flume said:

@Consilience @Serotoninluv Great responses!

 

@Nak Khid

My experience is just the opposite. The amount of focus and clarity I have compared to before I started meditating is immense. I used to be so confused and overwhelmed, it just felt like I was chasing my own tail all day, even though I was “doing stuff” all the time.

It’s not a matter of how much time you have in a day, it’s a matter of your intent, clarity and presence. I have so much more focus to write, contemplate and come up with ideas that I actually feel like the days have doubled in length. Meditation also gave me new perspectives and made me hyper creative.

But it’s not a “relief” for me, it’s quite the opposite of “zoning out”. Meditation is precisely the time of the day when I’m not zoning out.

Also Beethoven’s music didn’t come from thinking about it. Playing an instrument is actually one of the best ways to practice focusing/ meditation^_^

Are you meditating much? What’s your experience?

Right, meditation has an uncountable number of benefits, which improve and stay longer and seems to depend both on our practice time and dedication. When it comes to music, the mind works better when we are in the flow state, something similar to meditation but not the same. ( although we can be mindful while playing music ).

There are so many different kinds of meditation.From @Nak Khid's words, he seems to point out to the ultimate fruit of meditation, the enlightenment process, questioning whether it is really necessary to spend years pursuing the same, instead of doing something 'useful'. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now