Romantic Love is a LIE

[IJB063]

This is probably going to be a long thread, I think I've become disillusioned to the idea of romantic love, and I'd would like to have some outside perspective. I've been thinking about this topic for a while, my thoughts are pretty jumbled on the topic, so I hope as I start writing this post I can make clear my thought process on this subject. So to begin here's a video from the school of life on Arthur Schopenhauer, this video predominantly covers Schopenhauer's views on what we refer to as "love".

Thanks to anyone who takes the time to read

“I was gripped by the misery of life as Buddha was in his youth when he saw sickness, old age, pain and death. The truth … was that this world could not have been the work of an all-loving Being, but rather that of a devil, who had brought creatures into existence in order to delight in the sight of their sufferings.” - Arthur Schopenhauer

So why am I starting with this quote, not only because its the first quote in the video, but because it ties into this next one.

"There is only one inborn error, and that is the notion that we exist in order to be happy... So long as we persist in this inborn error... the world seems to us full of contradictions. For at every step, in things great and small, we are bound to experience that the world and life are certainly not arranged for the purpose of maintaining a happy existence... hence the countenances of almost all elderly persons wear the expression of what is called disappointment."  - Arthur Schopenhauer

In the Western World we have an obsession with the pursuit of happiness, we are a collection of self-indulgent, individualistic societies where everything is about happiness, and specifically your happiness and that you're special. We hold this collective and childlike notion of unconditional and romantic love, that somehow, someone will love us for who we are, despite our faults and that this person will look into our soul and see the true version of who we are and love us for it and love us without condition, without hesitation.

This (I believe) is bullshit, what in any way, by observing reality, would lead you to believe this, besides, I don't know, maybe a Disney movie. All love is fundamentally conditional, why? Because we are animals, as covered in the video, we are governed by what Schopenhauer refers to as the "Will to Life", but takes many different names, the Darwinian process or if you believe that god created man and the animals, god has clearly imparted us with a nature, so its gods imparted nature. It makes no difference what you call it, we are controlled by meta physical forces outside of our direct control, nature, gods will, the universe, Darwinism, blah, blah, blah... The name its given doesn't matter, what matters is what is.

When does one to stop to think why one does what one does, or why one is even reading this post. The answer is, you don't, for the most part throughout our lives we are blind to why we do what we do. The only real brief lapses in this are meditation and consciousness work e.g. psychedelic experiences. In the becoming of a sage as mentioned in the video. These are seemingly the only time we get a pause from what is our continual striving to fulfill our biological imperative. We are slaves to this biological imperative.

This biological imperative is not compassionate, it is not caring, it is not paternal, its brutal and does not care for you, or your happiness. To realize this just look out our fellow animals/mammals, and see how uncaring an uncompassionate they are even to their own offspring, IF the circumstances lead them to believe that there own offspring are a detriment to their reproductive success. How are we to learn our own biological imperative if we don't look at the primitive behaviors and patterns of others imperatives. One such attempt at securing the biological imperative is lion infanticide, which perfectly illustrates the brutality for which we as creatures, strive to pass on our genes, and remember we're under the exact same fundamental pressures by nature, a nature which by its nature does not care for ethics.

https://africageographic.com/blog/understanding-lion-infanticide/

As mentioned in the blog, when a new coalition of males takes over a pride, in doing so killing the alpha male lion, they almost always kill the prides’ cubs, since they are not biologically related and do not want to spend energy ensuring that the other lions’ (now killed) genes will be passed on. In addition, female lions will not be receptive to mating while they are nursing, so killing the cubs enables the male lions to procreate. After the females cubs are killed the female shows heightened sexual activity, being more active in initiating copulations and seeking a greater number of mating partners as to increase the likelihood of her reproductive success (practically getting aroused by the fact that the new male lions killed her cubs). If the male or female was to develop a conscience for infanticide, what would be the likelihood of their reproductive success, it would be drastically diminished. Why, because a moral conscience is maladaptive to a lions biological imperative, so a lion is conditioned by nature to not care for ethics. As in many ways we are also, not conditioned to care for ethics, especially not to be actually cable or even care for abstract notions of unconditional love.

The idea of unconditional love is a helpful tool, a generally new tool, an irrational tool, but one which in many ways compels us to keep the human race going.

“Why all this noise and fuss about love? Why all the urgency, uproar, anguish and exertion?” he asked. “Because the ultimate aim of all love-affairs… is actually more important than all other aims in anyone’s life; and therefore it is quite worthy of the profound seriousness with which everyone pursues it.”

The romantic dominates life because “what is decided by it is nothing less than the composition of the next generation…the existence and special constitution of the human race in times to come.”

Most people have this idea of romantic love, because it serves as an unconscious ego defense mechanism, why does it defend the ego. Because it makes us feel special, and it makes you feel that your impulses and biological imperative matters. But it doesn't matter, neither does the person you "love".  We'd much rather believe all this bullshit about love than the reality. The bullshit is just more palatable for people to buy than to accept the reality, that their lives aren't special, that you're not special, you're not going to find you're soul mate, there is no such thing as a "soul mate" to begin with. The reality is this - probably, in all incredible high Vegas odds, nothing of any significance will ever happen in your entire boring life. This reminded be of a post I just read on the forum, which in part sparked this post.

https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/45296-why-are-you-guaranteed-to-get-one-girl-to-sleep-with-you-eventually/

Why is it likely that you'll eventually get a girl to spread her legs for you, because its our nature, its biology, its why we even fucking have instinct and inclinations to do anything in the first place. They all exist to get you to the point that you "spread your seed" and "leave a legacy". But why even bother, especially if there's no such thing as romantic or unconditional love, and all your doing is what dozens of billions of people have done before you. The truth is this if you care about "leaving a legacy" and having a family, eventually, yeah a girl will be nice to you, and for some reason she'll like you, you'll fall in love, she'll probably break your heart, later on in life you'll settle for less, find a new girl, she's not so much of a looker, not high on the personality scale but she's stable. You can start a family with her and you'll push out rotten kids and you'll get some awful job and you'll give up your dreams and sit in a cubicle for this family, but for what really. Have you done anything special, pursued anything special or transcendent, do you think your going to be the exception to this rule, find the perfect magical wife who actually cares about you more than lets say her car, or have a kid who grows up to cure cancer or become the next Nikola Tesla, your not, your just like every one else. Romantic love is nothing more than a narcissistic fantasy that we delude ourselves into believing, if its not please tell me why not, I'd genuinely like to know. I like my narcissistic fantasies intact. So I'm going to end this post with another video and some quotes

 

Now give me one example of anyone who meets those four standards

The quotes :

"As rain pours through poorly thatched roofs, so does desire overwhelm the undeveloped mind." - The Buddha

"I have yet to meet a man who is as fond of virtue as he is of women." - Confucius

"The difference between the worldly and the saintly … depends solely on the elimination or not of sexual desire." - Buddha

Thanks for reading

Godspeed & Godbless

[Roy]

It may very well be logically true that love and romance are just survival mechanisms, and that all relationships are transactional when reduced down to their core. However none of that really matters because - 

The map is not the territory.

Love is actual and all the anthropological, psychological, and relationship sciences and concepts are just that, science and concepts.

Love is transcendent. It's beyond reason. It's illogical. That is fine.

You wonder how humanity has slowly gone from tribes slaughtering each other indiscriminately to a globe spanning interconnected society? You may say it's because we've learned that needlessly killing each other is economically unproductive and simply illogical, true. You may also say that we've evolved our governments and systems of law to be more fair, true.

What's really true if you look hard enough is that we've expanded our capacity to love. As time goes on our circle of love increases and includes more and more people and beings. Starting with ourselves, to our immediate partners, to our neighbors, to our community, to our culture, to our country, to other cultures and countries, to humanity, to the planet. If you're wondering yes the ego does plays a role in this because it's so pervasive. However it is transcended and evaporated, because it becomes impossible to maintain itself under the weight of love.

What I'm saying here is really advanced and profound and you'll probably have lots of resistance and thoughts running through your head like, "Wtf is this hippy talking about."

All I'm going to suggest of you, is consider letting go our your need for maps and explanations and go experience.

Do that and soon enough your confusion will subside.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Roy

[IJB063]

@Roy Ha, that was a preemptive first strike with

52 minutes ago, Roy said:

"Wtf is this hippy talking about."

That cracked me up, you did get me, in seriousness though I do love hippies

Anyway I do understand the concept that as a society or the species advances so does our love and compassion for all peoples regardless of circumstance, as you listed neighbors, community, country, ethnicity, sexual orientation etc...

Funny enough Schopenhauer does have a quote along the lines of

"Compassion is the basis of morality" 

So in so far as a society is compassionate it is advanced and does not discriminate in that compassion

But I do believe there is a difference between compassion and love

Especially romantic love

The love that you speak about is not romantic love, at least as how we define romantic love in contemporary society.

I do think there a lot of truth to

59 minutes ago, Roy said:

The map is not the territory.

Love is actual and all the anthropological, psychological, and relationship sciences and concepts are just that, science and concepts.

Love is transcendent. It's beyond reason. It's illogical. That is fine.

Love is experiential, but so is cocaine or heroin, the high is whats important, not the method

And romanticism can be applied to both love as with drugs (Love practically being a drug)

So again there is nothing inherently special to romantic love

I find it very funny that you said

1 hour ago, Roy said:

The map is not the territory.

Because that is the exact same thing that was said to me in a previous post I made a few days ago on boredom

"Maps and readings/study are actually pretty important. Without teachings we are more lost that not. But, not completely because awakening is our birthright and intrinsic."

At first I was like, why this guy talking about maps but know I get the analogy 

So I'm recognizing a pattern

Anyway Cheers 

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, IJB063 said:

This (I believe) is bullshit, what in any way, by observing reality, would lead you to believe this, besides, I don't know, maybe a Disney movie. All love is fundamentally conditional, why? Because we are animals, as covered in the video, we are governed by what Schopenhauer refers to as the "Will to Life", but takes many different names, the Darwinian process or if you believe that god created man and the animals, god has clearly imparted us with a nature, so its gods imparted nature. It makes no difference what you call it, we are controlled by meta physical forces outside of our direct control, nature, gods will, the universe, Darwinism, blah, blah, blah... The name its given doesn't matter, what matters is what is.

You acknowledged it’s your belief....but then wrote it off without continued inspection at the end there.  

1 hour ago, IJB063 said:

This biological imperative is not compassionate, it is not caring, it is not paternal, its brutal and does not care for you, or your happiness. To realize this just look out our fellow animals/mammals, and see how uncaring an uncompassionate they are even to their own offspring, IF the circumstances lead them to believe that there own offspring are a detriment to their reproductive success. How are we to learn our own biological imperative if we don't look at the primitive behaviors and patterns of others imperatives. One such attempt at securing the biological imperative is lion infanticide, which perfectly illustrates the brutality for which we as creatures, strive to pass on our genes, and remember we're under the exact same fundamental pressures by nature, a nature which by its nature does not care for ethics.

You are aware of  “the biological imperative”, as you call it. Therefore, you are the awareness. You are not a lion either, so stop pretending to be or think like one. The human is unique in a much bigger meta picture than you realize (see prior note about continuing the inspection). Also, you’re speaking of having offspring, which you do not. Speaking from non-direct experience is delusion, no offense - I trust that’s relieving if taken in honesty. 

1 hour ago, IJB063 said:

The idea of unconditional love is a helpful tool, a generally new tool, an irrational tool, but one which in many ways compels us to keep the human race going.

Your idea of unconditional love is not actual unconditional love, but is literally made of unconditional love. To realize this, you’d have to stop taking that you have an idea - for granted. (And maybe begin to inspect taking that there is a you for granted)

1 hour ago, IJB063 said:

Romantic love is nothing more than a narcissistic fantasy that we delude ourselves into believing, if its not please tell me why not, I'd genuinely like to know.

You’re making this too easy!

1 hour ago, IJB063 said:

I like my narcissistic fantasies intact.

That is “why not”. It’s your belief. Are you thinking someone else could realize the Truth...and somehow you would? Keep inspecting. Don’t settle for your own write offs.

To go deeper...notice the arising thought....the reactional thought (conditional thinking)....and before speaking it, before typing it....notice if it feels good or not good...to you. If it doesn’t, consider...do you think it’s going to feel good to anyone else? No.  But.....why’s that ? ? Notice, what is being spoken of here....is your Unconditioning. 

Everything you typed IS your conditions.

Do you see it?

Great post! ??

[IJB063]

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

You acknowledged it’s your belief....but then wrote it off without continued inspection at the end there.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think your asking me to inspect the metaphysical of reality, I am trying to do that in so far as I can, it is my belief that romantic love is a lie, I do see how I've wrote this off, why, because I can't explain our complete nature, its tough to do and I don't know anyone which has done it.

5 minutes ago, Nahm said:

You are aware of  “the biological imperative”, as you call it. Therefore, you are the awareness. You are not a lion either, so stop pretending to be or think like one. The human is unique in a much bigger meta picture than you realize (see prior note about continuing the inspection). Also, you’re speaking of having offspring, which you do not. Speaking from non-direct experience is delusion, no offense - I trust that’s relieving if taken in honesty. 

I am aware that we have a biological imperative, you can call it what ever you want, you could even call it "awareness". I only used the lion to illustrate a point, I could of used the fact that a female praying mantis literally rips the fucking head of their mates when having sex. I actual believe though that the human is unique, uniquely shit, Schopenhauer talks in great depth about this, even in the video we're compared to moles, animals seem to be much more content with mere existence than we are, they have no concept of the future or the past therefore they have no concept of death, animals are in many way in an enviable condition. I know of no lions to create concentration camps and in mass genocide hippos, though I may be wrong, I haven't directly experienced it. Also I can talk about having children although myself have not having children, if not speaking from direct experience is delusion than we're all fucking delusion, the earths flat there is no such thing as science and no countries exist since I haven't been there. Also no offence taken

15 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Your idea of unconditional love is not actual unconditional love, but it literally made of unconditional love. To realize this, you’d have to stop taking that you have an idea - for granted. 

Yeah I agree, what I'm talking about isn't unconditional love, but its what our culture venerates as unconditional love, that is what I'm attacking

16 minutes ago, Nahm said:

That is “why not”. It’s your belief. Are you thinking someone else could realize the Truth...and somehow you would? Keep inspecting. Don’t settle for your own write offs

I was joking about the narcissistic fantasies, although they do say ignorance is bliss, but they also do say that the truth will set you free, I will keep inspecting, and I get that I'm the only person who can realize the truth, because I only have my frame of reference, remember that applies to you to

[IJB063]

8 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

I hope you find true love one day so you can prove me wrong, good luck. 

Thanks a lot @Keyhole I appreciate that, and I agree with everything you said

 

9 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

And hilarious.

As Voltaire said

"Gods a comedian playing to an audience to afraid to laugh"

[IJB063]

@Keyhole Hope you find someone as well

11 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

We are unworthy to even be attempting to reenact the divine on one another

I agree but its worth a shot, but really all it ends up being is pissing in the wind

[Nahm]

@IJB063

1 hour ago, IJB063 said:

remember that applies to you to

Scrutinize direct experience. Godspeed ??

[IJB063]

@Anubis "an expression of good wishes to a person starting a journey."

Have you heard of google, its cool

[Preety_India]

 

The relationship that I had last was like pure romantic love. I had been in love before but it never felt this way. It felt too strong, the craving was of a different kind. I couldn't live without. It was fantasy coming to life. It was all I wanted and to be in it was my goal!!! 

Fast forward a few months and I lost it. I still loved but the honeymoon phase was over, the fighting phase began, we started fighting like kids, over petty things. I felt guilty, he felt guilty. I reached my break point and I gave up. I caved in and broke up. My heart shattered like pieces of shard. The love was strong, the pain of heartache stronger. 

From my experience of love and pain, I can say this much that true unconditional romantic wonderful love is totally possible. It comes like a  star, it's goes with the wind. 

If I have to pick one experience in my life as the most beautiful and profound I will say it was falling in love truly deeply and madly. 

It's not a narcissistic fantasy. It is not preoccupied with the fulfillment of the Self. In fact it's the furthest from self love or narcissism. Unconditional pure romantic love is an act of selflessness, an act of the highest virtue, an adventure that is unforgettable, a feeling undeniable. 

If I have to describe how true love feels like I will use Shakespeare's words 

Love is wisdom of the fool and folly of the wise. 

(not sure if Shakespeare said this though) 

I will call "falling in love" one of the greatest experiences of life, without which life is really just a bunch of colors on the canvas. But love is a beautiful mystery, a mystic fountain of Bliss and eternity. It's like madness but in a good way, like an elixir that you should taste at least once in your lifetime to give meaning to life.. 

But there is a problem. As is the case with anything else in life, love does not come without its fair share of struggles and disappointment. If you found love and never lost it, you are really the lucky master. If you found it and lost it, you're lucky enough to have found it at least, be glad for that. 

The reality of love is that we are not fully equipped for it. To love someone unconditionally is the most selfless act of charity and kindness. However human nature is a bit selfish.. And selfishness creeps in like a demon into a loving relationship and lovers drift apart. Love itself is not to be demonized, it's pure as water, white as snow. It's we the vehicle of love that fall short of its enormous expectations and struggles. Our compassion falls short, our weaknesses begin to seep in.. Blaming love would be like Fox and the Grapes. 

The blame should lie not on the shoulders of Love but on human nature that cannot sustain the divinity of love. 

When you try to measure the benefits of unconditional love, that's being a narcissist because they look for situational gains.. A true lover  does not see what he can gain out of love.. But it is more about loving the other person than wanting their love to reach you. Of course there are expectations but real love does not seek expectations at least in the beginning. So you can't be asking for better grades for your children or better success rate because that's calculative. True love doesn't see outcome or maximum output. It goes on loving even when there is no gain. That's unconditional love. 

True love is like a godly thing. It's a glimpse into sainthood. The kind of love a mother has for her child. True love is deep and strong and doesn't come with conditions. It's a different experience . Your heart expands and you feel a sense of intense joy and peace and seek fulfillment in that person being happy. 

Now your remark on nature is a bit cherry picked. Because nature is both mysterious and diabolical. There are examples of animals like dogs who have died for their masters. That is also nature. You're only looking at the brutality of nature because that will easily suit your narrative. Do you know that Sam Harris once gave the example of ducks in a discussion about rape. And how rape was a observed in nature. The thing is one cannot justify actions by citing nature. Since there are examples of true unconditional love in nature as  well unconditional love is not visible like murder. It cannot be displayed as an act other than in sacrifice. But there are tons of examples where pets give us unconditional love despite not feeding the pet or in a situation of distress the pet gives priority to the owner than it's own life. What would you say of that? 

Have you had it the other way round, where a human gave up his /her life for a pet? I highly doubt it but maybe rarely. Most cases are of animal cruelties and abandonment. This shows human nature and not animal nature. So be careful while citing examples of animals because some animals have shown greater humanity than humans. 

True unconditional love romantic or not romantic is extremely challenging to sustain. First of all, to even have such a love already feels heavy enough and then to carry it becomes very difficult because the more Empathy you become the more likely you are to attract a Narcissist. 

If you start loving people in the most selfless ways, people will brutally crush you and take advantage of you, that's why it's kinda anti-survival. But it's Heroism. Just because people are ruthless, one should not stop loving because only love can heal eventually. 

You in your post make unconditional romantic love look like a transaction which it is NOT. It's the furthest from that. If you really loved your child, you would have no problem sitting in that cubicle for hours and hours for your family. Because that's what people with unconditional love do. They struggle not only for themselves but also for those who they care about. It's a sacrificial love. There are no GAINS in unconditional love, in fact you might experience more loss than gain. But that's what it is. It's never meant to be a gainful transaction. It's about GIVING not SEEKING. That's why it hurts especially when you don't receive as much as you give. 

A mother who gives unconditional love to her child grieves when her child grows up and neglects her or abuses her because this is the same child she raised with unconditional love. With such love the pain is great. Because she has to love and forgive the child despite its evil behavior. But if a parent showed transactional love, they will sue the child for damages, take the child to court or get in revenge mode to get what they want. Because they don't care if the child is hurt, as long as it is tit for tat. 

A lot of people equate true love with foolishness. It might appear that way because you have to give up so much in the process that it becomes anti survival. So indeed it's not the wisest form of love. It's not survival smart. But it's divine or spiritual. Because it's selfless and beautiful. 

When you realize that you truly love someone, you wouldn't want anything from them, you wouldn't sit and calculate what your earnings were, that's like carrying a tally book for matching gains versus losses like updating a balance sheet. 

Transactional people always feel that true love is a misery and unfruitful. They look at it as futile, a waste of time, a deflection, a childish notion.. 

It takes an amount of soul searching and maturity to know what it feels like and to stop judging it and realize that it's not meant to fit into our paradigm of survival and living just because it is not perfectly tailored to our demands. It's never meant for our desires or gratification. It's otherwise. Judgement is always easy but to understand it is to accept and embrace it as a an act of difficulty and Heroism. Only strong people can truly love. Most people can't. 

And those who truly love will face ginormous challenges and possibly give up at some point because human weaknesses and flaws will take over. 

Yet even the smallest amount of unconditional love that you showed to some human being or animal is worth an entire lifetime. It's the best thing that came out from an entire period of ruthless rat race to gain, survive, calculate and succeed. 

Best of luck 

 

 

[Derek White]

I agree with you title that romantic love as society tells is false. We should look at how we actually conduct relationships and not what movies tell us. 

I think there is more to humans than survival alone. Granted, most of our relationships are selfish and based on mutual survival. But our relationships are not as survival oriented as animals'. 

Outside of relationships, we are doing things which are counter-intuitive to our survival. In a way spirituality is about being less like animals, less survival oriented and more human, more free. What we are doing here is anti-survival. Just being aware of survival is itself anti-survival and should be a clue that there is something beyond survival. 

As we become less and less survival oriented, the way we relate with the universe and the 'objects', 'people', 'you' and 'I' in it becomes more romantic. It's not what you see on TV. It doesn't even mean that you start treating the other person nicely, that's such a social and psychological thing. True Romantic Love would be when you transcend survival completely. 

[Preety_India]

 

An real life example of enduring unconditional true romantic love 

 

 

[IJB063]

6 hours ago, Vxvxen said:

The title itself indicates you need some love.

I have so much love I don't know what to do with it

6 hours ago, Vxvxen said:

Often times what is really going on is in the head - who the partner is to you in your mind. It has nothing to do with who he/she is.

Yep

6 hours ago, Vxvxen said:

Once the ‘magic’ is gone, the dream ends

Yep, its the drug comedown

6 hours ago, Vxvxen said:

Much love to you

Much love to you to @Vxvxen

[IJB063]

10 hours ago, Derek White said:

I agree with you title that romantic love as society tells is false. We should look at how we actually conduct relationships and not what movies tell us. 

Yep 

10 hours ago, Derek White said:

I think there is more to humans than survival alone. Granted, most of our relationships are selfish and based on mutual survival. But our relationships are not as survival oriented as animals'. 

Unfortunately I disagree, I think its the ego defending is self by obfuscating our nature, human beings only care about survival, domination and procreation, in so far as we excel at those things we are doing well, in so far as we don't we are a failure, and as we fail we will be selected out of the gene pool therefore putting an end to whatever seemed on the surface to be done out of altruism and compassion 

10 hours ago, Derek White said:

Outside of relationships, we are doing things which are counter-intuitive to our survival.

This is my point, counter intuitive to our survival, meaning it isn't good for us if we want to live and pass on our genes or that behavior

10 hours ago, Derek White said:

In a way spirituality is about being less like animals, less survival oriented and more human, more free.

 Agree 100%, spirituality is about transcending our nature in so far as we can do that, this is what separates us from the animals

10 hours ago, Derek White said:

Just being aware of survival is itself anti-survival

Not

10 hours ago, Derek White said:

True Romantic Love would be when you transcend survival completely. 

 No that will be Universal love not romantic love, romantic love is predicated upon you as a being, universal love is love of all things, as mentioned in the Buddhist video, this is why there can't be such a thing as romantic love

Godspeed @Derek White

[SickLuv]

On 01/03/2020 at 6:43 PM, Keyhole said:

I agree, the more I look around me the clearer it becomes.  Romantic love is a lie, but universal love is Truth, so there's no point in focusing on romantic love because it's just another trap.  Love between humans is always transactional, it's never pure.  Humans will never love the way that God loves.  We are unworthy to even be attempting to reenact the divine on one another, it's borderline perverse.  And hilarious.  

I hope you find true love one day so you can prove me wrong, good luck. 

This aswell is belief

For me everything is possible if you create it and want it.

Could be that true true love is just so rare and almost impossible.

 

But if 2 humans discover pure love they could understand the dynamic  and both choose a relative disney.

Disney is a part of absolute love.

So why would that be a 'lie'

There is no lie or truth.

[mandyjw]

If your disbelief in romantic love is less of a rejection and more of an open-mindedness you might be surprised how very right and how very wrong you are simultaneously.  

The ego turns love into something to be embarrassed of, something chemical and not to be taken seriously. Much like people believe that a psychedelic high is a delusional experience rather than one that may bring clarity and an entirely new perspective on life, they draw the same conclusions about romantic love. 

 

[LfcCharlie4]

All you're doing is simply creating beliefs that will block you from ever finding true romantic love. 

You also said 'Spirituality is about transcending' that comment alone shows how much work you need to do, this is a common trap, that people believe they will become enlightened and are suddenly no longer human. That couldn't be further from the case. 

Yes, a lot of romantic love turns ugly and horrible, however, true romantic love is worth fighting for and brings incredible experiences and feelings of joy, otherwise, people wouldn't bother, as relationships do take work, but when with the right person, they are more than worth it. 

It also seems you've come here with your mind made up, no matter what anyone says.

What it seems you really need is to stop theorizing about romantic love and go and experience it for yourself, and also it is clear, you have not had an awakening into universal love, at least not a full one as this thread would not read like it does if you had. 

True Awakening is about becoming more in touch with your emotions than ever before, not becoming an emotionless robot, which it seems you could be on the path to if you aren't careful. 

Also, how old are you out of interest? Some of your replies have been quite childish and immature, and if you haven't had direct experience of Romantic Love, it's like having a theory on how Honey tastes without ever tasting it. 

 @Keyhole, Of course, an awakening to Love as the truth of reality is more fulfilling, but true integration is bringing that awakening and understanding into everyday life, including into all relationships and romantic ones. You can have both, it's not like it's awakening to love, OR having a romantic relationship. In fact, a true awakening to love will only improve your romantic relationship, as you will no longer NEED your partner, but simply be with them because you WANT to. Coming into a relationship, from that vantage point is incredible and allows for the true blossoming of a relationship. 

I know before when me and my GF felt like we NEEDED to be together and were just staying together for the sake of it, it was terrible, compared to now where it is simply because we want to.

Look at the problems in the world, they can be boiled down to a lack of love at their core. 

Wars? Lack of love and realisation that you are merely attempting to fight yourself. 

Obesity? Lack of love for yourself and your own health and body. 

Relationship issues? Lack of love and understanding in your relationship. 

These are merely simplifications to express a point, and issues, of course, run WAY deeper and need correct and nuanced solutions, but the point is that realization of Love shouldn't be the end goal, you are then free to express this love in all area of your life. 

I would be careful not to demonize romantic love and relationships, not only are they amazing and incredible, but a partner can really help expose your own delusions and behaviors. 

[IJB063]

@LfcCharlie4

30 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Also, how old are you out of interest?

Look at my profile it clearly says 147 years old

Not but actually I'm 18

I have been in a relationship for a year when I was 16

Who's to say what "romantic love" feels like though, you only have your own experience to go of 

32 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

It also seems you've come here with your mind made up, no matter what anyone says.

No I don't think so, I just worded the post in a provocative as to get some responses to my question, I'm legitimately curious about the topic 

34 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

What it seems you really need is to stop theorizing about romantic love and go and experience it for yourself, and also it is clear, you have not had an awakening into universal love, at least not a full one as this thread would not read like it does if you had. 

Same logic here applies with the experience of romantic love, I don't know if I have or haven't, I have done ecstasy a few times and that I think would be the closest I've come to "universal love", but I don't really know what that means

35 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

You also said 'Spirituality is about transcending' that comment alone shows how much work you need to do, this is a common trap, that people believe they will become enlightened and are suddenly no longer human. That couldn't be further from the case. 

You misinterpreted my point, I'm not saying that you cease to be human, only that you push past the mundane experience of life, maybe "transcending" the normal experience of life 

37 minutes ago, LfcCharlie4 said:

Yes, a lot of romantic love turns ugly and horrible, however, true romantic love is worth fighting for and brings incredible experiences and feelings of joy, otherwise, people wouldn't bother, as relationships do take work, but when with the right person, they are more than worth it. 

My argument wasn't that there isn't the experience of romantic love or infatuation, only that its just that, an experience that isn't necessarily needed to live a good life, perhaps should be avoided, and that what cultures put forward as romantic love isn't actually a good thing

[LfcCharlie4]

@IJB063 Well no, it's not necessarily needed, it varies from person to person. Ramana Maharshi remained Cellibate his whole life, whereas Rupert Spira and Francis Lucille have wives, it depends on what YOU want on an individual level, if you don't want a romantic relationship then don't have one, but like with most things, it isn't a one size fits all solution. 

If you don't know then you haven't experienced being in love, there would be no doubts there if you had I think, plus 16 is really young for a relationship, I would say don't rule out the potential since you are only 18 mate. 

Isn't that the same for all feelings though? My feeling of depression could be different from yours, as, with anxiety, joy, etc, it's all subjective. 

Love=Consciousness, the problem is no matter how many times you read it, it doesn't matter. I had a great theoretical understanding as a seeker still didn't mean I was at peace or happy. Only by awakening and experientially understanding it, does the true changes in your life happen. 

Yeah, I also had a great experience on MDMA when I was 17 that speared me on to take spirituality way more seriously, but 'Universal' love goes way deeper, Love is literally the fabric of the universe and is the greatest force binding us, yet because we are not in touch with this, look what kind of 'World' we create on an individual and collective level. 

When you become conscious of your own being and abide as that, and awaken to love, you will gradually, naturally deepen your love continuously. There is no end to the depth of love. This doesn't mean you have to go and feed the poor, it can literally be simple things in everyday life, Love will literally pour out of you and want to be expressed. 

I would say Romantic Love done 'right' is an incredible gift to humanity, when 2 beings love each other as themselves and love each other more than life itself it is them merely expressing their true being, it is a beautiful experience. 

Of course, some movies are cheesy, and relationships aren't all fairytales, but they can be truly amazing and a great gift to one's life. Of course, the problems come when you are not fulfilled or do not love yourself, so look for scraps of love in the world and demand love from your partner and for them to make you happy. 

In your case, you're 18 (tbf I'm only 20) I really wouldn't write off romantic love after one GF at 16 mate, turn within and look within with complete freedom, if you had the complete freedom to design your dream life would you picture a Women with you? A family? A life of solitude? 

Everyone is unique and has unique wants and needs on a human level, it's about thinking for yourself and finding out what YOU want, not what philosophers wanted, or what anyone else wants. 

In regards to your comment about Spirituality, I hate to break it to you but you don't 'Transcend' mundane life post-awakening. A true awakening is when The Ordinary, becomes The Extraordinary. Perfection can be found in EVERYTHING, despite it not being 'Perfect' by the conventional sense of the word. You can't transcend past this life, unless you want to leave this body. But, why do you want to transcend past this life? 

I would investigate that, as that searching and seeking for something more can spearhead an incredible journey to realising your own being, and realizing you don't need to transcend anything, THIS right here, right now, is it  

Good luck my friend. 

P.S. I dunno what teachers you follow/ read/ listen to, but in your case, I would recommend teachers such as- Rupert Spira, Francis Lucille, Ramaji& Ananda Devi, and Adyshanti. These are fully self-realized beings, a lot of teachers are of course awake, but haven't 'gone all the way' so to speak.

for now, as the language and cultural differences are hard I would stay away from Ramana and Nisgardatta. Only because if you take them literally, it can leave you more confused than before. 

[LfcCharlie4]

@Keyhole Yeah they CAN be distractions, but post-awakening life is literally meant to be enjoyed and embraced as it is. I know that relationships can be distractions on the path when you're a seeker, I considered this many times. 

If you don't think there's integration, then I'm sorry that's just incorrect, integrating awakenings is key. For example, Integrating 'my' awakening to love, involved a lot of changes in how I relate and my own relationships, as you literally know people are You, and operate simply from a place of love. 

Also, I used age to indicate the other guys' responses, as they were quite childish. Can you please explain what age has to do within my context? 

It's not like there's an age barrier to awakening, or realizing your own being. I am merely talking from direct experience of awakening to love, and the impacts it had and is having in my own life. 

Also, Distractions=The Path, if you can only live this understanding in a cave with no people around you then to me, that is not a complete understanding. True peace and happiness, is being at absolute peace and happiness, no matter the situation.

I was like that for a while, I just wanted to sit in my room in bliss all the time, it is subtle denial of the 'world out there' instead of embracing this world as it truly is, here and now as The Buddha Planet itself. 

I'm also wondering about your own journey and awakenings if you don't mind sharing? 

Lastly, post-awakening what is there to distract you? Distract you from what? THIS is always it, here and now. 

But, I guess it's an individual thing like I said, not everyone wants or is ready for a relationship, it's like a must-have like our society makes out, it is simply about whether as an individual you wish to develop one, everyone is different.