Serotoninluv

Trump is Not Well

190 posts in this topic

I've been hoping that mainstream media and politicians would develop Green level understanding and empathy for both the people Trump is harming AND Trump himself. Of course Gabor Mate, one of the highest Green-level empathic clinical psychologists alive, recognized this years ago. In the video below, Mate describes Trump's trauma and how he is acting out as a traumatized person. Mate does not condone Trump's behavior, yet understands it from a compassionate and empathetic perspective. Mate spent many years of his life immersed with traumatized individuals and has both cognitive and embodied understanding. 

I've noticed that many liberals and progressives are upset over the harm Trump is causing others (e.g. children isolated in cages along the border). They have a compassionate and/or empathetic connection with those that are being harmed and want that harm to stop. They see Trump as a villain. In one context this is true and I support stopping Trump's harmful behavior. From another perspective, Trump is a traumatized person that is suffering. It is very difficult to see this due to the harm he is causing others. I think this is a good example of how a person can expand their capacity to love. I see Trump both as a villain that is harming others and also a person that is suffering within a traumatized hellish reality. I can feel both distaste and compassion for Trump. As well, I can feel some empathy - I've experienced trauma, insecurity, anxiety and panic - I know what that's like.

If U.S. society is evolving into Green, I would expect to see more people start to recognize this empathetic perspective. One form of resistance to this empathetic embodiment is the belief that it means we are condoning Trump's behavior. This is not true. We can have empathy and compassion for a traumatized mentally ill person while also taking vigorous action to point out and stop the harmful behavior.  

I'm starting to see more "mainstream" people recognize this. Below is an article written by a Republican who worked in the Reagan and Bush administrations. His article is a common perspective that Trump is a narcissist, has disordered personality, gaslights, creates chaos etc.  and that he is unfit to be president. Yet, he almost touches green here:

" Trump is profoundly compromised, acting just as you would imagine a person with a disordered personality would. Many Americans haven’t yet come to terms with the fact that we elected as president a man who is deeply damaged, an emotional misfit."

The author does not have the empathetic awareness of Gabor Mate, yet I think it is a step in the right direction and an indication of what a transition to Green might look like. The author recognizes that Trump is mentally ill, damaged and emotionally 'misfit'. Yet he doesn't yet have the awareness of the underlying trauma suffering within Trump. In contrast, Mate is empathically oriented and would not call Trump an 'emotional misfit'.

Contemplations that might help the author to develop Green might be: "What did the person go through to become 'damaged'?". "What is the experience like to be damaged, mentally ill and emotionally unfit?". . . This is still at a surface empathic level - most people are not empaths and would need some more "umpf". This might involve volunteering in a clinic with individuals that are 'damaged', mentally ill and are emotionally suffering. A deeper level might be to use psychedelics. Psychedelics can amplify one's empathy. They can also put a person into that state of mind. A psychedelic trip can enter mental realms that are 'damaged', insane and emotionally unfit. One might experience a form of trauma during a trip. Both of these features of psychedelics can lead to a deeper empathetic understanding and an expansion of one's capacity to understand and love others.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/09/donald-trump-not-well/597640/

 

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Wouldn't that make Mate more stage yellow if he understands Trumps behaviour from a compassionate and empathetic perspective without being judgemental?

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2 hours ago, andyjohnsonman said:

Wouldn't that make Mate more stage yellow if he understands Trumps behaviour from a compassionate and empathetic perspective without being judgemental?

I would say Mate has a lot of yellow, which isn't quite showcased in the context of the video. 

Empathy is a green trait and Mate has very strong empathic understanding ability. 

In a sense, I would consider absence of personal judgement to be a Tier2 trait, since the personality gets transcended as we enter Tier2. So in that regard, I suppose we could say it's yellow. Yet I think a mature strong empathetic green could still be operating at high green. 

I think Mate and Wilber are good contrasts. Mate has a much deeper embodiment of Green, while Wilber is much shallower on Green embodiment and is concentrated toward cognitive intellect.

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find that verry verry difficult to approach as there is a massive possibility in confusing significant size with relative size. of course understanding a situation is close to compassion seeing where a person comes from. but it`s so fast used as an excuse for all devilry he commited, he`s a grown up man who already lived the most of his life and isn`t even aware that he puts trauma on children. he probably had enough chances to develop compassion. can i understand, yes of course but if i would have the choice between one of these children and trump to treat first in a medical situation where it`s about life ans death i would exactly because of compassion safe the child first. why should one life be more relevant than another? i guess i would choose because of responsibility for the life of a person. you could say now: but trump is responsible for much more people than the child is. well yes, exactly. because i would take his responsibility on my shoulders with that.

Edited by remember

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Trump is the perfect person to teach the american audience all the ways in which the system can be played.
That gives you a solid ground to elect a candidate that is high up the spiral. Very exciting.

I was always wondering how is it possible to help traumatized adults in positions of power that will not admit their own problems.
Is it okay to just say 'it can't be done'?

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13 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Trump is the perfect person to teach the american audience all the ways in which the system can be played.
That gives you a solid ground to elect a candidate that is high up the spiral. Very exciting.

I was always wondering how is it possible to help traumatized adults in positions of power that will not admit their own problems.
Is it okay to just say 'it can't be done'?

do you really want to? and then he might get reelected :o

if he was a king there would maybe be no other chance. therapy in oval office nice immage.

Edited by remember

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2 hours ago, remember said:

find that verry verry difficult to approach as there is a massive possibility in confusing significant size with relative size. of course understanding a situation is close to compassion seeing where a person comes from. but it`s so fast used as an excuse for all devilry he commited, he`s a grown up man who already lived the most of his life and isn`t even aware that he puts trauma on children. he probably had enough chances to develop compassion. can i understand, yes of course but if i would have the choice between one of these children and trump to treat first in a medical situation where it`s about life ans death i would exactly because of compassion safe the child first. why should one life be more relevant than another? i guess i would choose because of responsibility for the life of a person. you could say now: but trump is responsible for much more people than the child is. well yes, exactly. because i would take his responsibility on my shoulders with that.

I agree it is very difficult to approach - including all the reasons you write about. I find it much harder to empathize with Trump than the vulnerable people he is harming. I'm high on the empathic scale and I naturally empathize with vulnerable people getting abused. This generally overwhelms my ability to empathize with the perpetrator. It takes effort for me to empathize with Trump. 

I agree with what you said about people using past trauma to justify their behavior. Some people even make up traumatic stories to get attention and compassion so they can cause more harm . . . In the case of Trump, he plays the victim, yet he does not use his past trauma as an excuse for harmful behavior. Being open about his own personal traumas would be far to intimate, scary and a sign of weakness to Trump.  He is the opposite. He is in denial about his past trauma and in denial that his behavior is harmful. From his perspective, it is beneficial. He is so far on the narcissist scale, that he completely lacks empathy. It's very difficult for me to imagine what this mentality is like, since I am on the other extreme toward empathy.

What makes it even harder to have empathy/compassion for Trump is that he has had the resources and access for help and to evolve beyond this. It's not like he lived in poverty, was abused as a child, continued to live in poverty, act out his trauma by hitting his own kids, getting locked up in solitary confinement, getting beaten in prison etc. . . Trump has had privilege his whole life and used his privilege and power to enact pain onto others - often the most vulnerable among us. So, he is a very difficult case.  He is at a Red level, yet had resources and opportunities to evolve upward. This is the first Red-level president the U.S. has had in modern history. It's a bizarre thing to process. Yet, other countries have had to deal with Red-level dictators.

Yet I can tell he is mentally ill and it's getting worse. I've watched his recent interviews and speeches closely and he is ill and not doing well. Yet, I also think he should be stopped. I live in a "swing state" that narrowly went to Trump and I will be doing a lot of volunteer work for the democratic nominee (hopefully not Biden).

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

Trump is the perfect person to teach the american audience all the ways in which the system can be played.
That gives you a solid ground to elect a candidate that is high up the spiral. Very exciting.

That is a potential positive from this mess. I do think a lot of people are becoming more "woke". Especially the younger "z" generation. I've been working with 18-22 y.o. students for 15 years. There is something different about this next younger generation - a type of transformational shift. 

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

I was always wondering how is it possible to help traumatized adults in positions of power that will not admit their own problems.
Is it okay to just say 'it can't be done'?

This is a really good question. Trump clearly needs therapy. If this was any other person - an uncle, a coworker, a bus driver - whoever - family and friends would have intervened to reduce the harm and help him. Yet power and denial makes intervention much much harder. 

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if we could isolate Trump in a small high conscious community off the grid. Filled with self-actualized people and psychologists - completely out of Trump's element. It would be hell for Trump, yet I wonder if he is capable of having a breakthrough.

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Trump thinks he is Well, how will you prove to him otherwise. Maybe to make him understand that he needs therapy would be like trying to make him believe that his parents are actually his uncles. The orange is not mechanical.

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18 minutes ago, oMarcos said:

Trump thinks he is Well, how will you prove to him otherwise. Maybe to make him understand that he needs therapy would be like trying to make him believe that his parents are actually his uncles. The orange is not mechanical.

Yea, I think he may be too far gone. Personal development and awakenings generally need some willingness. I can't see that from Trump. Especially if he is still in the power game and is fighting for power. . . If he lost re-election and became a toxic pariah and suffered greatly, perhaps he would become willing - yet I don't see it happening. 

One dynamic that is starting to slowly arise involves Republicans that have come out against Trump. The recent ones like Joe Walsh are being criticized because it took him so long. Republicans that come out in 2015 against Trump and remained against Trump are saying they are more credible than recent converts like Joe Walsh. There is a good chance this will continue in the future. I can imagine 10 years from now, Republican candidates touting their record on Trump - that they came out against Trump way back in 2017 and their Republican opponent didn't come out until 2020. There was a similar dynamic with democrats and the Iraq war. Democrats that voted for the Iraq war benefited short term, yet took a hit long term after the Iraq war debacle. This is one reason I support impeaching Trump. Put every congressman on record whether they side with Trump. Then shift the narrative to whether 4 Senators have the courage to do the right thing. Noone thinks the senate will convict, yet there would be extreme pressure on a small group of Republican Senators. . . 21 Tory's just left their party in the UK. It could happen in the U.S. as well.

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Once Trump is out everyone who supported him will deny they ever really supported him. Even people in his admin will come up with a story about how they were only pretending to go along with him to help save a bad situation from catastrophe.

There will be some epic denial going on in right-wing circles.

There's already a lot of denial in the never-Trump right-wing circles where these never-Trumpers delude themselves into believing that Trump is not a true conservative and that he's some kind of anomaly of conservativism and doesn't represent the "real" conservative base.

All this is ideology 101.

And in 50 years, no one will understand how Trump was supported by anyone. The whole dynamic of ideology will be denied by the public mind.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Once Trump is out everyone who supported him will deny they ever really supported him. Even people in his admin will come up with a story about how they were only pretending to go along with him to help save a bad situation from catastrophe.

There will some epic denial going on in right-wing circles.

I think we are starting to see the first signs of this. I've noticed a couple Republicans criticize Scaramucci and Walsh as coming out too late and highlighted that they had come out against Trump years ago - as if it gives them more credibility. I'm curious if this dynamic will intensify in the future. Perhaps years in the future when the Republican party is drying to launder itself, Republicans will be bragging that they came out against Trump earlier than other Republicans. 

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@Revolutionary Think Yeah, it's so predictable.

That's the tragedy of it. The people who commit these blunders then don't even learn the meta-lesson.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I've noticed a couple Republicans criticize Scaramucci and Walsh as coming out too late and highlighted that they had come out against Trump years ago - as if it gives them more credibility.

Walsh, this guy, is such a joke.

The funniest thing is, all these people who denounce Trump as having bad moral character are still for all of his policies. The only thing they don't like about him is his nasty Tweeting. They dislike the way he makes conservatives look, but they like the ethnocentric stage Blue & hyper-capitalism Orange core.

This is to fail to learn the lesson of Trump. Trump's surface nastiness is the least of the problem.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Walsh, this guy, is such a joke.

The funniest thing is, all these people who denounce Trump as having bad moral character are still for all of his policies. The only thing they don't like about him is his nasty Tweeting. They dislike the way he makes conservatives look, but they like the ethnocentric stage Blue & hyper-capitalism Orange core.

Watching Walsh try to launder himself from Trump is certainly a joke. Walsh has been an overt racist for years and is now trying to claim moral character by contrasting himself with Trump.

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@Serotoninluv @Leo Gura i believe both of you live in the US. So what do you think about 2020 election? What is the possibility trump getting reelected? Does the people of America realize now what an evil person Trump is?  

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Just now, Annoynymous said:

@Serotoninluv  i believe both of you live in the US. So what do you think about 2020 election? What is the possibility trump getting reelected? Does the people of America realize now what an evil person Trump is?  

Yes, I live in the U.S. . . Trump has hardcore support by about 35% of population - and they vote. They don't care if Trump lies, cheats, manipulates or harms "the other", like putting kids in cages. About another 10% of the population is soft support. They like aspects of Trump's policies, yet wish he would tone down his overt racism and awful tweeting habit.

Trump has a low chance of winning the popular vote. He actually lost the popular vote to Clinton by 2% (about 3 million votes). Unfortunately, the U.S. has an archaic "electoral college" which disproportionately weighs rural areas - Trump's strongest support. Trump is playing a game in which he needs to win about six "battle ground" states to win the presidency - even though he is likely to lose the popular vote.

A few problems I see with democrats. . . Only two democrats will excite the progressive base: Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. In contrast to right-wingers, progressive don't like candidates that lie, cheat, manipulate and schmooze with lobbyists (e.g. Hilary Clinton). This will keep them at home. I'm really worried about Biden - I don't think he can get the job done. He is a centrist corporate democrat and he will not excite the base. The democrats need a fighter to counter Trump. Unfortunately, Biden looks to be in early stages of dementia and clearly has cognitive decline. I don't think he will be able to handle the brutal assault of Trump and I think it would be awful for an elderly man losing his cognition to go through that.

As well, Republicans have a voter suppression infrastructure setup and democrats are often wimps to stand up to it (except for Stacey Abrams). 

If Trump can stabalize and return to his 2016 and 2018 form, I think it will be close for the electoral college (yet he will lose the popular vote). However, I think Trump is starting to show cracks and is losing mental fitness. I think he could further deteriorate mentally. As well, I am hoping that the rift with Mike Pence continues. Trump is not happy that Pence has ambitions to run for president in 2024 and Pence recently hired Marc Short (an anti-Trumper) as his chief of staff. There are rumors Trump wants to dump Pence and get Nikki Haley as a lapdog to appeal to moderate women. If Trumps mental decline and infighting continues, it will be much harder for Trump to get re-elected.

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@Serotoninluv i can understand your point.

I though have a slight different viewpoint in this topic.

What i have learned from reading international news media such as BBC, there is a high chance of trump getting re-elected. His supporters are somehow seems aggressive and strongly supports trump.

On the other hand, democrats seems to be divided. On one hand, centered democrat like Biden and on the other hand, progressive like Bernie and Warren. But the thing is although i think it will be great if progressives win but America seems not ready yet for that. Biden is currently leading the polls among democrats and by that i assume most democrat supporters are centrists like Biden. So he has more chance to win the primary. And if he wins, i think then trump will definately get re-elected. Because i don't see Biden any near charismatic and appealing like Trump.

Even if any progressive win the primary, i highly doubt they will get the electoral college that needed to win the presidency.  America is just not ready for the progressive and they wont elect someone who hold those ideology.

Maybe another four years from trump and the suffering that he will create for Americans would force them to think outside of the box and bid for progressivism.     

Edited by Annoynymous

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@Annoynymous Yes, Trump has rabid support of his followers - about 35% and they vote. 

Biden has soft support based mostly on name recognition. I think Biden would lose because he won’t excite the base, young voters and new voters. Plus his cognition is declining - his memory is beginning to fade and he is starting to show difficulty speaking coherently. Trump will be brutal in the next election and I don’t think Biden could handle it. 

I strongly believe a progressive is needed to stand up strong against Trump and show contrast. This will energize the base, youth and give new voters a reason to vote. Democrats win with inspiring progressives like Obama, they lose with corporate centrists like Hilary Clinton. 

As well, I don’t believe the media narrative that the U.S. isn’t ready for a progressive. Most progressive proposals on health care (M4A), gun laws (ubc) and climate change (GND) and wealth tax have enormous support ranging from 60-90% support. These are mainstream proposals. One needs to get to the most extreme left policies such as reparations and decriminalizing illegal immigration to see support drop below 50% and the democratic nominee will run on those. 

The progressive democrat will win on the issues. It isn’t even close. To win, Trump needs to make the contest personal, distort, use fear and create racial divisions. He would lose on the issues. That is why the democrats want to debate on the issues - because they win on the issues. Bigly.

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