SaWaSaurus

What's the deal with the moralization of sexuality?

65 posts in this topic

52 minutes ago, Surfingthewave said:

I'm curious to know how general statements come about, as they appear to become cultural values if enough people believe in them for a significant amount of time.

I think you actually know the basic answer - you mention fear, which I think is spot on.

To take it a step further, wonder "why fear sexuality?"

One way to perhaps understand this fear is to inspect your own personal fears.

If you can understand how and why your personal fears manifest, you can understand a lot about how most of the world operates as well.

Overall, really solid insights.

It's shocking how many problems are solved under the umbrella solution of "raising consciousness." 

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20 hours ago, Surfingthewave said:

Can you explain this point?  Do you mean sex workers, rather than sluts. 

What's to explain?

Everyone knows that women who have lots of casual sex are shamed and looked down upon as sluts.

Why does this happen?

Because the woman's value within society is directly related to her locking down a loyal man. If a woman is unable to do this, society thinks there's something wrong with her, like she's broken.

Of course all of this is silly in the absolute sense. But in the relative world of survival it's a big deal. A woman cannot be seen as a slut because then no man will want to lock her down. Which hurts her survival ability. A woman's survival is significantly increased by locking down a responsible man.

A woman who sleeps around a lot cannot be trusted by her man because he can't be sure if their kid is actually his. Women need to reassure men that their children are the man's children and no one else's. This is why men tend to be controlling of women. The man needs to be sure his wife isn't sleeping around behind his back because it can cost him enormously if she does so. In the past, such transgressions were punishable by death in many parts of the world.

When a child is born, women go out of their way to say, "Oh look, he looks just like Daddy!" as as a subtle way of reassuring her man that "Look, this is really your kid, not someone else's."

Sex and relationships are all a sneaky game of survival and manipulation. Automatically so. You're not at all conscious of how or why you're doing it. Rather, it's doing you. You are a marionette to sex.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A woman who sleep around a lot cannot be trusted by her man because he can't be sure if their kid is actually his. [...] This is why men tend to be controlling of women.

Among a slew of other nasty, subterranean (unconscious) personal reasons.

But speaking from a rational and biological viewpoint, yes.

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10 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Among a slew of other nasty, subterranean (unconscious) personal reasons.

Sure. Devilry tends to have many reasons, all of which boil down to survival and fear.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

One way to perhaps understand this fear is to inspect your own personal fears.

It's shocking how many problems are solved under the umbrella solution of "raising consciousness." 

Absolutely, the first point is spot on, I do have fears around my sexuality because I'm not entirely heterosexual and I don't want to "lock down a man". 

What's wrong with raising consciousness as a way to solve deep rooted issues? 

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Because the woman's value within society is directly related to her locking down a loyal man. If a woman is unable to do this, society thinks there's something wrong with her, like she's broken. 

A woman who sleeps around a lot cannot be trusted by her man because he can't be sure if their kid is actually his. 

Sex and relationships are all a sneaky game of survival and manipulation. Automatically so. You're not at all conscious of how or why you're doing. 

Do you see how the points you are making (based on what, your own experience? ) form the basis of false beliefs and ultimately cultural norms. For example you use the terms pick up (in previous posts) and locking down a man - can you see how these terms degrade women? I realise language is powerful and your points are relative but be careful. 

Sex and relationships can be beautiful and loving and can be an expression of what it means to be human. Morality and false beliefs (as well as survival) has made the appearance of sexuality sneaky and manipulative as you so describe. 

Edited by Surfingthewave

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2 hours ago, Surfingthewave said:

can you see how these terms degrade women?

It's not a matter of degrading or not. This is just how the sexual marketplace works for most humans. This is culture and survival.

It does not have to be this way in the future. But today this is the cultural reality.

When we talk about culture we are talking about averages and trends, so individual exceptions are expected. Just because you might not care about the cultural norms and values does not mean they don't exist.

Most women want to settle down with a man who will be loyal to her. To deny this is silly. This desire to settle down with a man is a survival strategy.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What's to explain?

Everyone knows that women who have lots of casual sex are shamed and looked down upon as sluts.

Why does this happen?

Because the woman's value within society is directly related to her locking down a loyal man. If a woman is unable to do this, society thinks there's something wrong with her, like she's broken.

Of course all of this is silly in the absolute sense. But in the relative world of survival it's a big deal. A woman cannot be seen as a slut because then no man will want to lock her down. Which hurts her survival ability. A woman's survival is significantly increased by locking down a responsible man.

A woman who sleeps around a lot cannot be trusted by her man because he can't be sure if their kid is actually his. Women need to reassure men that their children are the man's children and no one else's. This is why men tend to be controlling of women. The man needs to be sure his wife isn't sleeping around behind his back because it can cost him enormously if she does so. In the past, such transgressions were punishable by death in many parts of the world.

@Leo Gura  I'd love for you to do a Spiral Dynamics video on Relationships and sex. From this post and many others, you seem to be clearly in a Stage Orange thinking on sex and relationships. You talk as though this is just the way it is the world. Not at all adding that there are many many communities around the world that practice Stage Green and above sex and relationships. Such as non-ownership, compersion, joy in your partner and their partners enjoying themselves, Polyamory, sharing partners without jealousy, mutual respect, honoring all involved, exploration past your boundaries of comfort and control, and most of all....love. Love for whom you're having sex with, whether it's for a night or a lifetime. These people don't have to 'hunt' for partners. It happens organically through mutual joy of living. Sex is a celebration of life. There's not judgment of a woman's sexuality, but celebration of her shedding all of societies shames, and come all in to her full sexual being that is 100% free. These communities are out there, I myself have lived this way all my adult life. 

Stage Orange, which is full of slut-shaming, trying to get a husband, manipulation for sex, and so on, is what you speak of above.

Just like you give people hope for their own liberation through enlightenment, I would suggest giving people hope of what a higher and higher Stage is like. Teaching what can be possible through advanced Stage relationships and sex. 

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We need morals around sex because at the age where people start to be able to have sex they're too young to understand the world properly. 

And irresponsible sex can ruin your life. Women are more at risk here than men, but men can also be damaged as well from unconscious sex... 

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6 minutes ago, Jed Vassallo said:

From this post and many others, you seem to be clearly in a Stage Orange thinking on sex and relationships.

I am not stating my views. I am explaining how the culture holds sexuality.

Of course my explanation is stage Blue/Orange because that's what our culture mostly is.

If you wish to transcend this Blue/Orange stage we first need to be honest about it and understand it. Many people want to jump to stage Green love without fully understanding that sex & "love" are survival strategies. And then of course these same Green people end up having terrible relationships and much sex which ends in misery. That's because they fooled themselves into calling their selfish survival strategies "love".

"love" is very tricky. The devil co-opts love so easily.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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This is the worst case scenario I guess?? I mean, there are different views on sex and love and partners nowadays. 

First, there are women who do not want children. In the Netherlands it is something you can share, and you won't get judged. You might be even thanked for, because of the environment burden taking children has (there are exceptions ofcourse, but still) ;) I think the only struggle is within the woman (as I experienced), because of the question 'why do I don't want to have children? Is there something wrong with me?' because more people  have children especially in my age-group now and it's different not to want them. But it's not true that all women want sex to reproduce. 

Second, polyamory is being more and more accepted. Not polygamy of 'open relationship', but the ethical approach to loving people and have different connections at the same time. It enables people to give love unconditionally and not to expect anything in return. In a polyamoric relationship you communicate honest about your needs, expectations (if you do have them) and feelings as a human being with an ego, but you are never 'owned'. 

Third, sex or erotic sensations can help to encounter judgements of your ego or as mentioned above, deep rooted problems, like yoga does. It's a different approach in get to know the connection of the thoughts and feelings in your body. This is also an accepted view and there are whole communities dedicated to this in a loving and respectful manner. And sex gives nice sensations in the body. If your not trying to reproduce, it's just a feeling which can be enjoyed.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I am not stating my views. I am explaining how the culture holds sexuality.

Of course my explanation is stage Blue/Orange because that's what our culture mostly is.

If you wish to transcend this Blue/Orange stage we first need to be honest about it and understand it. Many people want to jump to stage Green love without fully understanding that sex & "love" are survival strategies. And then of course these same Green people end up having terrible relationships and much sex which ends in misery. That's because they fooled themselves into calling their selfish survival strategies "love".

"love" is very tricky. The devil co-opts love so easily.

Reading the posts that came up while I was typing mine. If you're talking about the whole population on earth and the overall/general views. You're right.

 

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12 minutes ago, vander87 said:

This is the worst case scenario I guess?? I mean, there are different views on sex and love and partners nowadays. 

...can be enjoyed.

Thanks for sharing this @vander87 I'm in this situation where I had a few awakenings (f ex after a tantra massage ) where I had insight into a transcendental truth or reality.

In my experience, when you become more aware the sexual drive is getting (a lot ^_^) higher. 
+ I'm still convinced by doing the practice of tantra you become more aware. 

I'm single at this point and I feel I'm perfectly ok not having a relationship and living on my own. I don't have the feeling I'm lacking anything. 

Now I'm thinking having different deep relationships (more than "friends with benefits) that will give me the chance to share my love (which I feel I have a lot 💜) and sex ^^

I can't imagine to have a (serial) monogamous anymore (or poly) . 

In my limited experience I notice that it's not that easy to say the first time you meet someone on a date how you feel about monogamous relationships :P It's also difficult to explain it to a men that isn't aware yet. ..

I also asked myself (also mentioned in another post of mine): 

  • What is the essence? Why do we want to deepen our relationships?
  • What vibration are we searching for?  
  • Is it that simple TO BE the vibration what a deep relationship represent?
  • The vibration we want to find in the other we have to create by ourselves? 
Quote

"How can you be a seeker when you can create it yourself"
"There is no existing other"
"I am consciousness. There is no out there experience, everything is now, all meet in consciousness"

@Mu_ Gave me this insight :

A relationship is actually a relationship with yourself > in action on a micro and macro scale. 

You can learn about yourself through science, interaction with something, relationship with another, alone in silence and many other ways.
Maybe it's just time to learn about myself within relationships that are not revolved around one person who I commit only to...

Still exploring how to evolve from this state further ... 

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55 minutes ago, Jed Vassallo said:

 I'd love for you to do a Spiral Dynamics video on Relationships and sex. ... Stage relationships and sex. 

@Jed Vassallo Can you elaborate about these communities, where to find them? 

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I notice you guys still have not penetrated (excuse the pun) the issue of survival as talked about in my 2 part survival series.

Stuff like using sex for pleasure is still survival! Survival is not just about making babies. Survival is about maintaining your self. The desire for intimacy, romance, and companionship is all survival.

If a thing in life has any importance to you, you can be sure it's tied to your survival in some elaborate way.

If a thing was irrelevant to your survival, you would not be talking about it, much less having a strong opinion about it.

Opinions and emotions are survival.


"Be melting snow. Wash yourself of yourself." -- Rumi

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Posted (edited)

Hehe... like the subtitle of 'The Game' ;) 

I was focussing on 'survival' as in reproduce, not about the survival of my thoughts and beliefs, etc. If you approach the topic in this way, the underlying survival-urge lies in the survival of giving love and gain more consiousness of reality. 

Edited by vander87

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39 minutes ago, Ella said:

In my experience, when you become more aware the sexual drive is getting (a lot ^_^) higher. 
+ I'm still convinced by doing the practice of tantra you become more aware. 

I'm single at this point and I feel I'm perfectly ok not having a relationship and living on my own. I don't have the feeling I'm lacking anything. 

Now I'm thinking having different deep relationships (more than "friends with benefits) that will give me the chance to share my love (which I feel I have a lot 💜) and sex ^^

I can't imagine to have a (serial) monogamous anymore (or poly) . 

In my limited experience I notice that it's not that easy to say the first time you meet someone on a date how you feel about monogamous relationships :P It's also difficult to explain it to a men that isn't aware yet. ..

Thank you for your reply!

I'm having the same view and experiences as you describe. Although, it's interesting that you find it not easy to say. Why is that? Not in a judgemental way, just curious :) <3

I have no problem in sharing my thoughts and views in a conversation. Not on a date, just when you're talking to people and the topic comes up. I wouldn't go on a date if the other person wasn't aware of my views, because the other person might have other expectations and well, you know, they might get hurt. I've also noticed that dating (as in tinder/whatever app/website used) doesn't work for me at all. Mostly, I just have great conversations with people, and sometimes other people get interested and want to go on a date after you explained your views and beliefs. If people don't like it or reject it, it doesn't matter. Different people, different ways of life. There is no way of living life that more or less valuable, value is a thing we (as humans) created. 

 

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Posted (edited)

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I notice you guys still have not penetrated (excuse the pun) the issue of survival as talked about in my 2 part survival series.

Stuff like using sex for pleasure is still survival! Survival is not just about making babies. Survival is about maintaining your self. The desire for intimacy, romance, and companionship is all survival.

If a thing in life has any importance to you, you can be sure it's tied to your survival in some elaborate way.

If a thing was irrelevant to your survival, you would not be talking about it, much less having a strong opinion about it.

Opinions and emotions are survival.

this is a really important point that you make actually, in order to reach "Real" love. you can not get past survival if you can not recognize what that is in the first place. unconditional love is nothing that a mere normal day-to-day human can imagine. and it is a bitter pill to take, the knowing of the fact that your "pure" love for your partner, is actually an egotistical, selfish delusion that you tell to yourself, in order for you to get your needs completely satisfied. love is actually just giving, not taking. and it's a really complex matter that can't be elaborated in just a forum's post.

Edited by student

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5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you wish to transcend this Blue/Orange stage we first need to be honest about it and understand it. Many people want to jump to stage Green love without fully understanding that sex & "love" are survival strategies. And then of course these same Green people end up having terrible relationships and much sex which ends in misery. That's because they fooled themselves into calling their selfish survival strategies "love".

"love" is very tricky. The devil co-opts love so easily.

I love this.

Yes, yes, and yes.

It's worth studying the unconsciousness of most "love" simply to not personally fall into this trap.

7 hours ago, Surfingthewave said:

What's wrong with raising consciousness as a way to solve deep rooted issues? 

Nothing's wrong! O.o

I was merely saying that "raising consciousness" indeed mends almost everything there is that you could call "problematic."

Is that not fascinating?

A universal band-aid with a 100% success rate! Don't take it for granted, this is worth pondering.

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Posted (edited)

I like the Rupert Spira quote about love and relationships. He says the best thing you can say to your partner is I love you but I don't need you. He's right. To fully embody love you need to transcend it. To have an amazing fulfilling gratifying relationship you let your partner go (not literally but to let go of your attachment to that person) because like everything in life as I've realised through deep inner work, nothing can make you truly happy. Relationships included. A lot of women and men peg their happiness on finding love, the right relationship to complete the whole, when actually this isn't needed. We are already complete.

Yes there are cultural norms around women and men but if we're talking about averages and trends - I live in a place where there are much more alternative relationships as @Jed Vassallo and @vander87 described. Just because something is average why is it the norm? And why should we use this as a benchmark for acceptance? I care about these norms but they don't apply to my life at all. Perhaps both men and women feel pressurised into these norms in terms of sex and relationships because of the existence of such social constructs when in fact these social constructs are bottomless (excuse the pun).

I get the whole survival debate but frankly, it's a cop out. Yes we do these things to survive but we're more nuanced than that and more non dual than that.

 

Edited by Surfingthewave

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