How can you trust your mind?

[TheAvatarState]

28 minutes ago, Roman Edouard said:

I like your response to my "just don't agree with everything he says." Because you can use what he says and filter it with what you know to get closer to truth.

That is totally backwards. That is not what I said, read it again. "Doesn't matter if you agree or disagree" is an invitation to drop all prior knowledge and explore what he said for yourself. You know, the drop all ideology part? Don't filter anything he says with your previous ideology, take it in. Be radically open minded. The point I was making was don't believe in it. This is how you should treat every teaching!

28 minutes ago, Roman Edouard said:

about the direct experience point.

This is very simple. What do you have other than direct experience? How else can you interact with the world? How else can you read a book? How else can you study scientific concepts? Is there anything else you can be certain of other than your human perception?

Edited December 28, 2018 by TheAvatarState

[SOUL]

On 12/26/2018 at 5:05 PM, Roman Edouard said:

Human beings are clearly naturally very deluded creatures. Everyday, I reflect on dozens of deluded thoughts that I had and it shocks me. I even hold delusion beliefs that I know for a fact are false, yet I still hold them since my emotions have that control on me. When you see religious people or people in cults they are clearly very deluded. It's safe to say that everyone is to many degrees. Makes sense since the human mind is their to aid your survival, not to help you understand the truth about topics that you perceive as "cool" and "interesting." My question is: how can you be sure that any beliefs you hold are true if there is strong evidence that humans are naturally deluded creatures?

I have learned that searching for 'truth' can cause self suffering and often does cause it in one's inner life so I prefer to be at peace with life even if it is an illusion we are deluded with.

On 12/27/2018 at 7:32 AM, Anton Rogachevski said:

How do you know thoughts aren't awareness? Are thoughts separate from awareness?

What is a thought?

What is awareness?

@SOUL Where's our old chimp friend Soul to come here and resolve this with his beautiful integrative thoughts? I miss you bro.

That's really kind of you to say, thank you.

It really depends on what one considers 'thoughts' and 'awareness' so it can happen that there is some misunderstanding between people in discussing it. In my view thoughts are a form of awareness, they are derived from the stimuli and sensations of our body and culminate in our mind but I perceive that we have many forms of awareness in our manifest experience.

There is a form of awareness which we can perceive free from the influences of the self conscious and that does perceive the self conscious but isn't 'separate' from it. Thoughts are a product of the sense of self the body naturally creates for survival and has the effect of feeling a separation. So thoughts feel separated but we can perceive from that unified awareness as well.

 

[Nahm]

19 hours ago, Roman Edouard said:

What is a devil's advocate?

Finite mind is infinite experiencing self as other than infinite self. Like when you wake up in the morning and see everyone (“finites”) in your dream was actually you, the dreamer (infinite). Whoever was in the dream, the time it took place in, the environment it took place in, whatever transpired, the entirety of that dream “reality”, was all actually, you, dreaming it. This is hard to see while asleep and dreaming, but quite effortlessly seen when you wake up in the morning, and then within a few minutes, just as effortlessly forgotten.

In the dream of reality, there is also the appearance of body / minds. To the sleeper, the appearance of things is taken at face value, as reality. The infinite one (you)  identifies with the body/mind, fully forgetting it’s infinitude, the actuality of it’s self / actual reality (you). So unbeknownst to the finite mind, the ‘awareness’ of it, you, are also the ‘time’ it is taking place, the ‘environment’ in which it is taking place, and whatever it is which appears to be ‘taking place’. 

The implication of this forgetting is that you are a body / mind,  separate, and temporary. The dream of reality is not at a loss for convincibility, employing “past”, “present”, “future”, “the now”, “evolution”, “Big Bang”, even breathing, etc. 

To perpetuate this, the finite mind perceives dualistically, or, a series of choices in perspective between this way and that way. This way, or, that way choice is reactional, based on having identified with preferences, and believing in the past. (Picture dominos)

The benefit of realizing this, is seeing you can look at things; situations, people, objects, experiences, etc, etc, in infinite ways. That you don’t need to identify with preferences, and you don’t need to choose between two ways, or, the reactional opposite of a view expressed by someone else.  

When infinite perfection forgets itself to experience finite, that finite can not appear perfect, or there would be no experience of finite. (You already know it was all you)

This state of “having forgot” is referred to as “original sin”, again, not a judgment, but the inherent nature of what is perfect & whole, appearing as other than perfect & whole. 

Reaction in dualistic view, specifically in opposite, or in opposition, perpetuates the state of “forgot” (suffering), and is referred to as advocating for “the devil” (falsity of the finite mind), of which, there actually isn’t. 

So it would initially seem as a paradox; you simply can not trust the finite mind, and you can most definitly trust the infinite mind. The first must be realized to be illusionary to “remember” the other.

”Only a sleeper considers it real. Then death comes like dawn, and you wake up laughing at what you thought was your grief”. -Rumi 

[ground]

On 27.12.2018 at 1:05 AM, Roman Edouard said:

My question is: how can you be sure that any beliefs you hold are true if there is strong evidence that humans are naturally deluded creatures?

Belief always is imputation of truth. No truth can be found on the side of the object. 'truth' is an innate mental habit and it's delusion.

Liberation is holding no beliefs.

[Jack River]

Truth is action. 

Either way what is, is truth. 

The question is do we live as truth in the sense that there is no distortion/resistance to what is from moment to moment(the now). 

Do we live in reality, or do we hold/contain reality within ourselves? 

Distortion/illusion/self deception is bound to happen when we feel we live in reality. That is to live dualistically. 

But when there is a seeing that truth is all there is we see that reality is in us.

That’s the difference...truth holds reality. Reality doesn’t hold truth. To live true means we hold/contain reality and act from that place of wholeness/order. 

Which means there is a comprehension of the whole of reality. Then there is no reaction psychologically/spiritually to what is(truth). 

To see/understand holistically the underlying order in disorder is order. 

Truth can then put order in reality. 

 

[ground]

On 27.12.2018 at 1:05 AM, Roman Edouard said:

My question is: how can you be sure that any beliefs you hold are true if there is strong evidence that humans are naturally deluded creatures?

1. Belief is imputation of truth.

2. No imputation, no truth.

3. How can one gain certainty if nothing is true from its own side? And ... certainty about what?
Answer: Nothing can be said about that. Any communication about that is intimately restricted to the sphere of teacher/guru and student.
Can a student know? No, a student can rely. Once a student knows he is a master and has left the sphere of a student.

 

What can be learned from that?

If you are a student for a long time then something has gone wrong. The fault is either on your side or on the side of the teacher.

 

 

[SOUL]

1 hour ago, ground said:

Liberation is holding no beliefs.

.....is a belief.

[Shin]

Every beliefs are false.

Just look on your direct experience and just ask yourself if the thing you think is true even exist in that moment.

If it isn't experienced right now it isn't true, it doesn't exist.
It doesn't matter if it were, that would mean you're having a thought,
And a thought is a projection of the past or the future, never what's actual.

The thought exist, but the content of it only exist as a thought, not in your direct experience.
Which doesn't mean that what you're thinking about will never be real or experienced, just that right now it doesn't exist.

The only thing you can be sure of, is that something must exist in order to be conscious of your current experience,
In my experience that's the only thing I can be sure of.

[ground]

30 minutes ago, SOUL said:

.....is a belief.

Going by words,  yes. But  if you do not hold any belief you can realize liberation.

Edited December 28, 2018 by ground

[SOUL]

19 minutes ago, ground said:

Going by words,  yes. But  if you do not hold any belief you can realize liberation.

Even if one holds  beliefs Liberation can be realized.

[Anton Rogachevski]

@SOUL

6 hours ago, SOUL said:

I have learned that searching for 'truth' can cause self suffering and often does cause it in one's inner life so I prefer to be at peace with life even if it is an illusion we are deluded with.

That's really kind of you to say, thank you.

It really depends on what one considers 'thoughts' and 'awareness' so it can happen that there is some misunderstanding between people in discussing it. In my view thoughts are a form of awareness, they are derived from the stimuli and sensations of our body and culminate in our mind but I perceive that we have many forms of awareness in our manifest experience.

There is a form of awareness which we can perceive free from the influences of the self conscious and that does perceive the self conscious but isn't 'separate' from it. Thoughts are a product of the sense of self the body naturally creates for survival and has the effect of feeling a separation. So thoughts feel separated but we can perceive from that unified awareness as well.

 

Incredible! As always. I love the thought of awareness taking many forms, like it's formless but shapeshifts and becomes what it is 'required' of it. Good to have you back, your thought is like fresh water in the desert.

How do you reach such deep insights? Are you channeling Winter Knight? 

Edited December 29, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[Anton Rogachevski]

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

Finite mind is infinite experiencing self as other than infinite self. Like when you wake up in the morning and see everyone (“finites”) in your dream was actually you, the dreamer (infinite). Whoever was in the dream, the time it took place in, the environment it took place in, whatever transpired, the entirety of that dream “reality”, was all actually, you, dreaming it. This is hard to see while asleep and dreaming, but quite effortlessly seen when you wake up in the morning, and then within a few minutes, just as effortlessly forgotten.

In the dream of reality, there is also the appearance of body / minds. To the sleeper, the appearance of things is taken at face value, as reality. The infinite one (you)  identifies with the body/mind, fully forgetting it’s infinitude, the actuality of it’s self / actual reality (you). So unbeknownst to the finite mind, the ‘awareness’ of it, you, are also the ‘time’ it is taking place, the ‘environment’ in which it is taking place, and whatever it is which appears to be ‘taking place’. 

The implication of this forgetting is that you are a body / mind,  separate, and temporary. The dream of reality is not at a loss for convincibility, employing “past”, “present”, “future”, “the now”, “evolution”, “Big Bang”, even breathing, etc. 

To perpetuate this, the finite mind perceives dualistically, or, a series of choices in perspective between this way and that way. This way, or, that way choice is reactional, based on having identified with preferences, and believing in the past. (Picture dominos)

The benefit of realizing this, is seeing you can look at things; situations, people, objects, experiences, etc, etc, in infinite ways. That you don’t need to identify with preferences, and you don’t need to choose between two ways, or, the reactional opposite of a view expressed by someone else.  

When infinite perfection forgets itself to experience finite, that finite can not appear perfect, or there would be no experience of finite. (You already know it was all you)

This state of “having forgot” is referred to as “original sin”, again, not a judgment, but the inherent nature of what is perfect & whole, appearing as other than perfect & whole. 

Reaction in dualistic view, specifically in opposite, or in opposition, perpetuates the state of “forgot” (suffering), and is referred to as advocating for “the devil” (falsity of the finite mind), of which, there actually isn’t. 

So it would initially seem as a paradox; you simply can not trust the finite mind, and you can most definitly trust the infinite mind. The first must be realized to be illusionary to “remember” the other.

”Only a sleeper considers it real. Then death comes like dawn, and you wake up laughing at what you thought was your grief”. -Rumi 

Incredible! Upon reading this, it feels like there could be no more question left.

Thank you dear Nahm.

[SOUL]

32 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@SOUL

Incredible! As always. I love the thought of awareness taking many forms, like it's formless but shapeshifts and becomes what it is 'required' of it. Good to have you back, your thought is like fresh water in the desert.

Yes, I probably should have said at least one of the forms of awareness is formless. This unmanifest awareness is accessible to our consciousness and from the perspective of it we perceive the unity and it's absolute nature.

[Anton Rogachevski]

10 minutes ago, SOUL said:

This unmanifest awareness is accessible to our consciousness

Could there be a duality here?

[Truth Addict]

@Roman Edouard

It's a fact, all beliefs are false.

Tricky, but nevertheless, true.

[ground]

12 hours ago, SOUL said:

.....is a belief.

Belief is imputation of truth. Therefore what you called belief isn't belief on my side. However you can believe that it is and I can't do anything to make you drop that belief.
If merely uttering words or writing words were the expression of belief then intentionally telling a lie would be impossible.

11 hours ago, SOUL said:

Even if one holds  beliefs Liberation can be realized.

If one holds beliefs then upon liberation all beliefs have vanished.

 

Inspect my words, there isn't any truth in them. All of my words originate depending on conditions.

 

The point is if one cannot identify the mental factor in one's mind stream that causes or (better) is belief one will never understand what I am talking about. If on the other side one can identify this factor in one's mind stream one has necessarily directly perceived emptiness.

Edited December 29, 2018 by ground

[Anton Rogachevski]

@ivankiss

It's great to have an artist's touch here.

Thank you for you contribution dear sir! I hope to keep reading your posts.

Cheers

[SOUL]

14 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Could there be a duality here?

A duality is perceived in the feeling of separation from the sense of self which is the attached awareness of our consciousness in the manifest. Our unattached awareness of our consciousness is unified with the unmanifest awareness of the absolute and feels connected so there is a perception of unity.

The question is do we bring attention to and endorse the attached sense of separated self or do we abide in the unattached sense of the unified being? That will answer whether there is a perception of separation/duality or a perception of one/unity.

5 hours ago, ground said:

Belief is imputation of truth. Therefore what you called belief isn't belief on my side. However you can believe that it is and I can't do anything to make you drop that belief.
If merely uttering words or writing words were the expression of belief then intentionally telling a lie would be impossible.

If one holds beliefs then upon liberation all beliefs have vanished.

 

Inspect my words, there isn't any truth in them. All of my words originate depending on conditions.

 

The point is if one cannot identify the mental factor in one's mind stream that causes or (better) is belief one will never understand what I am talking about. If on the other side one can identify this factor in one's mind stream one has necessarily directly perceived emptiness.

I experience liberation and there are still beliefs. I believe that these words I type have meaning that can be communicated, I believe that when I hit 'submit reply' these words will post on the forum. Although, I also believe that the meaning and posting of words have no influence and effect on my experience of liberation.

Liberation is the cessation of self suffering not the cessation of belief. Belief is merely a mechanism the mind uses to help us successfully navigate in the manifest existence. Belief can cause self suffering when we attach our awareness to those beliefs so create self identity on those beliefs.

If we abide in unattached awareness of being present any belief held has no self identity creating or sustaining effect in our experience so the cessation of self suffering can be realized in liberation. Belief in that experience is nothing more than just a psychological feature that helps keep the organism alive and not the cause of self suffering.

You have beliefs as well since you type out words trusting they have meaning that can be communicated and hit 'submit reply' trusting they will post on the forum. If Leo paid the bills they will.....we believe.

Edited December 29, 2018 by SOUL

[Anton Rogachevski]

@SOUL  

So duality is a choice made at the second of labeling yet unmanifested awareness. This makes it all very easy! Just don't label if you don't want separation to occur.

And so everything within awareness is awareness, but one can label and divide it to manifest objects.

Are you a wizard?

What a bliss,
Deep bow to you, old friend.

Edited December 29, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[SOUL]

@Anton Rogachevski

Well, even the words 'unmanifest awareness' are just labels we use to communicate meaning to another and our mind uses those labels for conceptualization so labeling itself isn't what causes the feeling of separation. When we attach our awareness of being to a self identity in something like labels, beliefs, concepts and on and on that sense of separation blossoms in our consciousness because it realizes the division between what we are and we are not in the mind through the sense of self identity.

Even if someone identifies as the one who severs attachment, dissolves ego, dis-identifies, becomes no-self, resists something or actively does something to attain it creates a feeling of separation as duality. Abiding in unattached awareness of being is such a subtle non-activity it confounds the mind because it has nothing to cling to in self identity. So, in effect the feeling of separation is the source of self suffering and abiding in the unity of unattached awareness of being is liberating to our conscious experience.

Edited December 29, 2018 by SOUL