Emerald

Great video on climate change!

114 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, Outer said:

Well you do agree that the average temperature is rising, that carbon dioxide and other gases traps in heat, that carbon dioxide levels in the earth atmosphere is the highest its been for 400,000 years or longer? But you might not agree that the carbon dioxide increase is a large part of the average temperature increase?

 

k , I think I got answer for your question, does carbon dioxide increase have effect on earth temperature, yes, does it have effect on larger scale  of cyclical changes, no, cyclical changes are happening irrelevant of carbon dioxide increase of temperature, it can just change how cycle will look because of this extra factor. 

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6 hours ago, daniel695 said:

if the ice melts wouldn't the water level be at the same level because the size of the ice was pushing the water high so by melting it remains the same level? i saw a video that proves this. what do you guys think?

Antarctica is not like a giant ice cube floating in the ocean. It is a chunk of land that is connected to the Earth. So, if the ice melts from it, the sea levels will rise because liquid that comes from a glaciers that are above the water will melt into the ocean.

Sort of like if there were a mountain made of ice on an island. Then the ice melts and that mountain of melted ice causes a rise in sea level. 


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8 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

I just came on the forum with the very purpose of posting this video. Happy you got the same idea !

:P

 

It's definitely one of my favorites so far! It was too good not to share. :)


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Nice to see some love for Contrapoints. She was the one who helped me get out of deep orange.

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14 hours ago, Emerald said:

The idea that you don't buy blaming people in power, prevents you from seeing that people in power are objectively responsible.  It is this idea that prevents you from seeing clearly what the core issue is and means that you're likely to unconsciously go with he flow and support them and the system that keeps them sustained.

 

I always like to read your nuanced take on things but I have to disagree with this point. Blaming individuals even people in power isn't a systemic way to view a system. The reason anybody you would blame is in power in the first place is because the system not only allows but also promotes them. The system is the root and the people in charge are leaves. 

Edited by Aimblack

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5 hours ago, Aimblack said:

I always like to read your nuanced take on things but I have to disagree with this point. Blaming individuals even people in power isn't a systemic way to view a system. The reason anybody you would blame is in power in the first place is because the system not only allows but also promotes them. The system is the root and the people in charge are leaves. 

In a sense, a system is always an invisible hand thing. So, you could say that no one is actually responsible for a system running the way that it does. So, I get what you're saying. But we also have to understand that the people in power are at the top of the chain of command in determining where that system will go. And that people will mostly follow suit with the status quo set up by people in power. So, they have the lion's share of the power in determining how the system will go. So, they are very much part of the root of the problem.

For example, I'm a substitute teacher. And I can tell you, that 95% of classroom issues come about because the teacher has classroom management issues. So, while the students are responsible for their own behaviors, the teacher is always responsible for the behavioral set-point in the classroom.

And it's important to know when you're in that position that students are generally the way that they are. Students will be students. And people will be people. 

So, 10% of the students in the classroom will misbehave no matter what, 10% of the students in the classroom will behave no matter what, and 80% will be taken by the wave of whichever trend is happening in the classroom. So, if students are misbehaving in the classroom, the consequences will come to the student for the behavior issue. But the teacher is responsible as the leader and the one who is managing and setting the behavioral set-point of the class. And if there is an unruly class, 95% of the time, it's because the teacher frequently failed to meet the classroom management challenges head on with a sense of efficacy.

So, from this perspective, the people in power are the people responsible for maintaining the status quo of the system. And they are the ones that benefit from the system running the way that it does. 

And it's important for individual people to be conscious of this, because then we can cease to be complicit within the system. And we can leverage our power as consumers and as members of society to make it clear that we will not subsidize the power of those industry leaders if they continue to allow for negative outcomes. 

And if those leaders want to keep their power and money, they need for the members of society to be on board with that. So, they will either change their practices to suit the needs/wants of the changing populace or they won't be in power very long. Powerful people only derive their power and status from the individuals underneath them. 

So, identifying the people in power as the ones responsible will help people realize that they have very real and tangible power themselves, as those leaders derive their power from the people and their attention, approval, and money. And if we cut off that supply, then they have to either change or resign their power. 

Now, you're correct that just demonizing people in power is not going to do anything. But recognizing that the people in power are responsible for the negative things that come from the system, and recognizing that we are responsible for the people in power, being in power... we can then begin to wield our power to change the system more effectively. 


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@Winter up to you, but its like saying, "I will never use my left leg". Just saying...

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9 hours ago, Emerald said:

In a sense, a system is always an invisible hand thing. So, you could say that no one is actually responsible for a system running the way that it does. So, I get what you're saying. But we also have to understand that the people in power are at the top of the chain of command in determining where that system will go. And that people will mostly follow suit with the status quo set up by people in power. So, they have the lion's share of the power in determining how the system will go. So, they are very much part of the root of the problem.

The system determines where the system goes. That's what makes systems so complex they cause and perpetuate their own behaviors. Goals of the system can of course set and be influenced by people  but the very reason those people are in power in the first place is that they strive for the goals that are in line with the system.

 

9 hours ago, Emerald said:

For example, I'm a substitute teacher. And I can tell you, that 95% of classroom issues come about because the teacher has classroom management issues. So, while the students are responsible for their own behaviors, the teacher is always responsible for the behavioral set-point in the classroom.

And it's important to know when you're in that position that students are generally the way that they are. Students will be students. And people will be people. 

So, 10% of the students in the classroom will misbehave no matter what, 10% of the students in the classroom will behave no matter what, and 80% will be taken by the wave of whichever trend is happening in the classroom. So, if students are misbehaving in the classroom, the consequences will come to the student for the behavior issue. But the teacher is responsible as the leader and the one who is managing and setting the behavioral set-point of the class. And if there is an unruly class, 95% of the time, it's because the teacher frequently failed to meet the classroom management challenges head on with a sense of efficacy.

That's a completely different system though. Can you find examples where there is one leverage point that is actually one person? Of course but in real life complex systems that is almost never the case.

 

9 hours ago, Emerald said:

And it's important for individual people to be conscious of this, because then we can cease to be complicit within the system. And we can leverage our power as consumers and as members of society to make it clear that we will not subsidize the power of those industry leaders if they continue to allow for negative outcomes.

The exact opposite is the case because people identify leaders or groups of people as the cause is what maintains the system. There are objective things that bother most people but because they blame different people they see themselves as opponents and become a split society. Realizing that trump is no more at fault than any other politician before him opens the door for people to unite on issues that 60-90% of the population agrees with and there are surprisingly many issues like that in America right now.

 

9 hours ago, Emerald said:

So, identifying the people in power as the ones responsible will help people realize that they have very real and tangible power themselves, as those leaders derive their power from the people and their attention, approval, and money. And if we cut off that supply, then they have to either change or resign their power.

http://www.allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scorpion.html I feel like just like the frog you don't see that a scorpion is a scorpion and can't be anything else.

The second leaders stop acting the way they are expected to by other people in power they instantly lose the power they have. The only power they have is the power to advance the goals of the system.

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@Aimblack Then, if you don't see the leaders as a leverage point, then what is the actionable solution that everyday people can leverage?


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Ok I hate to be the pessimistic collapsitarian alarmist in this thread but we are headed for some very troubling times. Many of us will be witnesses to some of the most traumatic and distressing events to ever unfold in human history. Part of me thinks undergoing the severe implications of abrupt climate change is a necessary step in the evolution of the human psyche. What do you guys think?

Will the implications of climate change force us to move up the spiral as a collective? Or will we regress back to purple and beige like our cave dwelling ancestors?

 

Edited by abundance

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@Emerald IMO educating ourselves is probably the start. Having a solid foundation of climate science and actively spreading and embodying that message by sharing it through art, comedy, books. Another angle would be to make a shift from people based to policy based. Instead of talking and focusing on people we should focus on specific policies that address the situation we are in. I hope I'm getting across what I mean because I can see how making the distinction "policies" and "people" can seem arbitrary and nitpicky...but it makes total sense in my head I swear xD 

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42 minutes ago, Aimblack said:

@Emerald IMO educating ourselves is probably the start. Having a solid foundation of climate science and actively spreading and embodying that message by sharing it through art, comedy, books. Another angle would be to make a shift from people based to policy based. Instead of talking and focusing on people we should focus on specific policies that address the situation we are in. I hope I'm getting across what I mean because I can see how making the distinction "policies" and "people" can seem arbitrary and nitpicky...but it makes total sense in my head I swear xD 

I agree on the focus toward these things. That's the way that the people in power come to change the way that they run their businesses. The people need to change first for the people in power to have to adapt to them. Because the people in power derive their power from the people who are willing to support them. And this is true for business owners and policy makers alike. 

But I ultimately think that we're just talking about different angles of the same issue. 


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Remember that people below stage Green don't have much concern for environmental issues because their mind is preoccupied with more selfish things.

So the root solution to climate change is to raise more people to Green cognitive development. Then, from that, the rest of the external solutions will follow.

A Green populace will vote for green politicians and green energy.

Climate change is really a problem of excessive Orange. As we can clearly see with Trump, who is in such denial about it.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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@Emerald Yes I realized that from your last post but it was good for me to actually flesh it out and try to articulate my stance. Thanks :D

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On 12/4/2018 at 1:34 AM, Leo Gura said:

Remember that people below stage Green don't have much concern for environmental issues because their mind is preoccupied with more selfish things.

So the root solution to climate change is to raise more people to Green cognitive development. Then, from that, the rest of the external solutions will follow.

A Green populace will vote for green politicians and green energy.

Climate change is really a problem of excessive Orange. As we can clearly see with Trump, who is in such denial about it.

But the thing is that this human made effect maybe even has positive effect for us, not negative, if we are near cold cyclical phase, then having carbon dioxide in atmosphere will make this cycle less cold, which is good for us. 

Edited by purerogue

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@purerogue And maybe if you were slapped upside the head it might be good for you.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@purerogue And maybe if you were slapped upside the head it might be good for you.

:D Maybe , who knows, anyway it is not as huge problem, have some trust in future. 

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@purerogue Millions of people will die, but okay.


You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity.

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1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

@purerogue Millions of people will die, but okay.

How do you know it, do you have understanding of how cyclical changes happen and how this will have effect on them, millions more might die if we deal with this "problem".

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